Halloween Contest Off-Topic Thread 2

[TamLin01]

...well, not every story is going to get a red H. So why is it "invalid" if a reader votes in such a way as to hurt your chances of having one?

 

[RejectReality]

There are stories in every contest that end up below 4.0. Every single person here has seen a score suddenly drop on one or two votes and never recover completely.

Trying to play the sweeps is a crapshoot that could never deliver consistent enough results to amount to a hill of beans. All it takes is a single low score to remain on a low vote story to take it out of the running.

This theory demands that exactly this worst possible scenario is a tactic, because the people supposedly doing it are aiming to both get a low vote total and manipulate the sweeps by encouraging low votes that will be swept.

At the same time, they're supposedly goosing their scores with high early votes and glowing comments from the group, presenting a positive impression of the story out of the gate.

Virtually every part of this theory contradicts itself.

 

[Carnal_Flower]

We have such a great AH. We don't practice discrimination. Are you paranoid? Suffer from delusions? A martyr comex? Everyone out to get you? No problem! You can have your very own thread. The Grassy Knoll contingent has a right to free speech like anyone else.

Too bad we can't put a Skull and Crossbones on these threads saying Newbies Beware.

 

[NicoleZ]

...well, not every story is going to get a red H. So why is it "invalid" if a reader votes in such a way as to hurt your chances of having one?

There are stories in every contest that end up below 4.0. Every single person here has seen a score suddenly drop on one or two votes and never recover completely.

Trying to play the sweeps is a crapshoot that could never deliver consistent enough results to amount to a hill of beans. All it takes is a single low score to remain on a low vote story to take it out of the running.

This theory demands that exactly this worst possible scenario is a tactic, because the people supposedly doing it are aiming to both get a low vote total and manipulate the sweeps by encouraging low votes that will be swept.

At the same time, they're supposedly goosing their scores with high early votes and glowing comments from the group, presenting a positive impression of the story out of the gate.

Virtually every part of this theory contradicts itself.

Even if both TamLin and RejectReality raise valid objections, these two replies answer the question affirmatively if read in conjunction:

* A story will only be read consistently by a significant number of readers as long as it either averages 4.50+ or is written by someone who has a lot of other such stories.

* With the colossal number of stories available, the competition for readers is thus fierce and for those who desire to be seen as "great writers on Litterotics" or because they wish to use such a reputation in order to sell their other products as either eBooks or to agents/publishers, the temptation to tamper with the system is great, and evidently too great for some to desist from sabotaging potential rivals for attention.

* From the above, it is perfectly clear that you don't need to one-bomb or write outrageously negative comments to dissuade genuine readers. All it takes is the judicious use of a few innocuous and legitimate-appearing twos or threes coupled with a negative but not overly critical comment or two to achieve that purpose. Conversely, the reverse is true.

* As writers, I would imagine that most of us have a fair idea of who is a good writer and who is not as well as which stories are stand-outs and which aren't.

* When you find that stories that are crud and that their author has only changed names and places between them, consistently rank at 4.70 or so whereas genuinely original and well-written stories are at 4.10 or so with comments that make you wonder if the person(-s) leaving them really is that illiterate or has ulterior motives, well...

 

[RejectReality]

The thing is, they're not saying this group is actively sabotaging the competition. They're saying the group is exploiting known patterns to come out on top.

This is hardly a contest-unique thing. There are umpteen stories on the site that are remarkable, but have mediocre scores at best, and mediocre stories that have been on the toplists for years.

What you're talking about is standard troll voting. Some of it may be from authors. I believe most of it is from rabid fans of said authors from the things I've seen over the years. The rest is from mother's-basement dwellers with nothing better to do and people who take the voting system at face value, even though a score of 3, or average, is devastating.

The way that's counteracted is to keep posting stories and building a fanbase. In time, you gain enough regular readers to dampen the impact of these low scores in the early hours, attracting more readers, which snowballs.

Yes, it sucks to see some damn good work end up with a blah score, but it's a rite of passage everyone has to go through here.

And the thing about changing names and places is just Lit. There are large groups of people who want the same story tweaked slightly. I make a living of that in this pen name, purposely shunting anything that goes too far outside the norm to one of my other pen names. With a couple of exceptions, this pen name is for pure porn. Setup and screw. Fin. It sells, and it's fun to write, but it's exactly what you're talking about.

Even if both TamLin and RejectReality raise valid objections, these two replies answer the question affirmatively if read in conjunction:

* A story will only be read consistently by a significant number of readers as long as it either averages 4.50+ or is written by someone who has a lot of other such stories.

* With the colossal number of stories available, the competition for readers is thus fierce and for those who desire to be seen as "great writers on Litterotics" or because they wish to use such a reputation in order to sell their other products as either eBooks or to agents/publishers, the temptation to tamper with the system is great, and evidently too great for some to desist from sabotaging potential rivals for attention.

* From the above, it is perfectly clear that you don't need to one-bomb or write outrageously negative comments to dissuade genuine readers. All it takes is the judicious use of a few innocuous and legitimate-appearing twos or threes coupled with a negative but not overly critical comment or two to achieve that purpose. Conversely, the reverse is true.

* As writers, I would imagine that most of us have a fair idea of who is a good writer and who is not as well as which stories are stand-outs and which aren't.

* When you find that stories that are crud and that their author has only changed names and places between them, consistently rank at 4.70 or so whereas genuinely original and well-written stories are at 4.10 or so with comments that make you wonder if the person(-s) leaving them really is that illiterate or has ulterior motives, well...

 

[oggbashan]

...

The way that's counteracted is to keep posting stories and building a fanbase. In time, you gain enough regular readers to dampen the impact of these low scores in the early hours, attracting more readers, which snowballs.

Yes, it sucks to see some damn good work end up with a blah score, but it's a rite of passage everyone has to go through here.

I have been here for some time and have a long list of posted stories.

Yes, I have a fanbase but it is very limited. A quick look at my list of stories will show a large number with no Red H and several rated well below 4.00

But I don't think my lack of Red Hs and my stories rated below 4.00 are the result of gaming. What I write isn't popular. That is a sufficient explanation for me.

However I do believe that there is some deliberate manipulation of ratings and attacks on high rated contest stories. What I don't know is HOW MUCH it happens, WHO does it and WHAT their objective is. I don't know. Speculation gets me nowhere. Conspiracy theories are just theories.

I just write, because I have to, post and wait to see what happens to that story. I can't predict the outcome. Some stories I think are good end up poorly rated. Some stories I think are average for me do better than I expect. All I do know is that my stinkers get deservedly low ratings.

But sometimes I write stories just to irritate the trolls. Those stories do.

 

[RejectReality]

All I know is that as soon as I started continuously asking my readers not to vote more than once on my stories or downvote the competition, the number of votes swept and number of fives swept from my stories fell off a cliff.

I doubt I'm alone in having fans acting "on my behalf" without my knowledge or approval. The good thing is, it appears most of them listen when you tell them to stop it.

There are far more readers than writers on the site, and all it takes is a quick stroll through the comments section to see how passionate ( in some cases, rabid ) they can be.

That's where I draw my conclusion that fan shenanigans are a far larger share of the whole than anything authors can muster. In my experience, they were actually harming the performance of my stories, rather than helping, based upon the rapid change when I told them to cut it out.

 

[8letters]

Based upon my experience, the conspiracy theories in this thread are all bullshit.

* When you find that stories that are crud and that their author has only changed names and places between them, consistently rank at 4.70 or so whereas genuinely original and well-written stories are at 4.10 or so with comments that make you wonder if the person(-s) leaving them really is that illiterate or has ulterior motives, well...

You're not understanding what scores mean. Scores are how enjoyable the readers found your story. This isn't a writing contest were you get extra points for having an original or well-written story. My first two submissions are Heather and Michael Ch 01 and Heather and Michael Ch 02. I was a new writer and those stories are filled with writing mistakes. Yet they have scores of 4.48 and 4.66. Why? Because the premise and characters are enjoyable. If you can't handle that, then I suggest you move on to some other site.

 

[sr71plt]

You're not understanding what scores mean. Scores are how enjoyable the readers found your story. This isn't a writing contest were you get extra points for having an original or well-written story. My first two submissions are Heather and Michael Ch 01 and Heather and Michael Ch 02. I was a new writer and those stories are filled with writing mistakes. Yet they have scores of 4.48 and 4.66. Why? Because the premise and characters are enjoyable. If you can't handle that, then I suggest you move on to some other site.

I agree with this. Many of the authors posting to the forum just refuse to understand that the motives of most readers on Literotica aren't as the authors trying to win a Pulitzer Prize wish them to be--nor is the readership's sense of obligation to either vote or comment (or help develop the author's skill).

 

[Carnal_Flower]

Yes but when you have popular writers on the AH telling everyone the scores are rigged by authors in innumerable ways, it's no wonder lots of people esp new ones believe that's how things are

Paranoia is infectious

I agree with this. Many of the authors posting to the forum just refuse to understand that the motives of most readers on Literotica aren't as the authors trying to win a Pulitzer Prize wish them to be--nor is the readership's sense of obligation to either vote or comment (or help develop the author's skill).

 

[8letters]

Yes but when you have popular writers on the AH telling everyone the scores are rigged by authors in innumerable ways, it's no wonder lots of people esp new ones believe that's how things are

Paranoia is infectious

When you spend a huge amount of time on a story and it doesn't score well, I'm sure it's a lot easier to buy into conspiracy theories about how mysterious ninja trolls hammered your story than to accept that your baby just wasn't that enjoyable to read.

 

[sr71plt]

Believing that there are contest authors doing everything they can--include combining with others--to win in a contest with money payoff and that can be manipulated as easily as the Lit. themed contests can be isn't that much of a stretch as theory, conspiracy or otherwise. The Web site certainly believes it--they've instituted a sweep system on the voting that results in a significant paring off of votes. I don't subscribe to the theory that much of this involves fans. The ones who benefit are the authors. It's sort of a doh to figure out both that it happens and where it is centered.

The whole discussion on intricate winning methodology escapes me, though, so I'll let others hash this out. Just sign me up as one who enters the contests that provide perks beyond getting tangled up in all of the cheating that obviously is going on. I just note again that I think it would simmer down if the money was taken out of it. These aren't real writing-quality-based contests by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[lovecraft68]

The whole discussion on intricate winning methodology escapes me, though, so I'll let others hash this out. Just sign me up as one who enters the contests that provide perks beyond getting tangled up in all of the cheating that obviously is going on. I just note again that I think it would simmer down if the money was taken out of it. These aren't real writing-quality-based contests by any stretch of the imagination.

The two statements in bold seem to contradict each other.

As for the perks, like I said earlier, the perks are beginning to include extra bombing and extra nastiness and that-not shenanigans or discussions of said shenanigans-is making people not want to enter or sorry they did.

Regardless of whether or not the scores mean anything in terms of quality, not every person likes setting themselves up for a beating under the guise of "take the beating for 1-3 weeks then there will be a glorious sweep that makes it all better"

The extra attention is becoming akin to the extra attention an LW story bring people and I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of that crowd isn't behind some of the contest story trashing.

 

[sr71plt]

That there's cheating going on only needs to hang on the existence of the deep sweep program. The sweeps exist; ergo the site itself is claiming that cheating is going on. The sweeps are extensive; ergo the site itself is considering the cheating to be extensive. I don't really have to go any further than that to analyze what is going on to say that cheating obviously is going on. No contradiction that I see.

We don't really need to go into how you can be so sure and knowledgeable about how a voting block is (or once was) working, do we?--or we'd have to get into what an acknowledged member of the block gave in postings to the forum as a reason why you would know.

 

[lovecraft68]

When you spend a huge amount of time on a story and it doesn't score well, I'm sure it's a lot easier to buy into conspiracy theories about how mysterious ninja trolls hammered your story than to accept that your baby just wasn't that enjoyable to read.

Except for the fact I've won several contests and almost always score well-only time I don't is when I've written something I know doesn't pander to the general audience.

So the sore loser sour grapes accusation has never applied to me (number 4 on the all time author list how could I be sour about how my work has been received here?)

Whether people want to believe it or not, I point it out for the people who don't have a following like mine who can easily be screwed and have been.

The other 'tin hat' troll who speaks about formulas is TX Rad...seems he's done fairly well for himself here too.

Its not about us feeling screwed or slighter, its the lost art form of calling spades spades.

 

[lovecraft68]

That there's cheating going on only needs to hang on the existence of the deep sweep program. The sweeps exist; ergo the site itself is claiming that cheating is going on. The sweeps are extensive; ergo the site itself is considering the cheating to be extensive. I don't really have to go any further than that to analyze what is going on to say that cheating obviously is going on. No contradiction that I see.

We don't really need to go into how you can be so sure and knowledgeable about how a voting block is (or once was) working, do we?--or we'd have to get into what an acknowledged member of the block gave in postings to the forum as a reason why you would know.

The revelation of the voting block had you crowing like a rooster for being validated after all your time of saying people gang trolled you. You're welcome for that.

As for reasons? Don't act like you're being mysterious or think I won't say it. I saw it from the inside and because I did knew exactly what and who to watch when I said see ya later because I'd rather be an individual than a sycophant. I'm not a follower, no one should have to be.

Difference between us is if they're not all out on the boards attacking you as they once were (listing names would get this deleted I'm sure, but you know them) you forget about it, because you are your sole concern.

I like to look at big picture. That and I just don't forget.

 

[Arngrim]

Its not about us feeling screwed or slighter, its the lost art form of calling spades spades.

Except when you yourself are using a spade, right?

 

[sr71plt]

T
As for reasons? Don't act like you're being mysterious or think I won't say it. I saw it from the inside and because I did knew exactly what and who to watch when I said see ya later because I'd rather be an individual than a sycophant. I'm not a follower, no one should have to be.

Difference between us is if they're not all out on the boards attacking you as they once were (listing names would get this deleted I'm sure, but you know them) you forget about it, because you are your sole concern.

I was being mysterious to leave you a scrap of separation from the issue. It's OK with me if you want to acknowledge that you know there is (or was) a block and what it did, because you were in the block--at least until you played king of the mountain with TTT and lost (not really you deciding to be an individual all that much--more like you deciding they weren't going to follow you). I don't for a minute think you'd be doing anything more noble than the block does (or did) if you were still in it.

You're right that much of the gang banging on me quieted down after you were kicked out of the gang banging block (not just puffing each other up, but also attacking authors they didn't like). I see that more as them mostly walking off and not following your lead in attacking me any more, though (although a few of them still chew on my arm occasionally). Therefore, that perspective is a bit different. So, I haven't really forgotten about anything--which doesn't benefit you all that much in this discussion struggle. I can agree with you on much of the contest issues--if only in inclination--but not care all that much about joining you in the fight on this one. You reap what you sow.

 

[SecondCircle]

So why is it so hard to believe people can play their stories in a manner to get a lot of knee jerk bombs and play the sweeps like a violin? Because the sweeps are an issue all their own. They cut way the hell too deep these days and people have figured that out.

People can believe whatever they want, as easily as they want. But it's still just a "belief" based on assumption. It doesn't mean that just because you argue with someone on the forums or find someone you don't like for whatever reason, that you can then just misdirect every little nuance of what they do and brand them as cheaters.

There's several on the forums that think just because they've gotten into heated arguments with someone, it immediately means that they bomb their stories. All while telling you it's more something they themselves would do.

The Scouries thing is confusing to me. The old timers apparently knew he was a big boogeyman bomber and everyone else buys it, but he can't be the only one, so then it should be okay to brand whoever you don't like as boogeymen too? We're supposed to take your old timer advice just like previous generations did? Scouries and whatever he isn't relevant to me. Just because other people believe he games the system doesn't mean people should believe whatever you claim about someone else.

The way you claim that the mysterious cabal games the system has not only changed time and time again, but has gotten more unfathomable. Submit to a lower read category, include squicky material to intentionally get it bombed so that bombs are swept, then submit it at the last minute to shield it from most bombs while getting the final sweep to get some of the bombs, all while crossing your fingers and hoping it gets the required 25 minimum votes. As someone pointed out, this sounds like the wildest shot in the dark gamble one could undertake. My head hurts even trying to think about how to even do that.

It's not consistent with the ones you say abuse it too. Elephant in the room would be TxTallTales. You claim he slides one in last minute every time to game the system and shield from the bombs. All while having folks like me to upvote him. Okay, dude gets like, in the THOUSANDS of votes. He has been for years, before any Cabin Cabal existed. Before I was even on the site. How the fuck am I possibly helping any story he posts with that much traffic? Not to mention, dude has a huge fan base. People read the hell out of his stuff because you see his name a lot on this site. Read through any of the hundreds of comments he garners, you see just as much hate as love there. Because so many people view the story.

But some months ago, apparently I was hopping internet cafe's to boost his score. Really? With that many damn votes, how many damned alts would a person even need to make a difference? For better or worse?

Then apparently I was bombing the competition. Group voting etc.

Then I was voting 2's and 3's. Because as TxRad said, THOSE didn't get swept and I was smart enough of a troll to see that, oh yes.

Then it was something about masking IP's or something. Bunch of stuff I don't even understand, but I was doing it.

Now it's the last minute entry shit. Which really, really sucks because now unless I start writing a Halloween story in June, I'm never gonna get my story submitted on time. Or, well, at least on time enough that satisfies Lovecraft68. The only contest I have ever entered is Halloween, because as anyone knows I'm a bit obsessed with horror, and the one I was working on this year woulda came down to the wire. So I said fuck it, because it wasn't even worth putting in a contest because of the lovely attention you would direct to it.

I listed all of these to make the point that, no matter what the hell we do, it'll be some way of gaming the system. Just because you had some falling out in a dick measuring contest with TxTallTales, or because he writes "real men" stories with dumb cum slut content that you don't like.

Yet in the same breath that you cast accusations, you list these ways to cheat and game. In this very thread you address us all saying "oh, you guys know how to get better scores in your category, we all know ways to cheese it a little." This happens a lot actually. There was an entire thread of people discussing the ways "we" cheat, listing different methods to game the system, a lot of which Laurel refuted and eventually had to shut down because it wasn't wise to list ways to cheat in a thread. Some of this shit I'd never even imagined before, and yet here's all the accusers basically saying, "Well, they robbed the bank like this. I mean, no, I don't rob banks. But this is how I bet they robbed it. You know... how I would do it if I robbed banks."

Are you serious?

It honestly makes me wonder just how much of this crap is stuff you've thought of and done before. You spend way too much time analyzing every little thing about these contests and then assign one of your wierdly indepth methods of gaming to shadowy cabals.

In the end I think people just need a boogeyman. My score dropped, most definitely is the boogeyman bombing away again. Your boogeyman just happens to be the people you don't like the most.

For as much as we talk about stuff like this, the AH really does not take its own advice. We tell people "don't worry with scores till the very end, final number is what counts." Then the very next day in the contest thread it's "Big sweep last night. My score dropped by 0.02 and I lost 5 votes. Must be the trolls with their bombs." Then, "omigosh big change right at the end, I thought X would win cuz their story was doing well, but that gol-durned Z slid right in there and stole it from em. Damn that Z. They submitted to Fetish on purpose, durn trollin rascals". We tell people not to sweat scores, and we analyze every freaking tenth. We used to encourage people to beat the deadline, now we find those we don't like and say it's a gaming trick. We say 3's aren't actually bad, that it's just the red H that skews the view, but dear lord let a story drop from 4.52 to 4.39 and you're likely to hear "troll-bomb-sweep" word combos again.

Doesn't really matter now. The fun part of the contests are basically gone. It was never the money or the votes or views or comments, or any of that stuff. It was getting a deadline, with a theme and seeing what you and other authors came up with year after year. Seeing new faces enter with cool new styles. Seeing what some of the crew at the AH would write about this year. Talking about some cool highlights in the support thread.

Just seems like the same crap over and over again. I can't comment without being accused of pandering anymore, I can't post stories the way I want anymore, I can't write whatever I like anymore without fear of being accused of catering to "realmen", and every time I visit the AH I'm accused of some new trick. I guess just say it enough times until it becomes believed right? Keep saying it and it becomes a fact that is passed down.

Cool. Whatever. Barely have time to write anyway.

 

[TxRad]

I think my story list shows 6 W's but it is actually more than that as some stories have wins in the year end awards also. Funny thing is, I never started out to write a winning story. Well, there was one but it was a challenge from the self-proclaimed number one author on Lit.

I hover around number 50 on the favorites list even when I don't post nearly as much as I used to and i don't write all incest all the time. I have other interests that take up more and more of my time even now that I'm retired and have more time. Money is an interesting motivator.

As for the contests, I haven't taken them seriously for about three, maybe four years now. My favorite, Earth Day went by the way. Other than Summer, the rest don't interest me. If i happen to write one that fits, so be it.

As for the group, the formula, and all that crap, it's there. Anyone who looks into it can find it with ease. It's funny how people you never see any other time always come out whenever any of this is mentioned. I think it is funny as shit.

And just for the record, any and every story I post at any time gets bombed right out of the gate like it is a contest story. I wonder why that is? Some recover and some don't. I really don't care as this is 'fun' writing for me. I make money on my Lit stories after they have sat on Lit for a year. A side project that takes up less time than e-publishing and has a wider profit margin.

Mainstream takes up most of my writing time now and has for the last eight years. A little non-erotic story I posted here was where it all began.

I'm posting all of this for two reasons. One, I have no sour grapes on the vine, so to speak and two, This is my last post of the subject. It's your problem from now on. I'll just sit back and watch.

 

[sr71plt]

Which really, really sucks because now unless I start writing a Halloween story in June, I'm never gonna get my story submitted on time..

What, you're not supposed to write your Halloween story in June? I didn't know that. Well, golleee, that explains it.

 

[SecondCircle]

As for the group, the formula, and all that crap, it's there. Anyone who looks into it can find it with ease. It's funny how people you never see any other time always come out whenever any of this is mentioned. I think it is funny as shit.

On the topic of funny, LC's contest conspiracy theories have been nonstop for years, far longer than any cabal existed. He was doing it when I got here. Funny how in all those years, you were right there to hand him a "tin foil hat". Laurel was rigging the contests. Rigging the sweeps. Bumping up stories she wanted. Leaving others alone. Not letting people win if they called the website out. And every single time you shot them down labeled them tin foil hat conspiracies.

Now that the accusations are tossed at people you don't care for, people that were known to call out one of your friends for being an asshole, NOW the patterns make sense. Now the conspiracies ring true. Now the evidence is all there, plain as day for anyone and everyone to jump to the same conclusions you did.

Since you see them so much "protestething to mucheth" everytime this is brought up, mind telling my friends I said hello? 70% of them have been MIA for sometime. Caught up in jobs and hard circumstances. I think I've mentioned many times before that Summer is my bad season, winter opens up a tiny bit of time for writing. And Halloween is my favorite contest. But since I've turned up in SO many other contest threads this year, in which I could guess there were similar tongue in cheek voting block jokes made, I guess I could see where you're coming from.

Countering your slander isn't some kind of damning proof of guilt. I never knew trolls voted 2's and 3's in to avoid bombs. Not until you suggested it a while back. In the same thread Laurel said that didn't work, she told you she watched the contests closely to see if there was "block voting" or mass voting. She said she saw no evidence of it. You all called her a liar and moved on to the next accusation and new "trick" we supposedly employ.

The patterns make sense when you really want them to, don't they? Now you too claim your bombs come from the evil cabin of writers. If I had to wager I guess, I would think your bombs come from the colorful cast of trolls you berate and feed every single day. Upon arrival, you tell every new person not to feed the trolls, then demonstrate exactly how to do so in each troll's vanity thread.

Nah, you're probably right though. The four or five of us that still visit the cabin regularly got the whole thing rigged with our three to four hundred alts. I tellya, it's hard trying to write squicky stuff hoping that the sweeps flick just enough bombs away.

 

[SecondCircle]

What, you're not supposed to write your Halloween story in June? I didn't know that. Well, golleee, that explains it.

We all have different things going on in life. Twas sarcasm used to show that I scrape together time to write, and usually won't meet deadlines, and certainly won't usually meet the LC68 deadline.

And summer has never been friendly to me with free time. The Worker overtakes The Writer, because of the type of work I do it....

You know what? You could probably just get LC to tell you all of this. You'd think he'd know all of this since he was there and knows every little thing about us... right?

(There's more sarcasm in this post btw. Sorry for my lack of emoticons, they kinda creep me out.)

 

[lovecraft68]

My favorite, Earth Day went by the way.

Wow, you are weird, that was the one every one was clamoring to get rid of.

 

[lovecraft68]

Except when you yourself are using a spade, right?

Better a spade than an alt I suppose. You should hang out in the GB, you'd get better at the whole secret identity thing.