Politics and Porn

[KimGordon67]

Anybody else notice how when somebody presents multiple points against Nezhul's arguments, he'll pick one or two to respond to - whichever seems easiest - and ignore the rest?

And as far as I've seen, NEVER provides any real evidence for his arguments, beyond his apparently considerable 'life experience'.

Nezhul, while we all love research where n=1, because of the awesome 100% findings, in the trade we tend to refer to that as 'anecdotal' and don't take it terribly seriously.

 

[KimGordon67]

I have a lot of live experience?
Excuse me, but I don't really think that it is constructive to talk about women with a man, who thinks he will frighten the girl and creep her out if he approaches her.
That's just a sad life you have there.

I told you every single woman I know works on the basis of engaging in risk assessment every time a random guy approaches you. Every. Single. One of them. And I know a fair few women. Why don't we trust that what they all do is, in fact, how many women react to this stuff (except, apparently, the ones in Russia for some reason that you probably know better than me). There's a whole online 'movement' dedicated to explaining to men how telling us we're pretty when you don't know us doesn't really do a whole for us (except, apparently, in Russia). Why do you find this so difficult to believe?

Strange guys approaching us freaks most of us out. There's so much evidence to supports this, it's ridiculous. If you truly love women as much as you say you do, just smile at them ... we can pretty much mostly handle that. Anything else is a potential risk as far as we're concerned, so it would be awesome if you could keep your thoughts about people's prettiness to yourself.

 

[Nezhul]

Here's my original post:

politely ask her name and tell her you liked her and would like to get to know her better.

I don't use the word "pretty", I use the word "I like you and would like to know you better".

"Pretty" is the word Bramblethorn used when twisting my suggestion so it could sound as creepy as possible.

If that's too bad for you too, then, well, yeah. I guess people are just not built to start new relationships anywhere outside their social circle (or specifically dedicated places), because it apparently freaks people out.

 

[KimGordon67]

Here's my original post:
I don't use the word "pretty", I use the word "I like you and would like to know you better".

"Pretty" is the word Bramblethorn used when twisting my suggestion so it could sound as creepy as possible.

If that's too bad for you too, then, well, yeah. I guess people are just not built to start new relationships anywhere outside their social circle (or specifically dedicated places), because it apparently freaks people out.

'I like you' when that's based on solely seeing her in the street is actually more creepy.
I don't seem to have had any problem starting relationships and NONE of them have been based on approaching or being approached by strangers in public places.

 

[Nezhul]

I've had 5 relationships and 4 of them I started in public places.
I studied (and work) in a predominantly male environment, so I can only meet people outdoors.

I've asked a few of my woman friends and the consensus was that it depends on how the guy looks and how he approaches.
Which is the case with every approach to any person, really. Goes without saying you should work on presenting yourself before going out to meet people.

But it's perfectly fine to start a relationship on the street.

I stand by my words. I've been given a cold shoulder more than a few times, but I've never saw someone scared or creeped out by me. And I'm a good judge of emotions.
This approach works, so I'm going to keep using it. I can't account for everyone's perspective.

 

[Pockle]

I've read through this entire thread for the first time this morning.

Wow.

Nezhul is right - this is the way its been done for hundreds of years.

Probably thousands of years.

My first thought on reading Kim Gordon was to wonder what we're becoming if she/he is in any way representative of society as a whole.

Irrespective of sexual preference labelling, we're in trouble as a species when one gender "engages in risk management" when simply approached by the other gender.

Sad is the only word I can think of to describe this.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Here's my original post:

politely ask her name and tell her you liked her and would like to get to know her better.

I don't use the word "pretty", I use the word "I like you and would like to know you better".

"Pretty" is the word Bramblethorn used when twisting my suggestion so it could sound as creepy as possible.

Hmmmmmm. Let's take another look at that thread, shall we? (Posts edited for length, emphasis, and to clarify attribution of a nested quote.)

Early in the thread, you wrote:

Don't say you want sex from her! Say that you like her and that she's beautiful and stuff.

I'm pretty sure you know that "beautiful" is a synonym for "pretty", so you're just splitting hairs here.

If a random women walked up to me on the street, asked for my name and said she liked me - then I'd be flattered as hell. As most women would.

...

Also when you say "you like her" it doesn't mean "marry me". It means that you like how she looks. You are obviously complimenting her appearance, style, posture, body language and other visual elements, because it's quite obvious you don't know her persona to complement that.

In other words: you are obviously telling her that she's pretty.

I responded to your posts, summarising that approach as "you're pretty, what's your name?" I felt that was a reasonable paraphrase. Apparently you did too, because rather than disputing the paraphrase you defended the approach as I'd described it:

When you say "you're pretty, what's your name?" to a woman who doesn't know you, you are not making her feel flattered. You're putting her in a situation where she has to do an on-the-spot risk assessment. That's not a fun experience. If you like women, don't do this.

I don't know where you are from, but here, in Russia, that works perfectly fine. And women smile and respond positively. Of course you get turned down a lot, but mostly because they may already have a boyfriend or something. And let me tell you, as far ass social interactions go, Russia is not nearly the most open to communication culture, and a pretty gloomy at that.

I've got several phone numbers in my life that way, and as far as I know, it's not an uncommon thing to do.

So, no, you didn't use the exact word "pretty" yourself. But when I paraphrased as "you're pretty, what's your name?" you accepted that as a description of your own approach, and defended it.

Somebody is indeed "twisting" here, but it ain't me.

If that's too bad for you too, then, well, yeah. I guess people are just not built to start new relationships anywhere outside their social circle (or specifically dedicated places), because it apparently freaks people out.

Kim is married with kids. I've been with my partner for almost twenty years. According to your profile you're single and trying to find a girlfriend. Are you sure you're qualified to be lecturing the two of us about how courtship works?

 

[KimGordon67]

I've read through this entire thread for the first time this morning.

Wow.

Nezhul is right - this is the way its been done for hundreds of years.

Probably thousands of years.

My first thought on reading Kim Gordon was to wonder what we're becoming if she/he is in any way representative of society as a whole.

Irrespective of sexual preference labelling, we're in trouble as a species when one gender "engages in risk management" when simply approached by the other gender.

Sad is the only word I can think of to describe this.

It IS sad. But I can tell you straight, it's not the fault of women. Obviously 'not all men' either. But the only people who have groped me on public transport or pulled me off the steet at night have been men who have started by 'complimenting ' me on my appearance. If I'm missing out on awesome relationships in the process of mitigating the risk of being sexually assaulted again, I'm ok with that.

Why do you and Nezhul find it so hard to believe me and the mytiad women who say the same thing?

 

[KimGordon67]

Hmmmmmm. Let's take another look at that thread, shall we? (Posts edited for length, emphasis, and to clarify attribution of a nested quote.)

Early in the thread, you wrote:



I'm pretty sure you know that "beautiful" is a synonym for "pretty", so you're just splitting hairs here.



In other words: you are obviously telling her that she's pretty.

I responded to your posts, summarising that approach as "you're pretty, what's your name?" I felt that was a reasonable paraphrase. Apparently you did too, because rather than disputing the paraphrase you defended the approach as I'd described it:



So, no, you didn't use the exact word "pretty" yourself. But when I paraphrased as "you're pretty, what's your name?" you accepted that as a description of your own approach, and defended it.

Somebody is indeed "twisting" here, but it ain't me.



Kim is married with kids. I've been with my partner for almost twenty years. According to your profile you're single and trying to find a girlfriend. Are you sure you're qualified to be lecturing the two of us about how courtship works?

I'm scared to mention how many sexual partners I've had for fear of starting a whole new tirade. But let's just say that the whole 'ignoring random guys on the street' approach has worked out fine. And they mostly haven't been guys I worked or studied with.

 

[Blue]

Kim is married with kids. I've been with my partner for almost twenty years. According to your profile you're single and trying to find a girlfriend. Are you sure you're qualified to be lecturing the two of us about how courtship works?

I'm single with no social skills and I can tell a poor mating ritual when I see it.
I think it's more a case of this...

~ ~ Edit ~ ~

The way it's been done for hundreds of years/multiple millenia is primarily through gradual development of interpersonal relationships, which would be why we've got ingrained psychological mechanisms to do just that. Not by reproducing with the first stranger who expresses an interest.

On a side note; I think it's actually odd that Pockle and Nehzul don't inherently see the dubiousness of a stranger approaching a person and making flirtatious comments. If Aphrodite herself walked up to me out of the blue and began making compliments I'm positive that the first thing my brain would do is search for the quid pro quo. It's far too perculier an action to not have an agenda behind it.

 

[Nezhul]

Kim is married with kids. I've been with my partner for almost twenty years. According to your profile you're single and trying to find a girlfriend. Are you sure you're qualified to be lecturing the two of us about how courtship works?

That's the problem. This boils down to none of you have any relevant experience of dating new people and approaching new partners for DECADES now.

Maybe what you are telling me was a thing in the eighties or something.

Today you can safely walk up to a person you like and talk to him or her. You can tell her you like her and ask for a cell phone so you can call her back later and arrange a date.
It's not a big deal.

Also, my profile - I never update it, I filled it in back when I started using lit. I'm too lazy to even set up an avatar, even though I want one. =P
I think I changed my signature once or twice... I don't even pay attention to personal details, it's not like it's a meeting site or something.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I've read through this entire thread for the first time this morning.

Wow.

Nezhul is right - this is the way its been done for hundreds of years.

Probably thousands of years.

Not really, no.

I'm not going to give a comprehensive survey of Courtship Through Ye Ages, but it's hard to think of any place/period in history hundreds or thousands of years ago where strange men walking up to women with a "hey I like you, what's your name?" was the norm for courtship.

Obviously the details vary depending on time, place, and social class, but as a generalisation: women were expected to marry, as a woman your future quality of life depended very much on making a good match, and dalliance with strange guys did very bad things to your marriage prospects. (If you even got to make those calls yourself, rather than having your parents pick a match on your behalf.)

Besides, pre-industrial folk tended to live in smaller communities where there simply weren't a lot of strangers; you were quite likely to marry somebody you'd known since childhood.

There are certainly plenty of stories about women who are wooed by handsome strangers... but those stories tend to end badly for the women. They're cautionary tales, not SOP.

My first thought on reading Kim Gordon was to wonder what we're becoming if she/he is in any way representative of society as a whole.

We're (slowly) becoming a society that respects women and values their happiness equally to that of men. I'm good with that.

Irrespective of sexual preference labelling, we're in trouble as a species when one gender "engages in risk management" when simply approached by the other gender.

I appreciate that it's unpleasant for guys to think that women might view them as a potential risk. It is more unpleasant, by orders of magnitude, for women to have to think of men as potential risks.

Sad is the only word I can think of to describe this.

I don't think anybody's happy about this state of affairs.

 

[Bramblethorn]

That's the problem. This boils down to none of you have any relevant experience of dating new people and approaching new partners for DECADES now.

Wrong again. You really need to pay more attention to what people write instead of making assumptions about things they didn't say.

I've mentioned several times on the Lit forums that my partner and I are poly. Meaning that she's okay with me dating other people and vice versa.

As it happens, the last time I dated somebody new was about six months ago. I'm pretty sure the dating world hasn't changed THAT drastically in the last one-twentieth of a decade.

 

[Nezhul]

Wrong again. You really need to pay more attention to what people write instead of making assumptions about things they didn't say.

I've mentioned several times on the Lit forums that my partner and I are poly. Meaning that she's okay with me dating other people and vice versa.

As it happens, the last time I dated somebody new was about six months ago. I'm pretty sure the dating world hasn't changed THAT drastically in the last one-twentieth of a decade.

How old are you? How old was she?
Dating world does not so much change as refresh and outgrow.

Another generation - another rules. Doesn't mean the older generation adjusts to those rules.

Judging by what you previously said, I'd assume you are at least fourty. This means that either you date women of approximately your age, or that, naturally, if you approach a 20-yo girl - you would look like a total creep. Even though a man of her age would not.

If I was to approach an 18 year old college student, I would look too old for her, and she will probably get nervous, correct.
If she's at least 25, the age difference is negligible and it would be fine.

Also, I don't know what you think of yourself, but I'm not actually interested in you enough to remember facts about your personal life.

instead of making assumptions about things they didn't say.

YOU are making assumptions about how the entire woman population all around the world THINKS. Or at the very least - the majority of them.
Don't be a hypocrite and point out how I assume things about you.

 

[La damnee elle la licorne]

 

[Blue]

How old are you? How old was she?
Dating world does not so much change as refresh and outgrow.

Another generation - another rules. Doesn't mean the older generation adjusts to those rules.

Judging by what you previously said, I'd assume you are at least fourty. This means that either you date women of approximately your age, or that, naturally, if you approach a 20-yo girl - you would look like a total creep. Even though a man of her age would not.

If I was to approach an 18 year old college student, I would look too old for her, and she will probably get nervous, correct.
If she's at least 25, the age difference is negligible and it would be fine.

Also, I don't know what you think of yourself, but I'm not actually interested in you enough to remember facts about your personal life.

YOU are making assumptions about how the entire woman population all around the world THINKS. Or at the very least - the majority of them.
Don't be a hypocrite and point out how I assume things about you.

Well I'm in that age range and I don't know of one single woman who I can imagine responding to a spontaneous proposition of affection without thinking the approacher is at least a creep to one degree or another. The only times I've ever seen that happen is in poorly written anime.

I don't think this is a case of unjustifiable stereotyping on Bramble's part. I think you're fabricating a supposedly normal behaviour that doesn't actually exist. Or certainly isn't as commonplace as you imagine.

 

[La damnee elle la licorne]

 

[La damnee elle la licorne]

 

[La damnee elle la licorne]

 

[MeekMe]

I'm not quoting anyone or getting too deep here, but as someone with life experience as a woman, I make a risk assessment with male strangers (in some settings). The majority of the time things are fine and it's a complete relief to me when they go away on their own (I've found that sometimes they don't). When I smile it's because I'm nervous and I know the best way to diffuse a possible bad situation is for me to be "nice." Not every woman does this, but enough do it that it really IS a sad thing. It means enough women have already had bad experiences that have shaped their perceptions and how they choose to protect themselves. Women have been followed, harassed, and groped in public spaces. Some women have been beaten or murdered in the street for saying no.

And no, I don't live my life afraid to go outside or be around men. But in order for me to do that I have to take into account where I am, what time is it, how am I dressed, who am I with, will there be alcohol, etc.

 

[La damnee elle la licorne]

 

[Nezhul]

I am always amazed when a woman tells me she has never been compromised or suffered in ANY way, and obviously delighted about this.

So this does happen?

I don't know, maybe the culture in the west is screwed so that women get molested by guys approaching them.

It happens here, in Russia, too, fo course - there are always sickos. But not nearly as much as to cause some kind of scare reaction in women, I don't think.

 

[La damnee elle la licorne]

 

[KimGordon67]

So this does happen?

I don't know, maybe the culture in the west is screwed so that women get molested by guys approaching them.

It happens here, in Russia, too, fo course - there are always sickos. But not nearly as much as to cause some kind of scare reaction in women, I don't think.

It doesn't matter that it's only a small proportion of the population - risk management means we have to assume it could be ANY man. A huge number of variables come into play when making that assessment but we definitely have to make it EVERY time a strange guy approaches us.

Also (a) I started a new relationship a bit over a year ago - so months, not decades. And (b) I do work in this area with people in their early 20s, so am well aware of what's changed. (It's surprisingly little, except for the influence of porn ... because exposure to media actually does affect people's behaviour.)

 

[KimGordon67]

None of us have experience dating new people?

Be mindful of making absolute statements when you do not know people's lives. Your statement is clearly disputable by posts from one of those you seek to discredit .