First story -- Dealing with emotional feedback

[Carnal_Flower]

I dont have time to fully respond except to say Incest Readers get attacked coming and going.

If this story were to be fully embraced and Wow this is so incredible, you can be sure there will be those like Hands and PILOT who could use it as proof of A ha they're all pedophiles. It's blatant proof that "real" incestuous abuse, horrible as it is, is behind this sick fetish.

If it's rejected like a stinking turd, as it was, here's you saying Incest Readers are holier than thou moralizers who can't handle the "darker" aspects of their own kink.

Personally I'm quite glad these type of stories are spit out by the Incest Mob like a piece of bone or skin. They do not like the eroticization/normalization of the rancid abuse people are ALWAYS accusing them of secretly wanting.

Yeah, NC/R readers don't necessarily read that category because it's "part of their experience" and I'm pretty confident that you understand that. And yet:



Now, I'm not going to pick a fight with you or tell you that your opinion doesn't matter, I respect you. I just think the narrowness of a certain readership's interpretation of the I/T category and the burning zeal with which they defend it can and does get off-putting.

(* Or at least I wasn't meaning to. Looking back, I can see how my remarks came across as more disdainful than was warranted and implied that I look down on people for preferring their I/T fiction light and romantic. That isn't so and I regret giving that impression, it was not the point of my post.)

 

[CyranoJ]

I dont have time to fully respond except to say Incest Readers get attacked coming and going.

Well, I can understand that frustration, and acknowledge that perhaps defensiveness on that score may motivate some of the behaviour that irritates me. About all I can say is that trying to please people hostile to one's kink is a losing game; there's no controlling what they will or won't say and how hypocritical it will get. But one can control whether one chooses to engage in kink-shaming or fallacious moralization oneself, and I don't see a great necessity for it particularly from I/T partisans on a site where I/T's readership is as numerically dominant as it is here.

 

[sr71plt]

I dont have time to fully respond except to say Incest Readers get attacked coming and going.

If this story were to be fully embraced and Wow this is so incredible, you can be sure there will be those like Hands and PILOT who could use it as proof of A ha they're all pedophiles.

Will you just stop that nasty shit? I haven't even posted to this thread.

 

[TamLin01]

23 people favorited the story, whereas two left comments complaining about it. So why worry so much about the one comment? What's so special about this person relative to everyone else?

 

[Handley_Page]

23 people favorited the story, whereas two left comments complaining about it. So why worry so much about the one comment? What's so special about this person relative to everyone else?

A very telling point, I feel.

 

[Nezhul]

But I thought others didn't enjoy it, wasn't that the point? Incest Readers not only rated it low, but one said it traumatized her and would give her nightmares. Obviously the OP cared about the response and was troubled by it.

but they DID enjoy it.
The rating is not brilliant, but its not low. It's leaning towards 4. Now EVERY story on lit gets a few 1 stars every time, so if you forget those unjustified marks you get a rating of about 4-fish, which is very good. Granted there are some legitimate 1-stars, but that only means there are 5-stars to compensate for them, and you always need several 5-s to deal with one 1.

For a first story to do this good is totally okay. For a controversial story - doubly so.

The READERS liked it. Those who choose to comment didn't, but that's like 5 people. Comments are not representative because mainly only people who loved it or hated it will choose to comment. And haters are always more vocal.
If people just liked the story - they rate it but don't bother to comment. Same if they simply weren't impressed.

And let me tell you - this was INCEST readership who liked it. Same as noncon or nonhuman, if you are not into incest - you don't even open the story. For many people incest is unattractive, so it was incest readership who scored this high.

So you are unjustified and a minority in your claims and attacks.

Stop trying to talk for everyone and bending the entire category to your personal tastes. That's not how it works.

 

[Carnal_Flower]

The problem, as I see it, is what is this "dark" side to Incest Erotica you're talking about?

If by that you mean that it's not "real" enough, that it glosses over the horrible reality of real life incest, that is what sets me off--particularly from anyone who writes NC.

If you don't like Incest, fine. Most people who don't immediately jump to the real life horror to attack it. That is why I say if you're going to use some historical reality to try and gauge erotica, you have to apply it to all genres alike.

I don't kink shame, or try not to. ANd I'm not sure why you're saying that.

To say that presenting a real life incest rape story as Incest Erotica is problematic, and it should go into NC, is not shaming. I always defend NC and I always defend rape fantasies, although I don't know if this was a fantasy or even sought to be. I do find it odd that the very people who lambast Incest for sugar-coating the awful truth jump to the defense of a story that offers a pretty raw version of the truth as something erotic.

And when I say Incest readers are "normal" I mean by that normal perverts with a normally twisted fetish, as twisted as anyone else's. What they are NOT are the abusers others have often claimed and still do on these Forums.

Both Hands and Pilot have, at times, made these claims outright. I don't know why Pilot is denying it, or perhaps backpedalling, but it's the truth.

Well, I can understand that frustration, and acknowledge that perhaps defensiveness on that score may motivate some of the behaviour that irritates me. About all I can say is that trying to please people hostile to one's kink is a losing game; there's no controlling what they will or won't say and how hypocritical it will get. But one can control whether one chooses to engage in kink-shaming or fallacious moralization oneself, and I don't see a great necessity for it particularly from I/T partisans on a site where I/T's readership is as numerically dominant as it is here.

 

[mistakenconfidence]

23 people favorited the story, whereas two left comments complaining about it. So why worry so much about the one comment? What's so special about this person relative to everyone else?

Fair point. I guess it wasn't as much about how many comments I got (though I did receive 4-5 direct messages as well), but the severity of the reaction. Also, the idea that now 25k people have at least opened my story is really bothering me. I keep thinking that someone I know is going to read it and is going to be able to figure out who I am -- as unlikely as that is. But again, I know I'm just too much in my own head about all this. I think it helped to unload everything that I've been hiding away for all these years, but I'm not sure if this is really the right way to go about it. Or is there even a wrong way?

Ugh, I feel embarrassed. Anyway...

Thank you all again for your responses. You truly have helped put me at ease about all this. I have to admit that I was something of a wreck after reading a few of those messages, but again, that's just me sorting through my own issues.

The support of complete strangers has been very heartening! I look forward to being a part of this community, hopefully with more lighthearted matters to discuss!

 

[sr71plt]

Both Hands and Pilot have, at times, made these claims outright. I don't know why Pilot is denying it, or perhaps backpedalling, but it's the truth.

I'm not part of this discussion and I'm tired your petty, nasty backbiting.

Beyond that, you don't and can't correctly assert my positions on anything (for instance, I have more Incest stories posted to Literotica than you do), so just stop doing it--especially when I'm not even on the thread except to respond to your out-of-the-blue jabs. Just stop it.

 

[CyranoJ]

The problem, as I see it, is what is this "dark" side to Incest Erotica you're talking about?

If by that you mean that it's not "real" enough, that it glosses over the horrible reality of real life incest, that is what sets me off--particularly from anyone who writes NC.

Okay, if you insist.

I don't mean that it's not "real" enough. Most of my ire was, however, specifically directed at that subset of I/T readers -- and I'm not pretending they're the whole -- who do in fact use the romanticization of Incest kink as a wedge in attempting to "normalize" and legitimate real-life incest*.

Now, to be perfectly clear, I am not saying or trying to imply that you or anyone else who reads or writes in I/T necessarily buys into this. But those people are here and they are here in not insignificant numbers; I've encountered them, sometimes as quite prominent authors in the category. And yes, they creep me out and piss me off in much the same way that creeps in NC/R and "pro-rape" MRAs do; perhaps moreso in that they seem sometimes to get more of a pass here. And I do think that there are instances, and the kicker is that it's hard to know when it's happening, where the defence of romanticized incest really is specifically a part of that programme.

I didn't say I don't like Incest. I read I/T stories here, and I do write Incest myself in some contexts -- there's a reason I said that I considered writing in that category on Lit -- just not here. I said that I don't care to write for the Incest community specifically on Lit, and I guess when it comes down to it that's basically the reason why. I'm weirded out by situations where some not-insignificant part of a kink community can't wrap its head around the basic rule "know the difference between fantasy and reality" (which I think of as the Iron Rule of Kink, which should not be messed with) and is frequently not called on this because of turf wars and grudges with this or that other "category." AFAICT that's something that not only happens on Lit but is a situation fairly specific to Lit, and it's one of the community's genuine flaws.

(* I do take Incest to be at its root essentially a form of NC kink, which isn't so much about age for me as it is from the thrill of "taboo" being traceable to the sexual weaponization of familial roles... but the details of all that are a discussion for another time, maybe. The basic upshot of this is that moralizing from its proponents sets me off in maybe something like criticism from NC/R sets you off. I guess for me it's basically a given that I/T and NC/R kink are far closer cousins than some "partisans" of either category are willing to admit. Perhaps that's why attempts to draw hard boundaries annoy me.)

I don't kink shame, or try not to. ANd I'm not sure why you're saying that.

To say that presenting a real life incest rape story as Incest Erotica is problematic, and it should go into NC, is not shaming.

It's kind of on the edge, for me? Basically if the rule is "it can't get squicky or it's not good enough for this category" it gets problematic. See the above.

But look, I'm not saying you're some anti-NC troll or something, because I of all people know perfectly well that you aren't. And I'm not judging you or trying to portray you as some evil pedophilic pervert because you read or write I/T. Again, totally not the point of my earlier comments and I'm genuinely sorry if it came across that way.

And when I say Incest readers are "normal" I mean by that normal perverts with a normally twisted fetish, as twisted as anyone else's. What they are NOT are the abusers others have often claimed and still do on these Forums.

I get that and for the most part, I agree with you. Just as I would say the same about NC/R readers, and with the same caveat. I don't really know much about prior claims made by Hands or Pilot and to be totally honest, I don't care that much.

 

[CyranoJ]

(Anyway, CF: I kind of feel like we're maybe derailing the OP's thread a bit at this point? I'd be happy to continue the conversation by PM if you'd be interested in that. I do find this kind of discussion genuinely helpful.)

 

[HandsInTheDark]

If this story were to be fully embraced and Wow this is so incredible, you can be sure there will be those like Hands and PILOT who could use it as proof of A ha they're all pedophiles....

I seem to recall making an even-handed and somewhat sympathetic contribution to this thread. Carnal, do you think you could chill? I admittedly have no use for incest stories, but as long as incest writers leave me alone, I leave them alone.

 

[HandsInTheDark]

It's a pretty undisputed fact that Incest Erotica readers loathe Non-Con and anything BDSM-y.

Really? Look over reddit sometime. There's pages and pages of "littles" who want their daddies to spank them. Not exactly my thing, but the power aspect of a "daddy", literal or figurative, seems to tie into authority and punishment a fair amount of the time. I'd have thought Incest was closer to BDSM than BSDM is to noncon, honestly.

Well, anywhere but here, anyway. Here, Loving Wives means... I don't think anyone is quite sure but it's not very loving; BSDM is mixed with non-consent in clear violation of the usual definitions, non-con doesn't actually include rape, bestiality is given a pass on unicorns, and incest is completely unrelated to the real world. It's all fantasy land here; everyone wants the thrill of the kink without the real world cost.

 

[CyranoJ]

I do feel like Lit is kind of a very specific hothouse environment whose take on certain kinks has little to do with how those kinks play elsewhere, no matter the category. BDSM, Incest and Noncon all overlap plenty in other settings; the border patrol mentality seems like much more of a Lit thing or sometimes a Lit forums thing.

 

[Carnal_Flower]

This is something I really agree with.

I get people writing me all the time complaining that I don't have happy endings, and that is the reason. I don't write "ride off into the sunset" like this is some regular old romance and it's all ok.

I hear this perspective first hand, from some of my "fans" and it squicks me out.

I see what you're saying completely, and there is a lot of truth to it.

Okay, if you insist.

I don't mean that it's not "real" enough. Most of my ire was, however, specifically directed at that subset of I/T readers -- and I'm not pretending they're the whole -- who do in fact use the romanticization of Incest kink as a wedge in attempting to "normalize" and legitimate real-life incest*.

.

 

[Carnal_Flower]

It's Trumpland

It's all fantasy land here; everyone wants the thrill of the kink without the real world cost.

 

[CyranoJ]

I was confident we'd reach comity! Sorry about the misunderstanding.

This is something I really agree with.

I get people writing me all the time complaining that I don't have happy endings, and that is the reason. I don't write "ride off into the sunset" like this is some regular old romance and it's all ok.

I hear this perspective first hand, from some of my "fans" and it squicks me out.

I see what you're saying completely, and there is a lot of truth to it.

 

[8letters]

Incest is fairy tale land

Are any of the categories realistic? My impression is that most of the stories posted to LitE are fantasies.

where daddies get to boink enthusiastic daughters and daughters get some sort of emotional support from their daddy's interest. Clearly that's nothing like real-world incest. As far as I can tell the readers of the category are either guys who want to fuck their own daughters, or women who have been abused and are looking for some way to mentally categorize their abuse as loving or at least bonding. Or get off on reliving abuse, which sadly is a real thing.

The most popular type incest story on LitE are brother-sister stories. Number two is mom-son stories. I don't think there's a clear number three, but nephew-aunt, son-stepmom and cousin stories are up there. So the bulk of the incest stories here involve a man having sex with a woman either close to his age or much older than him.

People who actually read and write incest - I don't - can probably fill in other kinds of readers, but the types I mentioned would not like your story. That is not your fault; I think you get a gold star for telling it like it is, however painful. But it won't go over well, as you've learned.

Incest readers want a consensual relationship. Now you can argue that that's unrealistic, that the vast majority of incest that happens involve a man, usually a father or uncle, sexually abusing a young girl. Which is what the author's story described. And I'd say, "So what." Incest readers are interested in reading about the rare consensual relationship, not the typical incest relationship. But I'd guess almost every reader of every category wants to read about the rare relationship that's interesting because it's unusual rather than what happens every day.

 

[Carnal_Flower]

You're getting delusional, old man. Not everyone is suffering from dementia.

Remember LC's Taboo Cafe? Your unsolicited attack on me? Remember how I said was "marking" your behavior for future reference?

It doesn't matter if you've been in this thread or not. The pettiness and nastiness started entirely with you, and I'm simply not forgetting it.

Uh, no. I am stating your position on this matter completely correctly.


QUOTE=sr71plt;82316764]I'm not part of this discussion and I'm tired your petty, nasty backbiting.

Beyond that, you don't and can't correctly assert my positions on anything (for instance, I have more Incest stories posted to Literotica than you do), so just stop doing it--especially when I'm not even on the thread except to respond to your out-of-the-blue jabs. Just stop it.[/QUOTE]

 

[sr71plt]

If you insist on being a petty asshat, I guess you're going to continue being a petty asshat.

 

[MindsMirror]

Incest readers want a consensual relationship. Now you can argue that that's unrealistic, that the vast majority of incest that happens involve a man, usually a father or uncle, sexually abusing a young girl. Which is what the author's story described. And I'd say, "So what." Incest readers are interested in reading about the rare consensual relationship, not the typical incest relationship. But I'd guess almost every reader of every category wants to read about the rare relationship that's interesting because it's unusual rather than what happens every day.

We agree and would go even further; they aren't that rare, they're hidden because of the stigma that exists because of the non-consensual.

We shy away from reading or writing non-consent stories for three reasons:
1. We don't like them.
2. They might hurt to read anyone whose experienced it.
3. They might encourage someone whose inflicted that upon someone else.

We'd been reader/lurkers for many years. As readers, we always read the I/T category, maybe some from the romance or SciFi. In everything we read, we looked for relationships that were on equal footing. If it didn't have that we skipped it. When we started writing, we attempted to go even deeper into that aspect of consenting siblings building some of the most trusting and respecting relationships that could be formed. Before we started reading the forums, we'd thought the I/T category was the most popular because it offered a safe space to explore positive consensual loving people exploring a taboo topic. We believe in loving one another and valuing people's love for each other, even if that love doesn't fit the traditional or even current value system.

The OP's story was well written, but who is the audience? Anyone that's experienced it is likely to avoid and it almost feeds the offenders. Our hearts go out to anyone that has suffered as she has. It must have been very difficult to write about and taken a great deal of courage to open her past to public scrutiny.

-MM

 

[plesmore]

We agree and would go even further; they aren't that rare, they're hidden because of the stigma that exists because of the non-consensual.

We shy away from reading or writing non-consent stories for three reasons:
1. We don't like them.
2. They might hurt to read anyone whose experienced it.
3. They might encourage someone whose inflicted that upon someone else.

We'd been reader/lurkers for many years. As readers, we always read the I/T category, maybe some from the romance or SciFi. In everything we read, we looked for relationships that were on equal footing. If it didn't have that we skipped it. When we started writing, we attempted to go even deeper into that aspect of consenting siblings building some of the most trusting and respecting relationships that could be formed. Before we started reading the forums, we'd thought the I/T category was the most popular because it offered a safe space to explore positive consensual loving people exploring a taboo topic. We believe in loving one another and valuing people's love for each other, even if that love doesn't fit the traditional or even current value system.

The OP's story was well written, but who is the audience? Anyone that's experienced it is likely to avoid and it almost feeds the offenders. Our hearts go out to anyone that has suffered as she has. It must have been very difficult to write about and taken a great deal of courage to open her past to public scrutiny.

-MM

If Lit is more than stores of fantasies - full of lust and perversion how should stores that bring out a painful reality be treated?

 

[MindsMirror]

If Lit is more than stores of fantasies - full of lust and perversion how should stores that bring out a painful reality be treated?

Neither of us believes painful stories don't have a place. Several have suggested splitting the categories or doing away with them. At a minimum, stories that split categories should be able to warn the reader ahead of time.
-MM

 

[ElectricBlue]

If Lit is more than stores of fantasies - full of lust and perversion how should stores that bring out a painful reality be treated?

We need a Confessional category. This girl's story aches with a terrible truth and she is clearly purging demons. She is not writing to arouse or titillate, and it's not fluffy fantasy.

All I hope, for her sake, is that writing this (very powerful piece) has helped her. What readers and writers may think is secondary, I think. She's written for herself, not them. It's as honest a bit of writing as I've ever seen. Powerful and heart breaking.

 

[plesmore]

There is no doubt that being able to tell things that have gone unresolved can be helpful. I don't know how splitting categories would help. It seems that everything here works as a unit no matter how disgusting some are perceived. For instance, I find the rape content appalling, but it exists here. (Perhaps men being raped would even it out.) I guess what I'm trying to say is better to let the writer speak and leave most of the comments to PM.