God Make Me Stop!

[ChloeTzang]

Name some: I'm only looking at a few in my bookcases here...

Robert Heinlein for sure
Georgette Heyer
Doris Lessing
Elspeth Huxley
Mary Renault
Rosemary Sutcliff
Olivia Manning
Paul Scott

 

[NOIRTRASH]

Shakespeare! OIKETTE!!

 

[SamScribble]

Shakespeare! OIKETTE!!

James, did you just suggest that Chloe was an oikette? Or did I not understand that last post? I'm hoping that it was the latter. I can be a bit slow to catch on sometimes. Put it down to age.

And how are you anyway?

 

[NOIRTRASH]

If you want a serious debate, you have to stick to the rules and not change them as you go along. This is what you said earlier:



There is a WORLD of difference between saying "authors fail after their 6th book" and "I cant name one who got better over time"

Now, you challenge me to name some:



I have already done so!



You completely ignored this previously and now you pretend I never posted it. Explain yourself please and furthermore, I think an apology would not be out of place.

Lemme share a powerful communication tool(s) that work well.

People cant resist ass-kissing and rude challenge. And they hate arrogant confidence such as my claim. And I devoutly believe I'm right if we tested every writer's wares. Most writers suck and get worse as time passes. Most writers learn nothing from writing. To keep things interesting (to me) I flatter and toss dead cats thru the window to bait people to enhanced participation. No one responds to polite tutorials. All are Masters of the Universe who diss everything but flattery and dead cats. I respect you and Sam. I don't pat either of you on the head. I strive not to insult either of you. An d I try and manipulate both to enhamced participation....for my enjoyment.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

James, did you just suggest that Chloe was an oikette? Or did I not understand that last post? I'm hoping that it was the latter. I can be a bit slow to catch on sometimes. Put it down to age.

And how are you anyway?

Wise guy.

My fingers and the keys aren't on the same planet anymore. Every sentence is a major challenge for me. The problem work is PILETTE. Much of the time modest words like THE end up YJR. My touch typing is a key off, one way or the other.

CHLOE is a lady and a scholar.

 

[ChloeTzang]

CHLOE is a lady and a scholar.

Lol. Why thank you. I'd debate the scholar definitely. I read a lot but I can't debate like you guys. And I admire the way you l toss ideas and dead catz out. My own opinions don't have much behind them except, well, opinions.

Modesty aside, I think there are definity authors that havs worked continually to improve their craft. Heinlein was undoubtedly one. There are others and whether they improved or not is a good question. You could happily argue that Heinlein just got more pretentious with age. Now i'm going to go back and skim thru a few of those onez I listed v or some examples.

Take Olivia Manning. I think the Levant trilogy is better written than the Balkan trilogy. Subjective opinion of course.

 

[NicoleZ]

Lemme share a powerful communication tool(s) that work well.

People cant resist ass-kissing and rude challenge. And they hate arrogant confidence such as my claim. And I devoutly believe I'm right if we tested every writer's wares. Most writers suck and get worse as time passes. Most writers learn nothing from writing. To keep things interesting (to me) I flatter and toss dead cats thru the window to bait people to enhanced participation. No one responds to polite tutorials. All are Masters of the Universe who diss everything but flattery and dead cats. I respect you and Sam. I don't pat either of you on the head. I strive not to insult either of you. An d I try and manipulate both to enhamced participation....for my enjoyment.

Now we're talking!

The problem here is not your observation, but a) your interpretation, and b) failure to define what you mean by good/bad/better/fail. Let me help you!

What I think you're after is creativity and freshness of plot, not language skills or story-telling ability, i.e. what you're really trying to say is that after their 6th novel, most writers run out of imagination and begin to repeat themselves.

If this is indeed what you meant, then you're correct - as long as you are careful to say that "After their 6th novel most writers, but far from all, tend to lose the creative spark and begin to repeat themselves."


PS. I'm perfectly aware of how powerful a tool is is the cocksure statement. From what my parents told me, I started using it in the second grade to such an extent and so successfully that many of my teachers developed an active dislike for me - especially the "less gifted ones", they told me once I was a grown-up.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

Now we're talking!

The problem here is not your observation, but a) your interpretation, and b) failure to define what you mean by good/bad/better/fail. Let me help you!

What I think you're after is creativity and freshness of plot, not language skills or story-telling ability, i.e. what you're really trying to say is that after their 6th novel, most writers run out of imagination and begin to repeat themselves.

If this is indeed what you meant, then you're correct - as long as you are careful to say that "After their 6th novel most writers, but far from all, tend to lose the creative spark and begin to repeat themselves."


PS. I'm perfectly aware of how powerful a tool is is the cocksure statement. From what my parents told me, I started using it in the second grade to such an extent and so successfully that many of my teachers developed an active dislike for me - especially the "less gifted ones", they told me once I was a grown-up.

I contend writers grow lazy and cut corners as time passes. Failure is almost forced on writers, because novelty is as scares as new prime numbers. I tease PILETTE for writing 900 tales of Joe sodomizing Moe. He alters the setting and the furniture they copulate upon, but the story is always the same. For all intents and purposes Stephem Kings CELL is the same as Mathiesons I AM LEGEND. King shoulda retired with MISERY.

 

[NicoleZ]

I contend writers grow lazy and cut corners as time passes. Failure is almost forced on writers, because novelty is as scares as new prime numbers. I tease PILETTE for writing 900 tales of Joe sodomizing Moe. He alters the setting and the furniture they copulate upon, but the story is always the same. For all intents and purposes Stephem Kings CELL is the same as Mathiesons I AM LEGEND. King shoulda retired with MISERY.

Well that depends upon what you consider the ultimate purpose of writing to be? If it's always to break new ground, it won't be long until you run out of fresh plots (pun) to explore. But if it's to provide a living or get the same bunch of people to tell you how clever you are over and over again, be it writing the same book as someone else or having Joe sodomise Moe the 903rd, 904th and 905th time,* who cares as long as it floats someone's boat!




* How about casting Joe as an astronaut who sleepwalks and in his dream sodomises Moe only to wake up and find that he's sodomised the toilet of Space Shuttle Atlantis and his dick is now stuck in vacuum?

 

[NOIRTRASH]

I deleted 10 early John D. MacDonald novels. His writing was hit and miss for all of the 1950s. The good is excellent, the other is mediocre.

 

[SamScribble]

I deleted 10 early John D. MacDonald novels. His writing was hit and miss for all of the 1950s. The good is excellent, the other is mediocre.

I agree with you about MacDonald. It was a long time ago, but I remember reading an early MacDonald book and thinking: this guy is terrific. And then I read another and thought that he was rubbish. But in the third one (that I read) he somehow came right again.

Being good all the time is not easy. (Oh, no. That was a 1970s campaign for Blue Nun wine, wasn't it? )

 

[NOIRTRASH]

I agree with you about MacDonald. It was a long time ago, but I remember reading an early MacDonald book and thinking: this guy is terrific. And then I read another and thought that he was rubbish. But in the third one (that I read) he somehow came right again.

Being good all the time is not easy. (Oh, no. That was a 1970s campaign for Blue Nun wine, wasn't it? )

Exactly. I keep a few of his early efforts, because theyre good writing. Talmage Powell published 6 or so hard crime novels set in Tampa in the 50s, and theyre good. MacDonald set his early efforts around Tampa. Even Ian Fleming set one Bond book in Tampa.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

Get this.

Last night I read a James Bond story in FOR YOUR EYES ONLY.

Bond is stalking some killers who assassinated Brit VIPs residing in Jamaica.

With me so far?

In the problem scene Bond is at the top of a hill where he discovers someone concealed in the bushes and headed to Bond's destination. Bond then crawls toward the mystery stalker and gets captured by that person.

I wanted to throw the Kindle across the room.

Its a serious WTF moment and is on my short list of reasons to condemn a story.

My list is short but includes the following summary executions of stories:
1. Any WTF moment.
2. Political Correctness.
3. Incoherent prose that resembles schizophrenic word salad.
4.Liberal use of adverbs and passive verbs.
5. Illogical sentences that defy understanding.

Generally whatever makes me think of James Joyce's FINEGANs WAKE. Anything on the far side of MARES EAT OATS.

What was Ian Fleming thinking?

 

[NOIRTRASH]

I used my Valentine Gift Card to buy 2 books.

THE HIGH WINDOW by Raymond Chandler
THE DANCE AT THE SLAUGHTERHOUSE by Lawrence Block

I read them in the past. Each completes its author collection.

No more dice rolls with new writers.