Writers' Vocabulary - Faulkner vs Hemingway

[MindsMirror]

We have a predilection to use complex, technical, archaic or less used words, which comes from our varied experiences and backgrounds. We like words and the way the English allows for numerous ways of expressing something. Lots of words that might be simplistic, don't carry the additional connotations that we're trying to shade with, so we often opt for the most precise words we can.

An author is often pretending to be others, especially in dialog and to be successful, an author needs to convey ideas clearly. This is an erotica site, but there seems to be a strong emphasis on the literature aspect as well. The two authors in the thread name are probably at the most well known opposites on the spectrum.

Without starting another feud; is there a prevailing opinion on the where the happy medium lives? How frequently might the average reader be sent looking for a word?

Of course seeing a consensus may not change our habits. -MM

 

[Kantarii]

Dad always told me to never use a 5$ word in a sentence that doesn't mean shit to a reader that doesn't understand its meaning.

Occasionally I like to use words that aren't often used. Two of my favorite words being facetious and inundated, but I have others to use. I am not writing bedtime stories, nor am I writing an essay about quantum physics. My middle ground is, well, middle ground. Kant

 

[sr71plt]

In the current reading atmosphere--and especially for on-line reading--you'll get more readers with the Hemingway approach than the Faulkner approach. The general reading level of popular literature has been going down since the advent of the computer and Internet. Just a conclusion from the publishing industry.

 

[MindsMirror]

Aversion to five dollar words

"Don't use a five-dollar word when a fifty-cent word will do." - Mark Twain

How much does this have to do with saving on typesetting cost versus conveying meaning? If the fifty-cent (simple) word doesn't carry the feeling/coloring/shading being sought, how often is too often? 1-10 times a lit page?

-MM

 

[DwellerDark]

Personally, I admire direct, precise language more than a large vocabulary and clever turn of phrase. I admire writers who are able to say a lot with very little.

However, I think you will get a lot of opinions from all over the spectrum, and, because we are mostly writers here, it could get ugly.

 

[SecondCircle]

I dunno. I just write it the way I'd like to read it. I don't try for over the top language. Nor do I dumb anything down. Readers that like it, read it. Those that don't, won't. That's good enough for me.

 

[Handley_Page]

"Don't use a five-dollar word when a fifty-cent word will do." - Mark Twain

How much does this have to do with saving on typesetting cost versus conveying meaning? If the fifty-cent (simple) word doesn't carry the feeling/coloring/shading being sought, how often is too often? 1-10 times a lit page?

-MM

I think that might have a problem with the 'flavour,' the 'shade' of meaning and the character to whom the remark is made.

 

[rjordan]

In the current reading atmosphere--and especially for on-line reading--you'll get more readers with the Hemingway approach than the Faulkner approach. The general reading level of popular literature has been going down since the advent of the computer and Internet. Just a conclusion from the publishing industry.

Is that because more educated readers have gravitated online while the "poorly educated" prefer thumbing paperbacks?

rj

 

[Hypoxia]

I recently read a profile of Faulkner titled AS I LAY DRINKING. Hemingway drank AFTER he wrote; Faulkner drank WHILE he wrote. Hemingway said he could tell the exact paragraph on a page where Faulkner had his first slug of whiskey. Moral: write sober, edit drunk. Or is it vice-versa?

ObTopic: Styles and tastes change over time. Many now can hardly bear florid 19th century overkill. Try reading some Bulwer-Lytton, oy. But HP Lovecraft was just as florid, and quite suited to his subject matter. RE Howard wrote vigorous but still sometimes overblown texts. Rendering Cthulhu or Conan in Hemingway's style would seem cruelly parodic, suitable for inclusion in the National Lampoon.

Pick the style to suit the story and vice-versa. Then have a drink. Or not.

 

[sr71plt]

Is that because more educated readers have gravitated online while the "poorly educated" prefer thumbing paperbacks?

rj

??? That's got the trend turned around from what I posted. It presumably is because the increased pace of the world in the electronic era has led to readers wanting it shorter and more simple--the way Reader's Digest called it half a century ago.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

Vocabulary matters when the perfect word matters or the words must rhyme..

 

[DwellerDark]

Pick the style to suit the story and vice-versa. Then have a drink. Or not.

That's a really good point. Not about the drinking. Though that might be a good idea, too.

 

[NotWise]

The vocabulary that you use (at least in dialog) should probably depend on your characters. If you have an Ivy League-educated genius as a character, then he/she should speak appropriately.

 

[GoldenCojones]

The vocabulary that you use (at least in dialog) should probably depend on your characters. If you have an Ivy League-educated genius as a character, then he/she should speak appropriately.

Hmm, I know two Ivy League-educated self-described geniuses and both are overblown pretentious dumb-fucks that couldn't speak a coherent sentence if you jerked the silver spoons out of their noses and whacked them over the head with them.

But to the OP's original point, I'll take Hemingway any day.

 

[Haulover]

I think it might be a lot more relevant to frame the question in the context of modern authors, who write for today's readership.

Readers in the days of Faulkner / Hemmingway were pretty different, IMO.

 

[SecondCircle]

??? That's got the trend turned around from what I posted. It presumably is because the increased pace of the world in the electronic era has led to readers wanting it shorter and more simple--the way Reader's Digest called it half a century ago.

I was thinking the same. That the less educated are on the more easily accessible internet.

 

[Hypoxia]

I was thinking the same. That the less educated are on the more easily accessible internet.

Yet many of those simple folk buy monstrously long novels. I don't think many novels reaching bestsellar lists are short.

 

[sr71plt]

Yet many of those simple folk buy monstrously long novels. I don't think many novels reaching bestsellar lists are short.

The question is on vocabulary, not the length of works. What's the vocabulary level of a Dan Brown book?

 

[MindsMirror]

Occam's razor is often shortened to something like "All things being equal, the simpler solution is the best." It has been true in a great many areas of science and is often applied in other areas.

In todays rapid media consuming society, it seems people desire short simple answers and have little time if the answer is not simple. The answers to many questions are not simple even in their simplest form. -MM

 

[SamScribble]

Occam's razor is often shortened to something like "All things being equal, the simpler solution is the best." It has been true in a great many areas of science and is often applied in other areas.

In todays rapid media consuming society, it seems people desire short simple answers and have little time if the answer is not simple. The answers to many questions are not simple even in their simplest form. -MM

I think Occam's point was that the simplest explanation is (generally) to be preferred. But, as most of us know, writing it simple is often a lot more difficult than writing it complicated.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

In fact most commercial writing is aimed at readers with 8 years of schooling.

The 50 most frequent words make up half of all writing and speech.

And a 3000 word vocabulary takes care of almost all speech/writing needs.

I have yet to read a LIT effort aimed at a high school reader, much less a college reader.

A better gauge of reader enthusiasm, I suggest, is the number of years they've been alcoholic.

 

[sr71plt]

The question is on vocabulary, not the length of works. What's the vocabulary level of a Dan Brown book?

Oops, I see that I did mention shorter. There's a difference in short stories and novels, I think. Novels have gotten huge, yes (the fantasy genre, in particular), but short stories have been getting shorter over the last few decades. 20,000 words once was the upper limit and there were popular magazines running short stories. Now, you won't see a short story over 5,000 words (except here, where rambling and verbosity are rewarded)--and you won't see anything even that length in a popular magazine. I'm thinking that readers think of having read a novel as an accomplishment and they'll talk about novels they've read but don't really think of a short story in terms of worthwhile time spent at all--or bring up short stories in discussions.

 

[sr71plt]

I have yet to read a LIT effort aimed at a high school reader, much less a college reader.

Bullshit. Why do you continue to spew out this crap about the stories at Literotica? You've outlived your "use by" date on this picking away at the story file. You obviously purposely don't read the better stories--and you most certainly don't write stories any better than the average here--underaverage when you take into account that this is an erotica site and you don't write erotica.

 

[Bramblethorn]

ObTopic: Styles and tastes change over time. Many now can hardly bear florid 19th century overkill. Try reading some Bulwer-Lytton, oy. But HP Lovecraft was just as florid, and quite suited to his subject matter. RE Howard wrote vigorous but still sometimes overblown texts. Rendering Cthulhu or Conan in Hemingway's style would seem cruelly parodic, suitable for inclusion in the National Lampoon.

Pick the style to suit the story and vice-versa. Then have a drink. Or not.

Poor Bulwer-Lytton. Everybody remembers him as the author of that atrocious first sentence; nobody remembers him as the originator of "the pen is mightier than the sword" or "the almighty dollar".

As you say, it depends on the story. Clarity and brevity are excellent default choices but sometimes you can hit readers harder if they have to work for the meaning. I think the most obscure word I've used in a Lit story is "heptatych"; it's what the narrator would've used, and I was using the number seven as a motif but didn't want to be too heavy-handed about it.

 

[Hypoxia]

I think the most obscure word I've used in a Lit story is "heptatych"; it's what the narrator would've used, and I was using the number seven as a motif but didn't want to be too heavy-handed about it.

I include various technical or Spanish or Hopi or Klingon terms but I add translations. No need to leave readers totally in the dark.