The Male Form:

[MoonlightandRoses]

Charley H, I saw your topic about “Nude Beauty: male vs. female” and it inspired me to start this one, but I do not want this current topic to only be about the nude male form. I didn’t thoroughly read every comment in your topic, but I did read all of yours and some others. Below I’ve included some that I particularly liked:

By Elfin obalisque: “Beauty or beautiful is one of those coverall words that say little beyond the view of the writer. A painting can be beautiful to me but not you.”

By Hypoxa: “BEAUTY: eye of beholder. No, there is no common definition, same as UGLY and SACRED and PROFANE and all sorts of weighted abstractions. BEAUTY is what we say it is at any point in spacetime. Many people, places and things are distinctly beautiful (or ugly or sacred or profane or whatever) with nothing in common but their appeal to somebody's senses and imagination.
“Maybe that's the common definition: something seems to possess any quality IFF it triggers an audience's senses and imagination to that quality. The quality actually resides in the audience, not in the object assayed. The beauty or ugliness or whatever within you is only apparent if my eyes are open to it. My mindset of 'beauty' is superimposed on what I sense. If I've seen or heard (like XMas carols) something often enough, I may grow sick and tired of it, no matter how 'beautiful' others may consider it -- it's lost its beauty to me.”

By Elfin odalisque: “Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
“Desire, there cannot be shared meanings of the word because it is in all our psyches. My sister's beautiful new baby is regarded as a pug-nosed urchin by my OH.
“The word is amorphous as we each define it separately. Body ideals don't equal beauty.
“There is only a personal view of beauty. Hypoxia sort of nailed it.”

I feel strongly that “Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder” and that the comments by Elfin and Hypoxa state that clearly. I also agree with Hypoxa that it is not only beauty that is in the eye of the beholder, but also ugly, sacred and profane and I would include attractive, unattractive, pretty, handsome, disgusting and many others. If one person or if many people perceive that something or somebody is beautiful, ugly, etc. that doesn’t mean that that the something or somebody is beautiful, ugly, etc. because it doesn’t mean that everyone feels that same way. Also am not interested in this in regard to any competition for example between women and men. By the way I’m a man.

Tom,

 

[ElectricBlue]

Interesting thing, male beauty. I can see it and appreciate it in some men, but I sure can't write it.

I draw (badly) and someone asked me once to draw a nude male body. I struggled and it just didn't flow. Ask me to draw the female form and there are curves, right there on the paper, they just flow from my fingers like a touch.

 

[MoonlightandRoses]

Electricblue, your comment brings up an interesting point and I appreciate that you gave your personal feelings regarding male beauty. I would like to hear more from you regarding this. Thank you.

Tom,

 

[MoonlightandRoses]

Here are two more comments from Charley H’s topic that I particularly like.

“By Mrs. Millwood: I believe that a fit male is every bit as desirable and beautiful as a female. But our American culture does not tolerate exploiting the male body nearly as much as it tolerates exploiting the female body.
“Consider Abercrombie and Fitch, one of the few commercial outlets that does exploit the male body. People rallied against them because they had beautiful fit males standing shirtless in front of their stores.
“TV commercials do not display fit males nearly like they do females. I cannot imagine the uproar there would be if males were shown as scantily clad or suggestive as females.
“I enjoy a fit young male wearing a square cut speedo at the beach. Could you imagine the outrage if they were shown like that? But why do that? Women are shown wearing bikinis in commercials all the time.
“American culture (or at least the ad execs) like to show males as bumbling fat slobs - the anti sexy. And as long as males are in charge, they want to keep it this way. It's less threatening for them.

By Legerdemer: “I'm very much an equal opportunity appreciator of beauty. And beauty is affected by so many things other than the mere physical manifestation of some societal norm, whatever it might be. Character coming through trumps a vapid face and beautiful body most every time.”

Tom,

 

[Wild_Honey_66]

Hi Tom, welcome to Lit.

I see that your thread has had 57 views, but only one reply by someone besides yourself. Perhaps if you were to pose a question of your audience, it would invite any lurkers to join in the conversation. Worth a shot, eh?

Honey

 

[HandsInTheDark]

Incredibly minor nit, but it's always bothered me: "sacred" is one of those words that people use without ever looking at a dictionary. The primary definition isn't abstract or vague at all - it's the secondary definition (the only one most people use) that's vague.

Something sacred is something (sometimes someone) that's been set aside for the service of or worship of a diety. A communion cup is sacred because it's placed into service in a worship ceremony; if it gets dented and someone decides it shouldn't be used in worship, it's no longer sacred. Something is either set aside in this fashion or it isn't; it's not a vague word. If you use your car only to go to church on Sunday and wouldn't have the car otherwise, you've made your car sacred. The word derived from consecrate.

profane is to treat a sacred object with disrespect, so it's not strictly speaking the opposite of sacred. Spitting into a communion cup as an act of hatred and disrespect is a profane act, but the cup is still sacred. The phrase "the sacred and the profane" makes me wince; profane's never been a noun except by brute force like that. The opposite of sacred is ordinary.

The misuse of the word's been bugging me for years, and I'm happy to have set it straight in this, the most appropriate possible forum for the topic ever. Thanks.

 

[TamLin01]

Beauty or beautiful is one of those coverall words that say little beyond the view of the writer. A painting can be beautiful to me but not you.

Depends on how you use it. To say "A beautiful painting" or "a beautiful woman" is perhaps not that helpful, since those are common terms. But to say "A beautiful man" is suddenly very singular, because it's not the adjective people usually apply to the subject. And it may conjure up much more singular imagery.

 

[MoonlightandRoses]

Honey, you make a good point in writing that questions “. . . would invite any lurkers to join in the conversation.” So here goes: Does anyone perceive a particular example of the male form (a particular person or image) to be visually beautiful (your idea of beautiful) and if so kindly write about it?

I feel that you welcoming me to Lit, your addressing me by name, your presentation of a rose and the nature of your comment show you to be a caring and thoughtful person and therefore I would like to hear from you again. So I will ask you a question, what are your thoughts or feelings about this topic and what has been presented? Thank you.

Tom,

 

[MoonlightandRoses]

Hands in the Dark, interesting comment and I have not looked up the definition of “sacred” before I read what you wrote. I am however more concerned about the terms that deal more with appearance such as attractive, unattractive, pretty, handsome and disgusting.

Tom,

 

[MoonlightandRoses]

TamLin, your comment made me think a great deal and that is good. When I read what Elfin obalisque wrote my thought was that she/he was referring to the idea of beauty being subjective. I’m not quite sure what you mean. One of my thoughts is that in our culture the term beauty is usually reserved, in the visual sense, for objects or people who are delicate, gentle, graceful or feminine, so saying that a man is beautiful may suggest he has those qualities. I am not saying that you accept that idea of beauty and that is not how I think of male beautiful. I perceive many male ballet dancers to be visually beautiful and while they may be graceful I do not see them as being delicate, gentle or feminine. Another thought is that using the term “a beautiful man” questions our culture’s concept of beauty and masculinity. I feel that both interpretations would be interesting and helpful to discuss and I would like it if you responded to what I wrote particularly if I misunderstood you.

Tom,

 

[sr71plt]

Beautiful of course is in the eye of the beholder. I don't think "beautiful" need be limited by "delicate," "gentle," or "feminine". I think "graceful" might apply to it. But in male form (which I write a lot about), I think that "perfectly formed" (as assessed by the beholder) applies to "beautiful" and thus can apply to the male form as well as the female form.

 

[MoonlightandRoses]

Thank you sr71plt for your comment.

Tom,

 

[MoonlightandRoses]

It is probably the case that in our current culture most women and men find the female form more attractive (more beautiful) than the male form, but I would want to question why that is. I believe that humans tend to be born with a predisposition to find the human form including the naked human form visually attractive (beautiful) in an asexual way and that what humans find attractive (beautiful) even on an unconscious or emotional level is partly determined by nurture that is the way we are brought up. I feel that under different circumstances (as in a different culture) we could have a situation where most women and men find the male form more attractive (more beautiful) than the female form. It may even be the case that people are beginning to appreciate the nude male image more. I believe there is both logic and observation to support my assertions. My guess is that a person living during the Classical Greek period (approximately 500 BC to 380 BC) would have said that the male form is more beautiful than the female.

Tom,

 

[BuckyDuckman]

Like many, I perceive more curves to the female body and more angles to the male form. I often find myself narrowing my view and trying to capture an element of a person's body. Perhaps because I am a man, I often find myself trying to capture the sensation of an erection within its description. I guess that applies to other bodies parts, too.

 

[Kimikimidoll]

I think our problem word for describing men is 'beautiful'. Where different shapes and sorts of women can be considered "beautiful"-
cute, delightful, bubbly
lithe, svelte, nubile
innocent, ethereal
statuesque, elegant
enticing, sexy, ravishing

I just described to you 5 types of 'beauty' (of course there are more and different combinations) but all sets of words portray a specific image. We have different kinds of beauty.
Whereas for men, beautiful, or handsome, is usually one kind of image- lean or slightly muscular, an intelligent expression, nice angles and planes and broad stuff like chest or shoulders.

But I know for a fact that women in real life don't always go for this 'one' specific kind of guy! Take for example my friend and I- I find her men too big, bulky, round faced or chubby- all those huggable bear type of guys. They are handsome too- but not my type!
In turn she finds that everyone I like seem to be too skinny, too 'shifty' for her; she calls them 'snake-like', or 'fox-like', or 'wolf-like' (okay, I date animals). She agrees they are handsome - in another kind of way.
I wish I could capture those differences while describing my male characters.There is a rugged beauty in the bear types, or a kind of innocence in the chubby kind, some cuteness in the short boys. I'm tired of making them different hair/eye combos of the same 'beautiful' man-template in my head.

I think a lot also have to do with how men are 'supposed' to be, versus what they are. Somehow a chubby or a short guy ends up being a less of a 'desirable' man in descriptions, and needs to be compensated by being given an enormous dong or something. I find it silly, and I try not to fall into this trap.

I wonder if this problem is less when writing about gay characters?
Hope I made sense :/

 

[sr71plt]

I wonder if this problem is less when writing about gay characters?
Hope I made sense :/

I don't have any trouble calling a man's body beautiful. Maybe being bi enables looking at it without gender bias.

 

[Wild_Honey_66]

The word 'beauty' carries with it -for me- the connotation of value beyond the visual, so I am unlikely to use it in describing a man with whom I am unacquainted. I can look at a stranger and say objectively that I find him attractive or appealing, but he cannot be beautiful to me until I know him as a person, whether friend or lover.

When describing a man I find beautiful, I am describing the physical traits of someone who may or may not meet society's standard of physical beauty, and yet they are beautiful to me. For example, I may find beauty in a smaller-than-average penis, if I know the owner well enough to know that it would be applied with passion and generosity.

In addition, when appraising masculine physical attractiveness, I tend to overlook the aspects that I find less appealing in favor of those that float my boat. Perhaps a man lacks muscular definition in his arms and legs - big deal. My eye passes over that fact and settles quite happily on his lovely freckled skin and golden body hair. Based on my experience, every man possesses qualities that catch my eye, but it is the beauty of his inner person which motivates me to look for it and allows me to see it.

I don't think I've answered the question. I'll have to come back later and have another go at it.

 

[sr71plt]

The word 'beauty' carries with it -for me- the connotation of value beyond the visual,

Sorry, can't agree with this. A marble statue--solid rock from one end to the other--can be beautiful of form and often is described as that. So, fine if it carries that connotation for you, but not for me at all.

 

[MoonlightandRoses]

Kimikimidoll, I can see how the word “beautiful” can be a problem in describing a man. But, I also feel that this is because of how we are used to using the word. Again to the degree people consider there to be different types of women who are beautiful and only one type of man I feel is also due to our culture. You then go on to indicate that women find different types of men to be beautiful or handsome and I can imagine that to be correct. So, it seems to me that you feel that the way beautiful or handsome men are usually thought of is not reality. I agree that it has “. . . to do with how men are ‘supposed’ to be, versus what they are.” That is an important observation.

Tom,

 

[MoonlightandRoses]

Wild Honey, of course you answered my question since you told me what you thought or felt. Also since I feel that beauty is in the eye of the beholder whatever you see as being beautiful is beautiful to you, even though for you “The word 'beauty' carries with it . . . the connotation of value beyond the visual.” I do feel that attractive or appealing is also subjective. I like your statement that “. . . when appraising masculine physical attractiveness, I tend to overlook the aspects that I find less appealing in favor of those that float my boat.” I try to do this when looking at any human female or male. Thank you.

Tom,

 

[MoonlightandRoses]

Bucky your statement “I often find myself trying to capture the sensation of an erection within its description” is interesting.

Sr71plt, I’m glad you commented on the issue of “Maybe being bi enables looking at it without gender bias.” I can see how that would be the case and I’m also glad you wrote “I don't have any trouble calling a man's body beautiful.” Thank you for your contribution and I hope to read more of what you have to write.

To all particularly those who have contributed to this topic. I will be going on a short trip so I will not be replying until maybe Tuesday. I appreciate what people have contributed and I have found the comments thought provoking, so I do not want people to think I’m ignoring any further comments. I hope to find new posts when I get back.

Tom,

 

[MoonlightandRoses]

I very much like ballet and here is a quote from a website I found that deals with pictures of male ballet dancers:

“Male ballet dancers are manly as ****. Just because they're in tights, doesn't mean they're feminine. This blog was created because of the prejudice I've (as a female dancer) witnessed towards male dancers, mostly from straight men/women arguing that dance makes dudes lose their masculinity. I disagree. Dance requires a level of athleticism higher than most other sports, and there is nothing 'weak' or 'flimsy' about someone literally soaring through the air with all their muscles bulging . . .”

What is most interesting to me about the quote I posted above is the sentence “Just because they're in tights [the male dancers], doesn't mean they're feminine.” Now why would tights make a man feminine? Why would tights be considered more a garment for women then for men? After all tights could be seen as a form of pants and at one time pants were considered exclusively a male garment. Well my thinking goes like this. In the culture I live in (early 21st century USA) there seems to me to be a discomfort with men showing not only the lower part of their body (between just below their waist to their knees), but also showing the outline of that part of their body, while there is little or no such discomfort with women showing the outline of that same portion of their bodies. It also seems to me that the stereotype that the only people who would want to see the outline of the lower part of the male body are homosexual men and that no one else would want to see that. I don’t believe that is something that is natural to humans, but instead is an outcome of our culture. What do people think?

The above mentioned website contains a large number of photographs of male ballet dancers in tights and a few who are nude, but as far as I saw all of the nudes are taken from the back. This website can be found here: http://balletdancerbooty.tumblr.com/archive.

Moonlight and Roses,

 

[sr71plt]

To me, male ballet dancers come in two varieties--masculine and effeminate--but both are athletic. The same with male figure skaters. And I'm turned off by the effeminate dancers/figure skaters--just me; it's not a militant dislike, though. Baryshnikov was a masculine dancer and Nureyev borderline not so much. In the figure skating world, I can't even watch Johnny Weir skate. And it has nothing to do with how they fill out tights.

 

[legerdemer]

Benedict Cumberbatch, in my opinion, is one of those men who is/can be both beautiful and masculine. He has a very interesting, arresting face.

 

[sr71plt]

Benedict Cumberbatch, in my opinion, is one of those men who is/can be both beautiful and masculine. He has a very interesting, arresting face.

I'm on the edge with that one. Keep looking at him from all angles and not fully satisfied. I think the only character I've seen him portray is Sherlock Holmes and, again, I'm on the edge with him in both the masculine and beautiful calls in that character. Interesting isn't really beautiful with me. Extreme elongation is what comes to my mind with him. Perhaps I'm more classic (and macho) in my tastes. But beauty is in the eye of the beholder, of course. I certainly don't find him sexy.