The Male Form:

[SamScribble]

I have known quite a few RL men who I might described as 'beautiful'. Some have been gay; some have not. Most of them I have not seen nude. I suspect that (for me) beauty is not just about the visual. But (for me) that's probably true of women too.

 

[sr71plt]

I wouldn't follow in requiring beauty of either female or male to be anything beyond the visual. I see no reason to be going into political correctness and moral value judging with the term. I'm fine with limiting it to physical attributes.

 

[NotWise]

I very much like ballet and here is a quote from a website I found that deals with pictures of male ballet dancers:

Wearing tights creates an effeminate impression because we usually think it "feminine" for people to display their bodies, and "masculine" when they don't. Tights definitely display bodies.

You bring up ballet and suddenly this thread is more interesting to me. My youngest daughter is/was a professional ballet dancer. Recently she's only performed as a guest artist. I've now spent about 15 years in the company of ballet dancers from student to professional levels.

I've never known a male dancer with an effeminate stage presence--not that they aren't out there. I remember a recording of Nureyev and Fontayn in "La Corsair" where he was really just prancing about. Usually you expect the male dancer to project a masculine presence.

My daughter's boyfriend (also a dancer) has an iconic butt, and I've known that since before they were a couple. The first time I saw him was in "Coppelia." In the opening scene the choreographer had him walk to front-center stage, turn his back to the audience and walk away. As near as I could tell, women in the audience (including my wife) greatly appreciated that.

But normally "male form" isn't something that I expect to be high on the list for women. While the V-shaped upper body is probably attractive to most women, real men tend to be more barrel-shaped and a lot of women like that.

I always had a hard time understanding what women want to see in a man. I eventually came to the conclusion that women want men to look and act masculine (duh), the same way that men want women to look and act feminine. Looking and acting masculine to a woman is something that's hard to fit into a form; probably bigger than they are, probably strong and protective, probably capable and responsible, probably a lot of things that have little to do with how they look.

And then there's suit porn.

 

[Kimikimidoll]

Wearing tights creates an effeminate impression because we usually think it "feminine" for people to display their bodies, and "masculine" when they don't. Tights definitely display bodies.

You bring up ballet and suddenly this thread is more interesting to me. My youngest daughter is/was a professional ballet dancer. Recently she's only performed as a guest artist. I've now spent about 15 years in the company of ballet dancers from student to professional levels.

I've never known a male dancer with an effeminate stage presence--not that they aren't out there. I remember a recording of Nureyev and Fontayn in "La Corsair" where he was really just prancing about. Usually you expect the male dancer to project a masculine presence.

My daughter's boyfriend (also a dancer) has an iconic butt, and I've known that since before they were a couple. The first time I saw him was in "Coppelia." In the opening scene the choreographer had him walk to front-center stage, turn his back to the audience and walk away. As near as I could tell, women in the audience (including my wife) greatly appreciated that.

But normally "male form" isn't something that I expect to be high on the list for women. While the V-shaped upper body is probably attractive to most women, real men tend to be more barrel-shaped and a lot of women like that.

I always had a hard time understanding what women want to see in a man. I eventually came to the conclusion that women want men to look and act masculine (duh), the same way that men want women to look and act feminine. Looking and acting masculine to a woman is something that's hard to fit into a form; probably bigger than they are, probably strong and protective, probably capable and responsible, probably a lot of things that have little to do with how they look.

And then there's suit porn.

I love suit porn. It's the power associated with it that's such a draw, like when women wear heels. Everyone either wants to be powerful or be associated with someone/thing powerful.

Of course, it has to be very specific. I don't get shivers whenever I see any guy wearing a suit, even a well fitted one. If I associate something negative with him he can be the bloody king of the earth and I'd still think he's shit.

What women want in a man? Forget that, what women want is a big enough mystery, and that's coming from me (a cat). There was this one Arthurian tale (the Green something) where the knight has to find out what every woman wants and the answer is 'her own way'. I agree slightly, I think it is more 'the choice to have it her own way'. I'd always rather follow what my partner wants, and I'd want him to consciously know and appreciate that- yet still ask me what I think about it (even though most of the times it'd be what he decided!)

Back to the topic: appearance is more than how you look, it's also how you carry yourself. I've seen baby-faced boys act 'manlier' than some suit and tie 'men'. And on the other hand, there are times a man looks beautiful while being vulnerable, and plain silly when trying to be rough. Ugh it's confusing.
Sorry guys.

 

[sr71plt]

I've seen a lot of generalities too.

 

[MoonlightandRoses]

Sr71plt, I have never seen a male ballet dancer or a male figure skater who I felt was effeminate. The definition I use for effeminate is “(of a man) soft or delicate to an unmanly degree in traits, tastes, habits etc. Characterized by unmanly softness dellcacy etc.” (The Random House College Dictionary) Also I do not perceive Johnny Weir to be effeminate. I have a problem with equating the qualities of soft and delicate with being “unmanly.” This is my perception and yours is yours. That they differ does not mean that one of us is incorrect.

Legerdemer, I had to look up who Benedict Cumberbatch is. When I saw his picture I can understand your feeling that he is both beautiful and masculine.

Sam, I don’t know what “RL men” means.

Not Wise (I doubt that), good point: “Wearing tights creates an effeminate impression because we usually think it "feminine" for people to display their bodies, and ‘masculine’ when they don't. Tights definitely display bodies.” However I would add that not all people think that way and I would want to examine why that is the case. One definition of masculine is “having the qualities or characteristics of a man. By that definition I feel a man projects a masculine presence by being a man. I feel that terms like masculine, feminine and effeminate are subjective (in the eyes of the beholder). Is it masculine to cry? Some people may say yes and some no. Further I feel that those terms can be used to promote stereotypes. “Suit porn” interested me. Could there be gown porn? Also l plan to post more about ballet.

Kimkimidoll, your comment seems to be about how you feel, which is good. I appreciate reading that and in particular your feelings about suit porn. I basically agree with your last paragraph particularly your statement “appearance is more than how you look, it’s also how you carry yourself” although it seems to me that how a person carries her/himself is also about visual appearance. Yes, I feel that life and feelings are confusing at times, however, on a personal level I try to simplify it by thinking what I feel is what I feel. I’m confused why you wrote “Sorry guys.” Also I like your picture of the woman with long hair.

Tom,

 

[MoonlightandRoses]

The following is a quote from an article written by Esther Gabriel and entitled “No More Double Standards: A Love Letter to Naked Men:” “After I’d secretly watched porn I always felt ashamed for getting turned on by seeing the performer’s penis and other body parts. Not once did I ever wonder why that is… To me as a woman feeling bad about getting horny from watching naked men was completely normal.”

There are two photographs of naked men shown with this article. I consider them not to be offensive and to me the first one is beautiful – one picture is of a man sitting without showing anything “sensitive” and another from the back. This is the link to the article: http://omooni.com/blog/love-letter-to-naked-men/.

Clair de Lune et La Vie en Rose,

 

[sr71plt]

Sr71plt, I have never seen a male ballet dancer or a male figure skater who I felt was effeminate. The definition I use for effeminate is “(of a man) soft or delicate to an unmanly degree in traits, tastes, habits etc. Characterized by unmanly softness dellcacy etc.” (The Random House College Dictionary) Also I do not perceive Johnny Weir to be effeminate. I have a problem with equating the qualities of soft and delicate with being “unmanly.” This is my perception and yours is yours. That they differ does not mean that one of us is incorrect.

Yep, I agree with your (or, rather, the dictionary's) take on what effeminate is, but, beyond that, we aren't even close. Sounds like you couldn't come up with any examples of what you thought effeminate was. Sort of a dead word for you. If you can't agree that Johnny Weir is effeminate, I think that's not a concept you have in your quiver.

 

[MoonlightandRoses]

Sr71plt, in thinking about this I have probably never used the word effeminate before. It is not how I think of men. To me this is important. As I indicated before I believe that terms like masculine, feminine and effeminate can be used to promote stereotypes. I don’t want that. As I see it if a person is a man then they are manly and not effeminate and if a person is a woman then they are feminine no matter what their traits, tastes and habits are.

Tom,

 

[MoonlightandRoses]

To All, Writers are artists and to me an important part of being an artist is to be creative. I believe that concepts of what “should be” inhibit creativity, this include concepts of what a woman should be like and what a man should be like. Not wise wrote: “Wearing tights creates an effeminate impression because we usually think it "feminine" for people to display their bodies, and "masculine" when they don't. Tights definitely display bodies.” I would like to read a story that reverses that – one about a culture where it is “masculine” for people to display their bodies and “feminine” when they don’t.

In her article “No More Double Standards: A Love Letter to Naked Men” Esther Gabriel wrote “To me as a woman feeling bad about getting horny from watching naked men was completely normal.” What about a story where men avoid looking at naked women and women go out of their way to look at naked men?

Tom,

 

[sr71plt]

Sr71plt, in thinking about this I have probably never used the word effeminate before. It is not how I think of men. To me this is important. As I indicated before I believe that terms like masculine, feminine and effeminate can be used to promote stereotypes. I don’t want that. As I see it if a person is a man then they are manly and not effeminate and if a person is a woman then they are feminine no matter what their traits, tastes and habits are.

Tom,

It's OK if it's not something you distinguish. It's there for others, though. In the case of Johnny Weir, you do him a disservice and it probably comes across as rejection and denial to him. He has done everything he can--to wearing dresses and having heavy makeup and Geisha-style hairdos when he commentates figure skating--to be effeminate. You are showing the assumption that it's a negative for everyone, when I bet it isn't a negative for Johnny Weir. It came across in his ice skating as well. He doesn't deny what he's chosen to be, and probably wouldn't appreciate you denying it for him.

As far as stereotypes, they exist in fiction (and also in real life) because they are a short cut in author and reader establishing a comfortable understanding. To not use them at all is to confuse and exhaust--and, eventually, lose the reader.

 

[sr71plt]

To All, Writers are artists and to me an important part of being an artist is to be creative. I believe that concepts of what “should be” inhibit creativity, this include concepts of what a woman should be like and what a man should be like. Not wise wrote: “Wearing tights creates an effeminate impression because we usually think it "feminine" for people to display their bodies, and "masculine" when they don't. Tights definitely display bodies.” I would like to read a story that reverses that – one about a culture where it is “masculine” for people to display their bodies and “feminine” when they don’t.

In her article “No More Double Standards: A Love Letter to Naked Men” Esther Gabriel wrote “To me as a woman feeling bad about getting horny from watching naked men was completely normal.” What about a story where men avoid looking at naked women and women go out of their way to look at naked men?

Tom,

Writing for publication (and writing for Lit. is writing for publication) is a contract with readers. I think your stringent limits on your own thinking isn't going to be shared by a lot of readers.

 

[ElectricBlue]

As I see it if a person is a man then they are manly and not effeminate and if a person is a woman then they are feminine no matter what their traits, tastes and habits are.

Seems to me that you are thinking in terms of absolutes and polarities, and thus missing out on the whole spectrum in between (ie: real world people).

Here's a little challenge (showing my age here, culturally, but forgive): go find a photo of Boy George in the early 1980s (Culture Club) - is he not a beautiful man? Go and find a pic of Annie Lennox (same era, Eurythmics) and tell me she too is not beautiful, but "handsome" too. You will find a lot of gender role reversal going on with those two (it was very much part of their public persona to push against the stereotypes). Also, David Bowie, Marc Bolan

I echo Pilot's observations (it's ok mate, just a temporary thing, normal transmission will resume...) about Johnny Weir - it's part of his point, I think, not to be macho. But he's a pretty stunning looking man.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Shameless self promotion here - this story of mine explores male and female beauty of a brother and sister, through the eyes of a third person.

I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread that I can't draw men, and I'm not good at writing men either - so I solve that problem in all of my stories by writing most the male characters as me (the only male whose sexuality I really know and fully understand).

This one is written with "me" as my twenty year old self: tall, slender, long blond hair (hey, it was the seventies), blue eyes. I could have been the Aryan ideal. A gay guy I was good friends with called me "his second favourite body" (college days, don't you know) so I met whatever criteria he had for male beauty.

https://www.literotica.com/s/sisters-pt-03

 

[MoonlightandRoses]

Sr71, I’ve had my say – I’m not going to discuss this with you anymore.

Tom,

 

[legerdemer]

Seems to me that you are thinking in terms of absolutes and polarities, and thus missing out on the whole spectrum in between (ie: real world people).

Here's a little challenge (showing my age here, culturally, but forgive): go find a photo of Boy George in the early 1980s (Culture Club) - is he not a beautiful man? Go and find a pic of Annie Lennox (same era, Eurythmics) and tell me she too is not beautiful, but "handsome" too. You will find a lot of gender role reversal going on with those two (it was very much part of their public persona to push against the stereotypes). Also, David Bowie, Marc Bolan

I echo Pilot's observations (it's ok mate, just a temporary thing, normal transmission will resume...) about Johnny Weir - it's part of his point, I think, not to be macho. But he's a pretty stunning looking man.

Johnny Weir reminds me quite a bit of Joel Grey in Cabaret. Effeminate in a different way - very "boy-ish," if that makes sense.

 

[MoonlightandRoses]

Electric Blue, I am very aware of the whole spectrum regarding gender, but perhaps I wasn’t as precise as I could have been. What I was trying to get across is that if a man acts or looks or dresses or wears lipstick like a woman is only suppose to in a particular culture or if he likes what a woman is only suppose to like in a particular culture he is still just as much a man as any other man. Also if a woman acts or looks or dresses or has short hair like a man is only suppose to in a particular culture or if she likes what a man is only suppose to like in a particular culture she is still just as much a woman as any other woman. My main point is that terms like masculine, feminine and effeminate can be used to promote stereotypes, I am opposed to that and I wrote what I did to “push against the stereotypes.” What I prefer is to say that a man who wears lipstick is a man who wears lipstick and not a man who is feminine. Now you posted a thoughtful comment and I answered it. I am not going to get bogged down in semantics in discussing this.

On what I see as a different topic - you indicated that you thought Boy George is a beautiful man, that Annie Lennox a handsome woman and Johnny Weir is a pretty stunning looking man. What I appreciate about what you wrote is that you are saying that a person can be beautiful, handsome and pretty stunning no matter what sex they are and I fully agree with that.

Tom,

 

[MoonlightandRoses]

I never saw “Games of Thrones,” but I did find a clip from the Late Show with James Corden (April 2016) where he interviewed Emila Clarke, Ilana Glazer and Abbi Jacohson and I feel that what was said during that interview is relevant to this topic. I guess Emila plays one of the characters on Game of Thrones. Corden asked Emila “how she feels about the levels of nudity on Game of Thrones. . .” Her answer was “Well, I mean I feel some things about it” and then added “so I feel like there’s a little bit of inequality between the amount of nudity that happens with women, this woman in particular, and that happens with the other guys.” When the host indicated that he felt a certain part of the male body is “. . . so disgusting” Abbi Jacobson said “you guys need to come terms with your own body image.”

The interview can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LwFulD4iUo.

Tom,

 

[NotWise]

What I was trying to get across is that if a man acts or looks or dresses or wears lipstick like a woman is only suppose to in a particular culture or if he likes what a woman is only suppose to like in a particular culture he is still just as much a man as any other man. Also if a woman acts or looks or dresses or has short hair like a man is only suppose to in a particular culture or if she likes what a man is only suppose to like in a particular culture she is still just as much a woman as any other woman.

I couldn't disagree with this much more.

 

[sr71plt]

Johnny Weir reminds me quite a bit of Effeminate in a different way - very "boy-ish," if that makes sense.

Joel Grey was elegant. Johnny Weir is in-your-face flamboyant and garish.

 

[holliday1960]

Joel Grey was elegant. Johnny Weir is in-your-face flamboyant and garish.

I love elegance in a man, and your description is so fitting. I've known a lot of elegant men, both straight and gay. I never realized it until you brought this up. I think perhaps it is a form of elegance that makes the "suit" so appealing...it isn't the suit at all; it's the elegance of the way a man wears it.

Elegant men in entertainment for me would be Richard Gere, Sean Connery, Cary Grant, Fabio Lanzoni, Antonio Banderas, Julio Iglesias, Shemar Moore, Al Pacino, Johnny Depp (both elegant and beautiful), and George Clooney.

Beautiful men? George Michael (back in the day), yes, of course, Boy George, Brad Pitt, and even, you guessed it, Tom Cruise. (Just to name a few...)

 

[MoonlightandRoses]

Holiday, I appreciate your comment. I see Sean Connery and Cary Grant as elegant and beautiful. I would include the young Johnny Depp and the young Michael York particularly as Tybalt in the 1968 “Romeo and Juliet” as men I see as beautiful. While I do not see Clark Gable as beautiful there is something about him that, to me, is more than ordinarily attractive. Then there is the ballet dancer Vaslav Nijinsky, born in 1889. I see him as both elegant and beautiful. Here is a photo of him in a suit: http://www.russianballethistory.com/NijinskyN3.jpg. He originated the title role of “Le Spectre De La Rose,” one of my favorite ballets, in 1911.

I'm glad you brought up suits. When I first worked in an office I went through a period where I wore a three piece suits every Friday. I had a brown suit that fit me well and that I wore with a peach colored shirt. What I see as a problem is that men have little other than a suit to wear when dressed up.

Tom,

PS, I edited this to add Colin Firth as a man I see as being beautiful.

 

[holliday1960]

Holiday, I appreciate your comment. I see Sean Connery and Cary Grant as elegant and beautiful. I would include the young Johnny Depp and the young Michael York particularly as Tybalt in the 1968 “Romeo and Juliet” as men I see as beautiful. While I do not see Clark Gable as beautiful there is something about him that, to me, is more than ordinarily attractive. Then there is the ballet dancer Vaslav Nijinsky, born in 1889. I see him as both elegant and beautiful. Here is a photo of him in a suit: http://www.russianballethistory.com/NijinskyN3.jpg. He originated the title role of “Le Spectre De La Rose,” one of my favorite ballets, in 1911.

I'm glad you brought up suits. When I first worked in an office I went through a period where I wore a three piece suits every Friday. I had a brown suit that fit me well and that I wore with a peach colored shirt. What I see as a problem is that men have little other than a suit to wear when dressed up.

Tom,

PS, I edited this to add Colin Firth as a man I see as being beautiful.

Ah, Nijinsky...yes both beautiful and elegant! I agree and thank you for sharing the photo! (Can you believe as much as I love every aspect of the entertainment industry, I have never been to the ballet? Or the Opera, for that matter!) Never found a man willing to act as my patient, if mostly likely bored, escort. (sigh...)
Yes, I am one of the women who find certain men in suits irresistible. Walk a mile for a camel? Nope! But I'd crawl over broken glass for a man in suit! LOL Some women like uniforms, but I never had any interest in uniforms. Like I said, it has got to be the elegance of the man. There are men who can pull off jeans with the same elegance now, so don't be glum about the lack of wardrobe choices. If you want women to follow you like the pied piper, just have some taste, some class, and a lot of elegance!

 

[Kimikimidoll]

Yes, men are limited if we're sticking to western traditions of dressing. Think of the old Arabian styles, or Far Eastern robes, or even them kilts

A lot of men would wear ethnic, not-shirt-and-trousers clothes for their wedding. Again, it's how you pull off the dress. And of course, there's a time and place to wear everything.

Edit: On that note, here is Habaek from the Bride of the Water God:
https://starduste12.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/1a2.png

Yes, it's a drawing, but ooohhhh...

 

[MoonlightandRoses]

Holliday, I’m glad you responded. When I go to the ballet I am surrounded mostly by women and girls. Sometimes the girls are dressed in tutus. Maybe you could go with women friends or take children with you. With the holidays coming up there generally would be “The Nutcracker,” which usually has many children dancing in it. I like the three Tchaikovsky ballets – “Swan Lake,” “The Sleeping Beauty” and “The Nutcracker.” There are two different endings to “Swan Lake.”

I have an interest in the history of fashion and one of my favorite periods is the Regency or Empire periods (c. 1790 to 1820), partly because my favorite author is Jane Austin. Here is a picture of Mr. Darcy (Colin Firth) in something like a suit of that time: https://regencygentleman.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/colin-firth-mr-darcy-pride-and-prejudice.jpg. As to uniforms here is a picture of Mr. Wickham https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/fe/9a/41/fe9a41b059c400ac99b929d79a1be486.jpg. I like that clothes for men were not so drab then.

Thanks for the smile and the wink.

Moonlight and Roses,