It is so much harder to write naughty stuff

[Perfideous]

By that I mean overcome the suspension of disbelief.

You know you can start a non sex story with a guy walking downtown..tra la la...then a bullet blows his brains out and all the crime/ action fans go fuck! didn't see that coming. Moving target too! fantastic shot with wind and drop to allow for, probably a 145 grain soft head.

And his mate thinks it was a 148 FMJ from federal but the fact that out of the blue some poor bastard has been blown away is simply accepted as entirely plausible but dear God let the man get up to anything of an untoward , off color nature and you get

"As if! Well that's not going to happen, is it?"

The same victim might instead of being shot be struck by the ray from a time travel machine and do the sci fi nuts go "as if." No, they lap it up and go looking through their favorite Authors for something similar only in that case he was dropping to earth from an airplane that exploded in the Bermuda Triangle blah blah blah.

No, we have our work cut out for us like no other writers.

Mind you I think ours is much more fun to read- but then I'm biased.

 

[Blind_Justice]

My stories are stories first, porn second. If people get off, cool. If not, they at least had a good read.

I can't write kink-centric to save my life. I've tried a couple of times, but it wasn't pretty. "Tear's Desire" is the closest thing I'll ever get to a pure kink-centric stroker, and it's still 4 Lit pages

Don't shit on sci-fi or fantasy writers. There may be implausible devices or magic in these stories, but the good ones have consistent, comprehensible rules too. People getting hit by random time-travel rays is as much lazy writing as "A guy goes into a bar. Five minutes later, he's eating Maggie's pussy on the bar while Debbie is on her knees, deep-throating him." Unless you provide detail and context, one scenario is as stupid as the other.No amount of suspension of disbelief can fix either.

 

[sr71plt]

First, you want to establish the suspension of belief, not overcome it, don't you?

Second, I didn't see that you established a point. You can do everything with sex in a story that you can do with crime. You can set up surprise just as easily. So, I'm not following you here.

 

[HandsInTheDark]

Yes, believable consensual sex is harder than believable murder. A murder victim is passive; he couldn't see the bullet coming, and suddenly it's over. We all sense that it could happen to anyone; and lots of us have no idea how hard it is to hit a moving target, but we know lots of people die that way each day. So it's believable.

But males generally know from direct experience just what's involved in getting a girl's panties off. We have a frame of reference here, and if in a story a guy just snaps his fingers and down they drop, it's not going to pass muster. Girls - at least girls reading about - don't act like that, unless maybe you have a seven figure income (which again, most people here can't really relate to).

Sci-fi is another ball of wax. Stupid sci-fi is about the worst thing in the world, other than stupid erotica. But if the author makes a sincere and well written effort, he'll get his suspension of disbelief because it's science FICTION.

We don't perceive stories about sex as fictional improbability - if we do it probably won't be erotic. It has to be purely believable to be hot. (Well, to me - tentacle sex and sex with angels does nothing for me.) Sci fi and Action are simply held to different standards.

Put differently - if I'm watching the Matrix, I wanna fly like Trinity and stop bullets like Neo. No it's not realistic, but it's fun and works on a mythic level. But fictional sex is only interesting if I can actually imagine me and her doing that. And if the she is acting unbelievably I'm done.

 

[TxRad]

A guy getting shot in the head in the middle of a busy street or a self assured young woman sitting in the corner at Starbucks sudden getting up and walking over to whisper in a guys ear. They both leave quickly.

And the difference is?

Anything and everything is possible with a little imagination.

 

[NotWise]

By that I mean overcome the suspension of disbelief.

I'm not sure that's a common problem.

We write for an audience that usually WANTS to believe what they're reading -- at least enough to get off on it. Some suspension of disbelief should be a given.

On the other hand,if you solicit feedback (in your story or on the feedback forum, for instance) then you can expect that comment. If someone is responding to a request for feedback then they're usually reading and responding critically, unlike the normal readers.

 

[sr71plt]

A guy getting shot in the head in the middle of a busy street or a self assured young woman sitting in the corner at Starbucks sudden getting up and walking over to whisper in a guys ear. They both leave quickly.

And the difference is?

Anything and everything is possible with a little imagination.

In addition, the arousal of erotica is in pushing the point of "the deal" to the very edge of the suspension of believability. The titillation is that it goes farther, faster, more easily than is thought believable in RL. If it sticks strictly to what is normally believable in real life, it will be a dull read.

I note "thought believable" because that depends on the environment established. If a man walked up to me in a Starbucks on a busy Washington, D.C., street and said, "Come with me, I'm going to fuck you," I'd say that was RL unbelievable, but there were times when a guy would walk up to me in Cowboy's bar in Bangkok's Patpong district and say that--and then he did.

In my GM stories I often invoke a environment where hookups are this easy. I think my readers recognize the story they are reading is set in this world I've established before and thus the point of unbelievability is effective moved farther from the usual understanding of real life.

It's all in the wrist action.

 

[Wifetheif]

Sci-fi is another ball of wax. Stupid sci-fi is about the worst thing in the world, other than stupid erotica. But if the author makes a sincere and well written effort, he'll get his suspension of disbelief because it's science FICTION

I would agree with that in spades! I DO write SF and Fantasy but my worlds follow RULES. Paramount, however, is making the people who occupy your worlds convincing and believable characters. Both SF and Fantasy are at heart FICTION the rules of good fiction apply in them perhaps more than mainstream genres. I grew up reading a lot of classic SF from the 1950's to the 1980's. The BEST stuff has great characters and believable plots.

I put all my stories in EVERY genre through my own "plausibility factor test".DO these people act like real people? Is your SF device at least logic according to the universe it is set in. Some of the best criticism I have received has come from people who ordinarily do not like SF and Fantasy, yet they enjoy my stories. As one guy pointed out, my story could just as well have occurred in Peoria. That is EXACTLY right!

I use SF and Fantasy ONLY when setting the stories in the here and now are simply not plausible. Douglas Adams had an "improbability drive" in his "Hitchhiker's Guide to The Galaxy" series to both poke fun at lazy SF authors and to get away with practically anything. The point of his series was humor he just used SF as a framing device. EVERY author should remember that. Whatever you are writing about, the frame is what is important. Without good characters, however, NO framing device has much merit at all.

 

[sr71plt]

I'm not too sure what you're saying about worlds having to follow rules. If you are creating the world your story is couched in, you are setting the parameters of what is believable or not. The believability is whether it can be believed within the construct of the world you created. The creation of that world is under your control. Whether or not it is actually constructed well, it can be constructed well.

 

[plesmore]

I'm not sure that's a common problem.

We write for an audience that usually WANTS to believe what they're reading -- at least enough to get off on it. Some suspension of disbelief should be a given.

On the other hand,if you solicit feedback (in your story or on the feedback forum, for instance) then you can expect that comment. If someone is responding to a request for feedback then they're usually reading and responding critically, unlike the normal readers.

Lit is fiction much more than any social media platform. It is easy enough to frame a story with a lack of reality, but in that lack of reality there needs to be characters that one can relate to. If I start out with a story in the distant future where prostitution has been taken over by androids the reader says, “Ok, now tell me the story.” However, if the reader cannot see any part of their experiences or desires won’t the story fail?

 

[SamScribble]

I can only recall one occasion on which a reader left a comment saying 'That would not have really happened.' But the same story attracted a number comments along the lines of: Yes, yes. More, more. Different folks; different strokes.

 

[rawsilk]

Find the hook, make it readable, a page turner if you will. That is the same for any genre of writing in my opinion.

 

[Perfideous]

First, you want to establish the suspension of belief, not overcome it, don't you?

Second, I didn't see that you established a point. You can do everything with sex in a story that you can do with crime. You can set up surprise just as easily. So, I'm not following you here.

Yes, establish or continue the suspension of disbelief.

You can do everything with sex in a story that you can with crime.

Yeah right.

 

[sr71plt]

However, if the reader cannot see any part of their experiences or desires won’t the story fail?

Only if the reader is limited in imagination and willingness to expand and explore. All of my characters are flawed. Hell, I have readers following series set separately in New York and Washington, D.C., where the "hero" is a Homicide Vice cop (a different man in each but essentially the same character) who is heavily into controlling fetish sex himself. He never lets that stop him from pushing through to solving the case, though nor ford he sell out on any of those he's sexually involved with. The sophisticated reader is one who can follow a character in the character's own flawed (but consistent) skin--not requiring that they "like" the protagonist or anyone else. Just that the characters are interesting and significant to the plot. And those are the readers I strive to write for. Others can read the stories as they wish, but they aren't who I'm writing for. And I don't particularly what the size of the audience I'm writing for is. It's enough if it's only me.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

Just make your tale interesting. Traffic often backs up for miles as drivers slow to watch someone change a flat tire. People are amused by anything.

 

[sr71plt]

Y

You can do everything with sex in a story that you can with crime.

Yeah right.

Well, I think I can. Sorry if you think you can't. Sorrier if you think you can speak for what others can and can't do.

 

[Perfideous]

The point is

You cannot get away with something happening in public in a sex story. That Suspension crashes to the ground.

Now I'm not complaining, that's just the way it is, I am pointing out we have challenges they don't and yet heroically we come up with devious ways to overcome them.

And as for "I write stories first..." well, yes we all do. Anyone can write a G Rated story but getting it in to the naughty category, now that is much harder.

 

[NotWise]

Lit is fiction much more than any social media platform. It is easy enough to frame a story with a lack of reality, but in that lack of reality there needs to be characters that one can relate to.

I think that's true, It's probably true with anything you write. But at Lit we have motivated readers and the standard for what comprises a good character is loose.

If I start out with a story in the distant future where prostitution has been taken over by androids the reader says, “Ok, now tell me the story.” However, if the reader cannot see any part of their experiences or desires won’t the story fail?

Let's suppose that your story's success is defined by the readers' response. The story will fail if ultimately the readers don't find it interesting or exciting. I think that isn't different from literature at large; the audience is different. I keep that in mind when I look at the reader's response. I keep that in mind when I think about where I want to go with my own stories.

And it's not like the audience here is homogeneous. There are one-handed readers who want to pick up your story and use it now. There are readers who want to get a warm flush, and then to take it to bed with their partner, and there are any other sorts of motivation.

 

[plesmore]

I think that's true, It's probably true with anything you write. But at Lit we have motivated readers and the standard for what comprises a good character is loose.



Let's suppose that your story's success is defined by the readers' response. The story will fail if ultimately the readers don't find it interesting or exciting. I think that isn't different from literature at large; the audience is different. I keep that in mind when I look at the reader's response. I keep that in mind when I think about where I want to go with my own stories.

And it's not like the audience here is homogeneous. There are one-handed readers who want to pick up your story and use it now. There are readers who want to get a warm flush, and then to take it to bed with their partner, and there are any other sorts of motivation.

Ultimately, the best achievement for me is that I have communicated a part of myself successfully. Whether the story is actually part of my past or a longing not yet realized. I guess that sound pretty full of myself and all, but what I mean to say is that I want to relay my understanding of my world in a way that society does not have a voice.

 

[holliday1960]

You cannot get away with something happening in public in a sex story. That Suspension crashes to the ground.

Now I'm not complaining, that's just the way it is, I am pointing out we have challenges they don't and yet heroically we come up with devious ways to overcome them.

And as for "I write stories first..." well, yes we all do. Anyone can write a G Rated story but getting it in to the naughty category, now that is much harder.

Whoa...wait...what? I need clarification on this, please. Are you saying that literally speaking, readers won't 'buy' a story that involves public sex?

 

[sr71plt]

You cannot get away with something happening in public in a sex story. That Suspension crashes to the ground.

Now I'm not complaining, that's just the way it is, I am pointing out we have challenges they don't and yet heroically we come up with devious ways to overcome them.

And as for "I write stories first..." well, yes we all do. Anyone can write a G Rated story but getting it in to the naughty category, now that is much harder.

Depends on how you set up your story and the environment of your story, and sorry to rock your world but there are folks having sex in public in RL. I think you're just trying to say something can't be done that gets done--and done well--in stories frequently. If you can't do it, then don't do it. But that doesn't mean that others can't do it.

Why is this point so important to you anyway? Also, I think you're not understanding that the appeal to many of erotica is the arousal of something more than what they typically see or experience in real life. Sorry, but even in real life, there are folks having sex while they're swinging from chandeliers. Maybe you're having a very limited sex life.

 

[Hypoxia]

My stories are usually about people living their lives, which may include more varied sex than IRL folks experience but hey, this is LIT. My players may be more bisexual and promiscuous than IRL folks but hey, this is LIT. In many pieces I try to sensuously extrapolate IRL events and attitudes to arouse readers but hey, this is LIT. I still try to confound readers with twists and convolutions because that's how I think.

Writing naughty isn't hard, not nearly so hard and writing consistently and entertainingly.

 

[Perfideous]

Whoa...wait...what? I need clarification on this, please. Are you saying that literally speaking, readers won't 'buy' a story that involves public sex?

Well actually as a matter fact yes I am.

When you can establish a scenario plausible enough (a favorite of mine is All Females Naked and there are others) that the participants are naked in public doing sex acts to each or themselves then fine, you're away but when the man in the street is doing something of a sexual nature and we are expected to believe that everyone in sight isn't either taking a picture which they send to everyone they know on face book with the caption "Yuck Gross" followed by "more to come" and/or ringing the police to report what that disgusting man is doing then I for one am unconvinced.

In any case in public means under 18s might be there so that's a no no.

But look if you are convinced it is as easy to write plausible naughty fiction as it is to write standard general fiction then carry on believing that .

Link a few stories too.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

People perform sex in public all the time.

Google IMAGES :"public sex"

 

[Bramblethorn]

By that I mean overcome the suspension of disbelief.

You know you can start a non sex story with a guy walking downtown..tra la la...then a bullet blows his brains out and all the crime/ action fans go fuck! didn't see that coming. Moving target too! fantastic shot with wind and drop to allow for, probably a 145 grain soft head.

And his mate thinks it was a 148 FMJ from federal but the fact that out of the blue some poor bastard has been blown away is simply accepted as entirely plausible but dear God let the man get up to anything of an untoward , off color nature and you get

"As if! Well that's not going to happen, is it?"

The same victim might instead of being shot be struck by the ray from a time travel machine and do the sci fi nuts go "as if." No, they lap it up and go looking through their favorite Authors for something similar only in that case he was dropping to earth from an airplane that exploded in the Bermuda Triangle blah blah blah.

No, we have our work cut out for us like no other writers.

I disagree with this. The specifics vary from genre to genre, but every genre is subject to reader expectations.

Yes, you can write crime fiction that starts with a guy being blown away in public. But there are some pretty tight unwritten rules about where it goes from there.

Most RL murder is pretty predictable: one of the obvious suspects did it, for an obvious reason, using an obvious method. If not that, then it probably goes unresolved - the police might have a strong suspicion whodunnit, but not enough for a conviction. Try that in a crime novel and you're likely to have a bunch of deeply unsatisfied readers.

By and large, if you start a crime story with a dramatic murder there's an expectation that (1) this is going to be a tricky problem, and (2) it's going to be resolved by the end of the book, usually via extreme cleverness on the sleuth's part (though occasionally by hard work). And usually (3) the reader will get to see enough clues that they could have figured it out, if only they were clever enough.

Erotica doesn't have that. You can give away the entire plot in the title, and people will still read it. You don't need a twist ending or a character who's smarter than the readers. If you have enough juicy sex, plenty of people will still enjoy it.

You certainly can put those other things in, and some readers will appreciate it. But they're not mandatory.

I think very often when readers say "not plausible", they're actually getting at something else that they can't quite articulate. It might mean "I need to be able to relate to the characters in a story, and I couldn't do that here"; it might mean "I thought I knew what the rules were for this setting, and you broke them".

Film example: there's this thing that Peter Jackson does in way too many of his films that really annoys me. Running up a collapsing staircase, running with a herd of stampeding dinosaurs, running along a collapsing mountain path, running through a collapsing goblin city, bouncing past goblins in barrels, running up a collapsing tower that's sideways... he loves those "run through peril" sequences and they go on WAY too long.

My instinctive reaction to those is "this is unrealistic, there's no way they would keep on being so lucky, the entire cast should be dead by now". But I'm not bothered by dragons, or magic invisibility rings, or giant apes that defy the square-cube law. None of that triggers my "this is unrealistic" reflex.

When I think about it, the real issue with those scenes isn't "unrealistic", it's that they're unrealistic in a particular way that reminds me it's all just a movie, and sucks the dramatic tension out of it. I start remembering that nobody who matters is actually going to fall and break their neck/get randomly dino-stomped/etc., so the "peril" becomes meaningless.

I feel a similar way about erotica along the lines of "hey, you look good, wanna fuck?" "Yeah sure, let's do it right now". For me, a lot of the excitement is in the dance beforehand, the uncertainty about whether something's going to happen. If it's too easy it leaves me unsatisfied. Certainly, not all readers feel the same way about it, but some do - and I can imagine some of them just saying "unrealistic".