A New Context for Olympic Athlete?

[clistenovena]

A Fluid Paradigm for Olympic Athletes?

So, in my listening to of NPR, I heard the following:

Transgender Athletes: Legitimate Issue or Non-Issue?

Hot-button issue for many, I'm sure. And let me clarify, I am NOT anti-transgender anything. I believe we should all have the option to live the life we choose to live, and should be able to do so relatively hassle-free ('relatively' because ain't nothin' completely free from hassle).

This news story caused many questions to pop up in my mind. Is it an unfair advantage for a born-male who is now a transgender woman to compete against born-females? Would a born-female who's now a trans-male have a shot against born-males? How do hormone regimens figure into it all? And because of the doping scandal, the question begs, if athletes who are caught using performance-enhancing drugs are banned from competing in Olympic Games, should the rules be adjusted for transgender athletes?

I don't claim to have any true knowledge on this topic, none at all, so I'd appreciate any input from those in the know. And those with an opinion. And those with a mix of the two.

.

 

[renard_ruse]

Does the freedom to live as we choose include the right to tell someone who is biologically a man but claims to be a women, that he's actually a man or do I have to lie and call him/it a "woman" when his DNA says otherwise, at the risk of losing my job or being publically persecuted or sued?

Is my freedom to speak truth included in your definition of freedom?

As for the Stupidympics. I would rather watch mold grow in my shower than 10 seconds of that moronic, archaic, idiocy.

 

[Hard_Rom]

From the point of view that human females of the same mass only have 60-80% of the upper body strength of males, it is an issue.

But due to extremely low incidence of transgenderism amongst the general population, it is a non-issue. You would have to have the athlete genes and be in a place of safety and comfort to be able to train as an Olympian. A rare combination.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renée_Richards

Renée Richards (born August 19, 1934) is an American ophthalmologist and former tennis player who had some success on the professional circuit in the 1970s. In 1975 Richards underwent male-to-female sex reassignment surgery. She was then denied entry into the 1976 US Open by the United States Tennis Association, which began that year requiring genetic screening for female players. She disputed this policy, and the New York Supreme Court ruled in her favor in 1977 in a decision in favor of transsexual rights. As one of the first professional athletes to identify as such, she became a spokesperson for the transgender community.

As a huge fan of vintage motorcycles I have always admired Michelle Ann Duff.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelle_Duff

Michelle Ann Duff (born Michael Alan Duff on December 13, 1939 in Toronto) is a former Grand Prix motorcycle road racer. Her best season was in 1965 when she won the 250cc Finnish Grand Prix and finished the year in second place to Phil Read.

Duff suffered a near-fatal crash in Japan and required extensive surgery and physical therapy. Her recovery was documented in the 1967 National Film Board of Canada short documentary film Ride for Your Life, directed by Robin Spry.

Following sex reassignment surgery, she wrote about her life as a trans woman in Make Haste, Slowly: The Mike Duff story.

 

[oggbashan]

Some genetic women have naturally occuring high levels of testosterone.

Until this Olympics they had to take drugs to reduce that level to 'normal'. But it has been established that the natural higher level doesn't actually improve their performance so at this Olympics they can compete as they are.

This doesn't answer the original question but shows how complex sexually divided sports can be.

Intensive training can reduce levels of oestrogen in women, so much so that they cease having periods. Is that an advantage? Possibly not.

The real problem for athletes is that not everyone is obviously male or female. There are variations that are of doubtful sex. Most of them are unlikely to compete in sports at a high level but if they do, should they be classed as men or women?

In the 1960s, East Germany was notorious for using gender altering drugs among a whole range of medical interventions. Some of the East German women in the weightlifting and field sports looked very masculine. Were they males? Or females heavily drugged to produce male characteristics and strength? What is known is that many of them suffered real health problems in later life.

A man who THINKS he is a woman but has a male body shouldn't compete as a woman because he might have a strength advantage. He might not have, but he would be disqualified from competing in women's sports.

But athletes keep rewriting the known rules of sport. For example, until Usain Bolt it was assumed that only small but powerful men could hope to win the sprint races. Bolt is NOT small at 1 metre 95 but he has won the 100 and 200 metres at three successive Olympics.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

We've been discussing this issue since the bathroom outbreak.

Not many girls will want to be on the football team as guys, but a lot of guys would like to be on the woman's softball and soccer teams...



All they have to do is proclaim their gender preference because we are not allowed to use basic biology as science; we must use the "soft sciences" of the SJW crowd.

 

[LadyFunkenstein]

Of course it is a legit issue and will be a major problem. Most counties pay a cash bonus to gold medal winners, as high as as $750k in Singapore. Since we are talking being a transgender as opposed to a transsexual, there is a high incentive for some men to take hormones for the minimum amount of time, compete as a woman, then profit. That is going to happen.

 

[clistenovena]

Most counties pay a cash bonus to gold medal winners, as high as as $750k in Singapore.

I did not know that. Dang. That alone will be a motivator to do whatever it takes to win.

 

[LadyFunkenstein]

I did not know that. Dang. That alone will be a motivator to do whatever it takes to win.

If you don't have to actually chop your dick off, why not? Take hormones for the minimum amount of time, declare yourself a woman and profit.

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/08/19/sport/olympic-rewards-by-country/

 

[Hard_Rom]

Singapore also pays university educated women extra baby bonuses as part of a eugenics program.

Having my dick cut off is not worth 750K. How many women would suffer the ill health from a drug program designed to win medals?

About as much fear of people going transgender for money as straight pervs dressing as women to get into NC bathrooms.

 

[LadyFunkenstein]

Singapore also pays university educated women extra baby bonuses as part of a eugenics program.

Having my dick cut off is not worth 750K. How many women would suffer the ill health from a drug program designed to win medals?

About as much fear of people going transgender for money as straight pervs dressing as women to get into NC bathrooms.

You don't have to cut your dick off; it's "transgender" not "transexual". All you have to do is take hormones and declare as a woman.

My comments have nothing to do with "fear" and bathrooms are not relevant to the discussion.

By the way when are you going to explain to me why we can declare that someone "isn't a real Muslim" based upon our personal standards, but we must someone's word for it when they declare themselves to be a different gender?

 

[colddiesel]

. Is it an unfair advantage for a born-male who is now a transgender woman to compete against born-females?

.

Females are XX Males are XY. If the being is something else they are neither male nor female - they are freaks. Sad, unfair, but undeniable.

So called Trans genderism is a psychological condition not a biological fact. Of course it is unfair to allow any non XX chromosomed individual to compete against females.

Is it discriminatory to exclude these people from females events. Of course it is and so it should be. The entire concept of men's and women's event is discriminatory and so it should be.

 

[Hard_Rom]

Transgenderism is biological. The brain is a biological organism. And a very complicated one. Out of the billions of humans on this world there is bound to those who do not fit the 'norm'. All it would take is a few neurons to wire up slightly differently and voila you have a female identity in a male body. Or vice versa.

Separate men's and women's athletic events are not discriminatory. To force females to perform physical feats against male competitors would be discriminatory. Again biological fact, female humans do not have the muscle density of males. We have age classes in some sports. You can't get a fifty year old to do the things a twenty year old can do. Hardly discriminatory.

Now if a woman happens to be born with a male body that is just biological or maybe genetic 'luck'. While hardly a disability, it would be wrong to exclude them from female sports due to this. That would be discriminatory.

For all the religious types, is the soul a better judge of what kind of person they are or do we go by presence of a cock or not.

 

[sircumvent]

I just watched the women's 800M and that transgender from RSA could play linebacker in the NFL.
The real women didn't stand a chance.

 

[LadyFunkenstein]

Transgenderism is biological.

Please provide evidence for this statement. Gender dysphoria has always been considered to be psychological; you are the first I've seen claim it is biological. I'd like to see how you came up with this conclusion.

 

[1sickbastard]

If it wasn't an issue for East Germany's "women" athletes back during the Cold War, why should it be an issue now?

 

[clistenovena]

If you don't have to actually chop your dick off, why not? Take hormones for the minimum amount of time, declare yourself a woman and profit.

With that much money thrown in to winners, this type of hormone usage can only become even more prevalent than it already is. I'm still amazed that these countries pay them so much. The Wheaties box can't compare.

How many women would suffer the ill health from a drug program designed to win medals?

As many women that already have been negatively affected and as many that will in the future. With prestige, honor, and now loads of money on the line, seems these athletes are willing to suffer. A warped definition of success, imo.

Separate men's and women's athletic events are not discriminatory. To force females to perform physical feats against male competitors would be discriminatory.

A little off-topic, but why, then, has the idea of separate-gendered become such an issue? I ask genuinely.

Again biological fact, female humans do not have the muscle density of males.

Biology or not, Serena Williams could disprove this fact. I mean, have you seen her??

We have age classes in some sports. You can't get a fifty year old to do the things a twenty year old can do. Hardly discriminatory.

Why is a factor such as age still acceptable when dividing up athletes, but gender bias is such a volatile subject? The biological differences are obviously present in both. Is it just all the PC crap at play?

I just watched the women's 800M and that transgender from RSA could play linebacker in the NFL.
The real women didn't stand a chance.

Exactly this. How is that fair on any level that a man can compete in women's sports? I don't have any definitive answer. Just raising more questions for myself.

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[Aquagal]

I saw this play out at a high school state track meet last May. If a biological dude can compete in the women's division, I wonder if this is heading to unisex competitions?

I found Funk's info on what each country pays out for gold very interesting. I had no idea it could be so valuable.

 

[Wrong Element]

I just watched the women's 800M and that transgender from RSA could play linebacker in the NFL.
The real women didn't stand a chance.

She's not transgendered in the usual meaning of the term; she's intersex with an unusually high, but naturally occurring, level of testosterone.

As for whether she's got an unfair genetic advantage, that's hardly unusual for a world class athlete. You think being 6-11 doesn't give Kevin Durant a leg up in basketball?

 

[Hard_Rom]

She's not transgendered in the usual meaning of the term; she's intersex with an unusually high, but naturally occurring, level of testosterone.

Exactly. How does one classify her? Female, born female but with naturally high testosterone levels. Now that would be discriminatory to exclude her due to natural abilities. How about no basketball players over 6' 4". To be taller would give them an advantage over the vast majority of others wishing to compete.

What separates humans from the other animals on this planet is our brains. Our brains are who we are as a species. And as individuals. If the brain says your female then you are female, regardless of physical body.

 

[toubab]

The world has become a crazy place. Caster Semenya competing in the Olympics as a female is a bit of proof of that.

http://www.betus.com.pa/sports-bett...sults-south-african-runner-is-a-hermaphrodite

 

[Hard_Rom]

The world has become a crazy place. Caster Semenya competing in the Olympics as a female is a bit of proof of that.

http://www.betus.com.pa/sports-bett...sults-south-african-runner-is-a-hermaphrodite

What would you do, have her compete in her own category? She identifies as female. Her 'soul' is female. Just because she has some strange and mixed up body parts does not make her any less a girl. Would you have freakishly tall people banned from basketball? How about those with large lungs and hearts? Ban them from competition due to their beyond normal abilities? Should those of genius level be restricted in employment so as not so smart types can compete in their job market?

 

[LadyFunkenstein]

She's not transgendered in the usual meaning of the term; she's intersex with an unusually high, but naturally occurring, level of testosterone.

Eh, the media is so full of shit these days we have no idea what is up with that person. I have read articles stating this, but that doesn't make it true. Could be an ugly chick, could be intersex, could be transgender, could be transexual, could be a guy trolling us. Who the fuck knows. The news media all about shaping our minds, not telling the truth.

 

[toubab]

What would you do, have her compete in her own category? She identifies as female. Her 'soul' is female. Just because she has some strange and mixed up body parts does not make her any less a girl. Would you have freakishly tall people banned from basketball? How about those with large lungs and hearts? Ban them from competition due to their beyond normal abilities? Should those of genius level be restricted in employment so as not so smart types can compete in their job market?

I wouldn't allow Semenya to compete in the Olympics as a female, that's what. Same as I wouldn't allow males to compete as females. Otherwise there's no point to having female only events.

 

[LadyFunkenstein]

Just because she has some strange and mixed up body parts does not make her any less a girl.

Being born with no womb and no ovaries makes you less of a girl.

If what I have read is true - and again I trust very little these days - this runner is a dude whose balls never dropped. It's a thin line being a large clit and a microdick...

The least he could do is dress like a female competitor, he can't even be bothered to do that?

 

[clistenovena]

The world has become a crazy place. Caster Semenya competing in the Olympics as a female is a bit of proof of that.

Well, let's just throw another complex bowl of water into the muddy mess.

According to NPR's The Sensitive Question Of Intersex Athletes (yes, I'm an NPR freak), "Testosterone gives men a distinct advantage: a performance boost of about 10 to 13 percent." This person, Semenya, has those high levels of testosterone. Yet the women he competes against don't naturally have levels that high and are banned from competing if they use the synthetic testosterone. And according to one female competitor: "Elisa Cusma Piccione of Italy flatly opined, 'For me, she is not a woman. It is useless to compete with this, and it is not fair.'" She said it.

I still can't decide.