The NFL, concussions, and the importance of Dave Duerson's suicide last Thursday

[Hard_Rom]

Check with 19th century baseball history and 20th century college football and basketball: It's full of gambling, gamblers, and other miscreants. Then there's the sheets and newspapers publishing game odds and team injury reports. C'mon, you can't really believe gambling is something new?


American football is full of coaches who teach poor techniques, tackling, blocking, etc. It's still full of Neanderthal thinking of "oh it's just a ding. Put some dirt on it and you'll be better."

Up here we don't have the gambling history like the US. No Las Vegas style casinos until changes in the 70s to the Criminal Code. Betting on the ponies was the big thing.

Small time criminal gambling and a bit of recreational stuff maybe. In 1892, the Canadian Criminal Code declared a complete ban on all gambling activities.

 

[RjThoughts]

Up here we don't have the gambling history like the US. No Las Vegas style casinos until changes in the 70s to the Criminal Code. Betting on the ponies was the big thing.

Small time criminal gambling and a bit of recreational stuff maybe. In 1892, the Canadian Criminal Code declared a complete ban on all gambling activities.

Boxing had its gambling.
Hockey
Baseball
Rugby

Wherever, whenever, two teams meet, there was gambling. It's not new. It's been going on since the Jesuits saw the Haudenosaunee play lacrosse in the St Lawrence Valley.

 

[ifrtbttrflys]

Again: everyone who has spent any significant time playing in organized football above the junior high level has some degree of CTE, which is the latest clinical definition of even mild head trauma. No one can play football for any significant time without incurring at least mild head trauma. So, virtually all NFLers have some degree of head trauma, which is astronomically a higher rate than the general population.

But the general population has roughly a 100% higher suicide rate than NFLers, quite relatively speaking.

If CTE was the prominent contributing factor in NFL suicides as you obviously wish to make it, why is the NFL suicide rate only half of what the general population's is when NFLers possess overwhelmingly more head trauma than the general population does?

The Carrie Fisher-Debbie Reynolds deaths led me to similar "victim" contemplation this past week...

I could never figure out any rational reason why Carrie Fisher used to be so mad at her mom. I mean, I never heard of Reynolds doing a Joan Crawford on her kids, but I did read of them growing up in a fairy tale lifestyle - can you imagine growing up with every convenience and luxury, birthdays celebrated on motion picture studio lots, etc.?

It always seem to me that spoiled little rebellious brat Carrie Fisher's epic drug and alcohol abuse had everything to do with her obviously unbalanced and unhinged animosity toward her mother. Reynolds has related what a nightmare those times were.

And then, out of nowhere at that time, "bipolar" was pronounced as the mental disease Carrie Fisher was suffering from, putting completely aside all the chronicled life negatives chronic drug and alcohol abuse provide. All Fisher's animosity was finally excused: she was mentally ill, her chronic abuse of drugs and alcohol no more than a secondary consideration.

Funny thing is, though, Fisher's mental "improvement" didn't actually begin until she quit chronically abusing drugs and alcohol.

Salaam most certainly, too, has an excuse (CTE), but his cause of death is exactly the same as would've been Fisher's if she wouldn't of overcome her chronic drug and alcohol addictions as Salaam never could.

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

Again: everyone who has spent any significant time playing in organized football above the junior high level has some degree of CTE, which is the latest clinical definition of even mild head trauma. No one can play football for any significant time without incurring at least mild head trauma. So, virtually all NFLers have some degree of head trauma, which is astronomically a higher rate than the general population.

But the general population has roughly a 100% higher suicide rate than NFLers, quite relatively speaking.

If CTE was the prominent contributing factor in NFL suicides as you obviously wish to make it, why is the NFL suicide rate only half of what the general population's is when NFLers possess overwhelmingly more head trauma than the general population does?

The Carrie Fisher-Debbie Reynolds deaths led me to similar "victim" contemplation this past week...

I could never figure out any rational reason why Carrie Fisher used to be so mad at her mom. I mean, I never heard of Reynolds doing a Joan Crawford on her kids, but I did read of them growing up in a fairy tale lifestyle - can you imagine growing up with every convenience and luxury, birthdays celebrated on motion picture studio lots, etc.?

It always seem to me that spoiled little rebellious brat Carrie Fisher's epic drug and alcohol abuse had everything to do with her obviously unbalanced and unhinged animosity toward her mother. Reynolds has related what a nightmare those times were.

And then, out of nowhere at that time, "bipolar" was pronounced as the mental disease Carrie Fisher was suffering from, putting completely aside all the chronicled life negatives chronic drug and alcohol abuse provide. All Fisher's animosity was finally excused: she was mentally ill, her chronic abuse of drugs and alcohol no more than a secondary consideration.

Funny thing is, though, Fisher's mental "improvement" didn't actually begin until she quit chronically abusing drugs and alcohol.

Salaam most certainly, too, has an excuse (CTE), but his cause of death is exactly the same as would've been Fisher's if she wouldn't of overcome her chronic drug and alcohol addictions as Salaam never could.

This can't be a serious post.

 

[Hard_Rom]

This can't be a serious post.

It's an attempt a serious post by a stupid person.

Certainly drug and alcohol abuse on top of chronic trauma is a very bad thing. I believe he was a major pothead before suffering injury.

Chronic trauma is bad enough. But toss in drug abuse and you're a goner.

Then it becomes and egg and chicken thing. Chronic trauma leads to abuse?

As for singling out a celebrity. Who doesn't have a black sheep in the family? %50 of marriages end in divorce. Lots of personal drama for all especially kids. And who would have wanted paparazzi following them around in the late teens and twenties? Many celebrities are class A types. Lots of pressure from themselves, their industry and the public. Some manage some don't. Just like your average Jo.

 

[RjThoughts]

This can't be a serious post.

Serious NFL shill. I've read those before, numerous times.

The poster neglected to acknowledge that not all CTE sufferers commit suicide. Some may have memory loss, some may have Alzheimers, some may have ALS. The monolopy doesn't acknowledge this.

 

[ifrtbttrflys]

Serious NFL shill. I've read those before, numerous times.

The poster neglected to acknowledge that not all CTE sufferers commit suicide. Some may have memory loss, some may have Alzheimers, some may have ALS. The monolopy doesn't acknowledge this.

The NFL could completely cease to exist at this very instant and it's demise wouldn't cause me any care at all.

So much for such an amateur non-point.

Again: Salaam himself publicly blamed his chronic drug use as the reason he was a bust in the NFL. And he never stopped chronically abusing drugs and alcohol after he busted out of the NFL. He was totally loaded when he shot himself in the head.

Every NFLer has some degree of CTE, while the general public has much less head trauma instances, percentage wise. Yet, NFLers suffer less percentages of each of those irrelevant "may" possibilities you offered up than the general public, percentage wise.

If CTE was the coverall culprit you apologists need to insist it is, the hard statistics would bear that out. As it is, NFLers commit suicide, suffer memory loss, have Alzheimers and ALS at less percentage rates than the general public.

That's because most NFLers aren't habitually chronic abusers of drugs and alcohol, whereas more (percentage wise) of the general public are. Most professionals fully and naturally understand the almost total negative affect drug and alcohol abuse has on on the field performance.

The deadly toll habitually chronic drug abuse takes has claimed plenty of kills this year from junkie Prince to pothead Salaam to cokehead Princess Leia.

 

[RoryN]

...everyone who has spent any significant time playing in organized football above the junior high level has some degree of CTE, which is the latest clinical definition of even mild head trauma.

Cite source.

...virtually all NFLers have some degree of head trauma

Cite source. Kthx!

 

[ifrtbttrflys]

Our brains are like globs of jello lying in the bowls our skulls serve as. Every time that jello is radically jostled, every time our skulls come to an immediate stop and our brains slam against it, trauma to varying degrees results. That's just a biological, medical fact.

You can do your own math.

 

[RoryN]

I've got nothing.

That's what we thought. Thanks!

 

[Hard_Rom]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NFL_players_with_chronic_traumatic_encephalopathy

 

[RjThoughts]

The NFL could completely cease to exist at this very instant and it's demise wouldn't cause me any care at all.

So much for such an amateur non-point.

Again: Salaam himself publicly blamed his chronic drug use as the reason he was a bust in the NFL. And he never stopped chronically abusing drugs and alcohol after he busted out of the NFL. He was totally loaded when he shot himself in the head.

Every NFLer has some degree of CTE, while the general public has much less head trauma instances, percentage wise. Yet, NFLers suffer less percentages of each of those irrelevant "may" possibilities you offered up than the general public, percentage wise.

If CTE was the coverall culprit you apologists need to insist it is, the hard statistics would bear that out. As it is, NFLers commit suicide, suffer memory loss, have Alzheimers and ALS at less percentage rates than the general public.

That's because most NFLers aren't habitually chronic abusers of drugs and alcohol, whereas more (percentage wise) of the general public are. Most professionals fully and naturally understand the almost total negative affect drug and alcohol abuse has on on the field performance.

The deadly toll habitually chronic drug abuse takes has claimed plenty of kills this year from junkie Prince to pothead Salaam to cokehead Princess Leia.

If you don't care about the Monopoly why are you so angrily regurgitating their deflection statistics?

 

[ifrtbttrflys]

Top level racing drivers are another group who suffer much greater instances of head trauma compared to the general population, and who also suffer much less instances of the aforementioned maladies than the general population, too.

I.e., and just to take the current most famous example: if Dale Earnhart, Jr., chronically abused drugs and alcohol like Salaam did, his career would be over right now and it'd most likely just be a matter of time before he offed himself, too (imaging how his unique personality would be fueled by chronic drug and alcohol abuse).

Instead, even though he's suffered at least as significant head trauma as Salaam ever did and most NFLers ever do, he's recovered and ready to race the first race of the new season, something he couldn't possibly do if he was a chronic drug and alcohol abuser like Salaam factually was.

Most drivers who reach the top levels of racing have experienced head trauma that would make NFLers feel lucky. There's not too much comparison when your brain bucket is flying around at 200 mph and suddenly meets something that hardly gives at all.

I'm a data guy: when NFLers or racing drivers - who experience head trauma at far greater rates than the general population - stay far under the general population's rates of suicide, et al, then I have no choice but to stay away from accusing head trauma all by itself of doing anything that just doesn't add up.

 

[Hard_Rom]

Lower level of race car drivers are more likely to suffer head trauma. NASCAR has huge head restraint devices and F1 has parts that are meant to be sheared off in an accident.

Local track stock car racers in 70s Cutlass and Buicks have no such means. Many don't even have racing seats. Just a roll cage. You get in a wreck and your head bangs around big time. Seen quite a few looking dazed after a good wreck.

There were incidents at a New England area track were drivers were dying. Turned out that the suspension parts added to cars were too strong. Too much of the force of a crash was being transmitted to head.

Cheesy recreation but you can see how Earnhardt hit the wall almost head on.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1i47rk_dale-earnhardt-sr-fatal-crash-stop-motion_webcam

 

[RjThoughts]

Top level racing drivers are another group who suffer much greater instances of head trauma compared to the general population, and who also suffer much less instances of the aforementioned maladies than the general population, too.

I.e., and just to take the current most famous example: if Dale Earnhart, Jr., chronically abused drugs and alcohol like Salaam did, his career would be over right now and it'd most likely just be a matter of time before he offed himself, too (imaging how his unique personality would be fueled by chronic drug and alcohol abuse).

Instead, even though he's suffered at least as significant head trauma as Salaam ever did and most NFLers ever do, he's recovered and ready to race the first race of the new season, something he couldn't possibly do if he was a chronic drug and alcohol abuser like Salaam factually was.

Most drivers who reach the top levels of racing have experienced head trauma that would make NFLers feel lucky. There's not too much comparison when your brain bucket is flying around at 200 mph and suddenly meets something that hardly gives at all.

I'm a data guy: when NFLers or racing drivers - who experience head trauma at far greater rates than the general population - stay far under the general population's rates of suicide, et al, then I have no choice but to stay away from accusing head trauma all by itself of doing anything that just doesn't add up.

The thing about drugs and alcohol in top levels of NASCAR, IndyCar, and NHRA: other drivers will NEVER accept it! NEVER!

You're analogy doesn't hold water since impared drivers are NOT allowed on tracks.

 

[ifrtbttrflys]

I've personally known numbers of alcoholic, pothead, cokehead and junkie drivers, owners and mechanics who are renowned at the top levels of NASCAR, Indy car racing, NHRA, and IMSA. One of the drivers is still serving an original life sentence for trafficking; more than one of the drivers died from their chronic abuse. To truly cement the analogy: one of them is also a legendary NFLer. And, in fact, other drivers, owners and mechanics were fully aware of those realities when they competed against each other at the track.

IMSA and the NHRA, in particular, were literally fully blown on the white stuff for years. You'd be stunned to learn the "names" who not only blew down the quarter mile while blasted, but also financed much of their entire operations by dealing the stuff.

But, none of that is actually the point, which is: NFLers and racing drivers sufferer far, far more instances of head trauma than the general public, yet experience far, far lower suicide rates than the general public.

 

[RjThoughts]

I've personally known numbers of alcoholic, pothead, cokehead and junkie drivers, owners and mechanics who are renowned at the top levels of NASCAR, Indy car racing, NHRA, and IMSA. One of the drivers is still serving an original life sentence for trafficking; more than one of the drivers died from their chronic abuse. To truly cement the analogy: one of them is also a legendary NFLer. And, in fact, other drivers, owners and mechanics were fully aware of those realities when they competed against each other at the track.

IMSA and the NHRA, in particular, were literally fully blown on the white stuff for years. You'd be stunned to learn the "names" who not only blew down the quarter mile while blasted, but also financed much of their entire operations by dealing the stuff.

But, none of that is actually the point, which is: NFLers and racing drivers sufferer far, far more instances of head trauma than the general public, yet experience far, far lower suicide rates than the general public.

As asked before:Citations please.

 

[Hard_Rom]

http://www.sportingnews.com/list/46...ned-arrests-jeremy-mayfield-tyler-walker-bria

I was able to find a page with a list of some Nascar drivers suspended or known to use.

As in any profession, association or social group you are going to find users. It's a high paid high risk job. But at the top of the profession with such speeds and money involved I doubt it is rampant.

I've been involved in low rank stock car and drag racing. Did know a few chronics who smoked in drag racing but not in stock cars. That seemed to self-police. No one wants to get on the track with a drunk or stoned competitor in such close quarters. Saw a few teams sent away from having beer in the pits.

Never smoked while I was racing. The stuff slows you down mentally and physically. Hard to nail a good light after lighting up.

Maybe way way back in the old days drinking played a part. But today safety is so much more important. And again the money in top level stuff says no to drugs. Get caught and there goes mega-buck sponsorship deals.

But of course humans fuck up.

Since 2002, drug abuse has cost the NFL 945 suspensions and over $68 million in fines.
http://drugabuse.com/featured/the-cost-of-drugs-in-the-nfl/

 

[ifrtbttrflys]

A few of the dead guys I had in mind above are Mike Mosley, Rick Muther, and Tim Richmond. The Mos was infamously a chronic pothead, as was Muther, too, but Muther also was a notorious cokehead. Between them they had 25 Indy 500 starts. 1980 Indianapolis 500 Rookie of the Year Tim Richmond loved the white stuff and also was fond of injecting once in a while (that I firsthand knew of). I smoked pot with the Mos, free-based my one and only time with Muther, and it was a couple of party times with Timmy before he quit insisting I'd do drugs with him.

Richmond's drug use had a lot to do with his ultra quick but almost totally schizo driving behavior behind the wheel of an Indy car: he crashed so much in his first year he decided to go to NASCAR where he felt having a stock car with a full cage around him would be safer for his lifespan. He was right, and became a bigger star there. Tim died from AIDS which his family pronounced he caught from some unknown woman; many others felt he could've have just as easily caught it from a needle he was known to share from time to time.

1986 Indianapolis 500 Rookie of the Year and IMSA team owner and driver Randy Lanier is serving life without the possibility of parole for his trafficking activities. His IMSA pals the Whittington brothers, Bill and Don, are Indy car racing and IMSA veterans and convicted drug dealers and drug money launderers.

John Paul, Jr., is the youngest IMSA series champion ever and a veteran of 15 Indy 500s; he also won the 24 Hours of Daytona twice, and served two and a half years of a five year federal drug conviction.

And his dad, John Paul, Sr., who won the 24 Hours of Daytona co-driving with his son, was convicted of attempted first degree murder of a drugee who had turned informant on Paul, Sr.'s drug trafficking activity, and then later did more time for attempted prison escape, which earned him a cell at Leavenworth. He was paroled in 1999, and soon convinced a woman to sell everything she had and take off with him on a 5-year, around-the-world boating trip. The woman eventually disappeared, and after being questioned by police about it, Paul, Sr., disappeared himself, violating his parole. He hasn't been seen since.

The two NHRAers I referred to I won't name, because neither are dead or in jail or are fugitives. One of them, the legendary NFLer, I just did a little Googling on and I see he's still choosing to be mostly coy about the extent of his chronic drug use, though even while as an NFLer he was busted with the white stuff once and that in no way can be coyly concealed.

I was once in a dying relationship with a lady who was killing our relationship because of her increasing love of the white stuff, and before I fully managed to leave her she left me for this cokehead - so maybe I have some personal jackedupness about his deal . But probably not, because I remember seeing them walk into the lobby of a Las Vegas hotel arm-in-arm before an Indy car race, both their eyes white ice cold and clear and piercing, and realizing what a joy it was that she was his drugcase baggage now and not mine.

The other NHRAer I had in mind above I won't bust his bubble here, either, because 1) he's still alive, and 2) he was so totally smooth handling his love of cocaine that while everyone knew he was always usually wired, his beaming personality/charisma made hardly anyone care - which was truly admirable. Plus, he is no doubt one of the greatest Funny Car and Top Fuel drivers/owners of all time.

I was contracted to drive an IMSA GT entry for the 24 Hours of Daytona one year, and I flew to Ft. Lauderdale a couple of weeks before hand to get fitted to the car and to get to know the team, planning to stay there until race week. They had just opened the shop and the water hadn't yet been turned on, so when I had to take a leak I went out back to do my business. Out back were two huge sailboats on trailers with literally hundreds of (if not a thousand or more) 5 gallon containers, all with labels stating, "ETHER". Now, I was well aware of the drug trafficking activities prevalent in IMSA at that time, so it didn't take more than a second to connect the dots. I went back into the shop, hung around a bit more, then left and booked a flight back home. Once I got home, I called the team owner (who wasn't at the shop), told him what I saw and stated that in my view, our contract was no longer valid. He didn't disagree at all and he found a new driver and I found another ride.

Do you wish anymore "Citations"?

 

[RjThoughts]

A few of the dead guys I had in mind above are Mike Mosley, Rick Muther, and Tim Richmond. The Mos was infamously a chronic pothead, as was Muther, too, but Muther also was a notorious cokehead. Between them they had 25 Indy 500 starts. 1980 Indianapolis 500 Rookie of the Year Tim Richmond loved the white stuff and also was fond of injecting once in a while (that I firsthand knew of). I smoked pot with the Mos, free-based my one and only time with Muther, and it was a couple of party times with Timmy before he quit insisting I'd do drugs with him.

Richmond's drug use had a lot to do with his ultra quick but almost totally schizo driving behavior behind the wheel of an Indy car: he crashed so much in his first year he decided to go to NASCAR where he felt having a stock car with a full cage around him would be safer for his lifespan. He was right, and became a bigger star there. Tim died from AIDS which his family pronounced he caught from some unknown woman; many others felt he could've have just as easily caught it from a needle he was known to share from time to time.

1986 Indianapolis 500 Rookie of the Year and IMSA team owner and driver Randy Lanier is serving life without the possibility of parole for his trafficking activities. His IMSA pals the Whittington brothers, Bill and Don, are Indy car racing and IMSA veterans and convicted drug dealers and drug money launderers.

John Paul, Jr., is the youngest IMSA series champion ever and a veteran of 15 Indy 500s; he also won the 24 Hours of Daytona twice, and served two and a half years of a five year federal drug conviction.

And his dad, John Paul, Sr., who won the 24 Hours of Daytona co-driving with his son, was convicted of attempted first degree murder of a drugee who had turned informant on Paul, Sr.'s drug trafficking activity, and then later did more time for attempted prison escape, which earned him a cell at Leavenworth. He was paroled in 1999, and soon convinced a woman to sell everything she had and take off with him on a 5-year, around-the-world boating trip. The woman eventually disappeared, and after being questioned by police about it, Paul, Sr., disappeared himself, violating his parole. He hasn't been seen since.

The two NHRAers I referred to I won't name, because neither are dead or in jail or are fugitives. One of them, the legendary NFLer, I just did a little Googling on and I see he's still choosing to be mostly coy about the extent of his chronic drug use, though even while as an NFLer he was busted with the white stuff once and that in no way can be coyly concealed.

I was once in a dying relationship with a lady who was killing our relationship because of her increasing love of the white stuff, and before I fully managed to leave her she left me for this cokehead - so maybe I have some personal jackedupness about his deal . But probably not, because I remember seeing them walk into the lobby of a Las Vegas hotel arm-in-arm before an Indy car race, both their eyes white ice cold and clear and piercing, and realizing what a joy it was that she was his drugcase baggage now and not mine.

The other NHRAer I had in mind above I won't bust his bubble here, either, because 1) he's still alive, and 2) he was so totally smooth handling his love of cocaine that while everyone knew he was always usually wired, his beaming personality/charisma made hardly anyone care - which was truly admirable. Plus, he is no doubt one of the greatest Funny Car and Top Fuel drivers/owners of all time.

I was contracted to drive an IMSA GT entry for the 24 Hours of Daytona one year, and I flew to Ft. Lauderdale a couple of weeks before hand to get fitted to the car and to get to know the team, planning to stay there until race week. They had just opened the shop and the water hadn't yet been turned on, so when I had to take a leak I went out back to do my business. Out back were two huge sailboats on trailers with literally hundreds of (if not a thousand or more) 5 gallon containers, all with labels stating, "ETHER". Now, I was well aware of the drug trafficking activities prevalent in IMSA at that time, so it didn't take more than a second to connect the dots. I went back into the shop, hung around a bit more, then left and booked a flight back home. Once I got home, I called the team owner (who wasn't at the shop), told him what I saw and stated that in my view, our contract was no longer valid. He didn't disagree at all and he found a new driver and I found another ride.

Do you wish anymore "Citations"?

So your ENTIRE blast against CTE is that you're a former drug user.

NICE. Prejudice doesn't make your defense of the Monopoly correct.

 

[ifrtbttrflys]

Again: NFLers incur many more instances and much higher degrees of CTE than the general population, yet the general population suffers much higher rates of suicide and all the maladies you mentioned earlier.

 

[Conager]

Again: NFLers incur many more instances and much higher degrees of CTE than the general population, yet the general population suffers much higher rates of suicide and all the maladies you mentioned earlier.

Statistical correlation only matters to those whose point is bolstered by statistical correlation.

Correlation does not equal causation but in this case their contention that there is correlation is the very crux of their argument. If they're going to make that argument then they have to respect the statistical teality thst correlation not being there.

What you have here is causational speculation based on anecdotes.

if you can look at an individual athletes brain and determine that yes there was damage in this particular region associated with this particular behavior you might have a case for that particular injury having an effect but only on that particular athlete who was injured in that particular way.

 

[RoryN]

A very important update on this topic today. These new findings make the current NFL / football concussion protocols obsolete, and that will mean even more changes for the sport:

A new study shows that hits to the head, not concussions, cause CTE

A new study has found further evidence linking hits to the head rather than concussions to the onset of chronic traumatic encephalopathy, the neurodegenerative disease traced back to the kind of head trauma experienced by football players, other athletes and combat veterans.

“The concussion is really irrelevant for triggering CTE,” Dr. Lee Goldstein, an associate professor at Boston University School of Medicine and College of Engineering, and a corresponding author of the study, told The Post. “It’s really the hit that counts.

Takeaway quote: "A concussion doesn’t...tell you anything about CTE.”

www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-l...concussions-cause-cte/?utm_term=.9e8100816ddf

 

[BobaFetaCheese]

I love football but why anyone allows their kids to play is beyond me. What adults do is their business if they know the facts but all those adult players were kids once. Granted they didn't know 20 years ago but we do now.

 

[Hypoxia]

I love football but why anyone allows their kids to play is beyond me. What adults do is their business if they know the facts but all those adult players were kids once. Granted they didn't know 20 years ago but we do now.

I seem to recall 'touch' or 'tag' football as pushed by JFK oh so long ago. The game needn't be structured around brain injuries.