Is black and ebony OK?

[tomlitilia]

Are the terms black and ebony OK?

I'm writing a lesbian story involving a black and a blonde woman. I want to stay clear of any hints of racial slurs or stereotypes -- it's about two sexy women, and one just happens to be black. Since this site caters primarily for the American audience, and I'm not american, I just want to check I'm in tune with the current correct terms. My understanding is that both black and ebony are non-offensive terms. Is that correct by your standard? I know one PC version is African-American, but there is nothing in the story that limits her to be American, and even if I wrote it as such, it still sounds sterile when e.g. describing an image. For instance the sentence "Their black and blonde frames created an alluring silhouette against the blue sky" wouldn't work with substitution of black with African-American.

 

[sr71plt]

I use both terms frequently and don't get derogatory comments.

 

[StrangeTamer]

For me I would have to say don't try to be politically correct because you're not going to please everybody no matter how you write your story. Write your story however you want, of course I'm a Noob and I'm not politically correct. I don't have a problem with black and ebony.

 

[lovecraft68]

I have a couple of stories here where its a black woman with a white man and use black and ebony a lot and never heard anything negative about either.

I also like to use the term 'mocha'

 

[HankUric]

I'm writing a lesbian story involving a black and a blonde woman. I want to stay clear of any hints of racial slurs or stereotypes -- it's about two sexy women, and one just happens to be black. Since this site caters primarily for the American audience, and I'm not american, I just want to check I'm in tune with the current correct terms. My understanding is that both black and ebony are non-offensive terms. Is that correct by your standard? I know one PC version is African-American, but there is nothing in the story that limits her to be American, and even if I wrote it as such, it still sounds sterile when e.g. describing an image. For instance the sentence "Their black and blonde frames created an alluring silhouette against the blue sky" wouldn't work with substitution of black with African-American.

The usage of ebony vs. black is not insulting as long as it is not used in a derogatory fashion... so your best course of action would be to be respectful (within context) of your character's background.

Your example is a perfect way of showing a person's color in a respectful manner.

My personal issue starts when a certain element is fetishized for it's ethnicity -- which of course is kind of a counter intuitive item to bring up in a erotica forum when everything is fetishized. But it is something interesting to think about as a creative since your narrative can either work to enforce or change negative stereotypes (race, gender, handicap, etc.).

Good luck with your story!

 

[NOIRTRASH]

My white, blonde daughter calls her black husband a GODDAMNED NIGGER at times.

Theyre familiar with the term. He called me ARCHIE BUNKER once, and I haven't smiled since then. I'm just a fragile white boy like LC.

 

[AMoveableBeast]

I wouldn't dance too much around descriptions for the sake of political conformity. It's rarely good writing, and those looking to be bothered will find reason anyway.

More commonly, it is those who fetishize being black--that see the act of a white or Asian woman having sex with a dark man as being the ultimate in sluttiness or misbehavior, like he is some sort of plantation era mechanical bull to be ridden on a wild night--that sometimes borders on the offensive. Yes, those stories are often filled with complimentary language devoted to the prowess of the mythical black man--but they are the descriptions you would apply to a ferocious fighting dog or a feral fucking machine.

You're such a dirty whore. You'll EVEN sleep with a black guy. That's so hot!!!

 

[sr71plt]

My most recent e-book: *smile*


https://www.allromanceebooks.com/dbimages/2080719.jpg

 

[AMoveableBeast]

My most recent e-book: *smile*


https://www.allromanceebooks.com/dbimages/2080719.jpg

It's a huge fetish. And a complicated one. Is it racist? Derogatory? Complimentary?

Can it be all of these things at once?

 

[LIVINRFANTASIES]

My white, blonde daughter calls her black husband a GODDAMNED NIGGER at times.

Theyre familiar with the term. He called me ARCHIE BUNKER once, and I haven't smiled since then. I'm just a fragile white boy like LC.

This is real people in real life.
I have a black friend who calls scummy white guys WHITE TRASH and the same type black men NIGGERS. His wife usually says "shut up Ernie."

 

[joelafayette]

.....

 

[sr71plt]

It's a huge fetish. And a complicated one. Is it racist? Derogatory? Complimentary?

Can it be all of these things at once?

It's erotic to some, so . . .

 

[AMoveableBeast]

It's erotic to some, so . . .

I live under the assumption that everything is erotic to someone.

My partner complained the other day that I didn't do enough foreplay. I said, "Look, I'm buttering toast right now. To some people that is foreplay. I just think you need to broaden your horizons. Don't blame me because you're a prude."

 

[lovecraft68]

It's a huge fetish. And a complicated one. Is it racist? Derogatory? Complimentary?

Can it be all of these things at once?

I see it as the first two, but that's my opinion. The black bull cuck shit sells like wildfire and the great thing about the paid market is you get money, not the venomous bile, that those stories get here in LW.

Then again, the people who buy e-books actually have jobs(and opposable thumbs), so a better quality audience would be expected.

 

[AMoveableBeast]

I see it as the first two, but that's my opinion. The black bull cuck shit sells like wildfire and the great thing about the paid market is you get money, not the venomous bile, that those stories get here in LW.

Then again, the people who buy e-books actually have jobs(and opposable thumbs), so a better quality audience would be expected.

I mean, it's almost a textbook definition of racism, but because it is not entirely negative, it's a bizarre gray area.

It's very prevalent in swing lifestyles, as well, where there are scores of couples who only play with black men because it adds some particular excitement to the coupling. Yet that excitement sometimes comes on the end of a few centuries of "black danger", where these upper-class white folk need somebody tall, dark, and, well, dark, to get the lady of the house to properly clutch her pearls.

Seeking out a strong, black bull, a submissive Asian woman, a poor Hispanic woman to wear maid outfit maid...at what point do these things start to have somewhat distasteful qualities?

It's very interesting, in a sociopolitical kind of way--complex and multifaceted. But it's also damn simple:

The cock wants what the cock wants.

 

[sr71plt]

My black bulls are in a different sexual world from those you and LC are talking about, of course. And the myths that motivate GM arousal have different degrees than those in the straight sex world. Just putting that out there to establish that the discussion is bigger than the one you all are having.

 

[lovecraft68]

I mean, it's almost a textbook definition of racism, but because it is not entirely negative, it's a bizarre gray area.

It's very prevalent in swing lifestyles, as well, where there are scores of couples who only play with black men because it adds some particular excitement to the coupling. Yet that excitement sometimes comes on the end of a few centuries of "black danger", where these upper-class white folk need somebody tall, dark, and, well, dark, to get the lady of the house to properly clutch her pearls.

Seeking out a strong, black bull, a submissive Asian woman, a poor Hispanic woman to wear maid outfit maid...at what point do these things start to have somewhat distasteful qualities?

It's very interesting, in a sociopolitical kind of way--complex and multifaceted. But it's also damn simple:

The cock wants what the cock wants.

The way I see it, again this is my personal take, not looking to launch PC racism debates-is simple.

What is it about a white woman having sex with a black man? Well, its a taboo....what is a taboo?

By definition a taboo is something society would frown upon, like incest.

Now, back in the day interracial was seen as taboo, especially back in slave days, white plantation women fucking the slaves, things like that.

But in this day and age to see it as taboo smacks of racism. But its veiled under things like 'well the 'black' is getting white pussy! he's a hero, a stud, he's awesome...

Is he? The white woman is inevitably seen as trash by racists for being with one and if not trash its she is somehow being dirtier than if she were with a man of another ethnicity. And the black male? Is often portrayed as an ignorant thug who demeans the women and himself in the eyes of people like me who can see it.

My best friend of over thirty five years is black and enjoys writing and reading erotica and his take is that the 'thug black male' is too dumb to realize this shit is racist. Tell them they must like watermelon and fried chicken and its on....tell them they must get a lot of white pussy because they're black its okay...some are choosy about their stereo types.

I'll quit now before some upper middle class whites with no knowledge of 'black people' starts telling me-who grew up in an all black neighborhood and went to mostly black schools right into high school-what I don't know.

 

[sr71plt]

As I posted . . .

I don't think GMs have this color hangup at all. They are motivated by the fantasy of size more than straights are and they do have the fantasy of blacks as, generally, being built bigger, which is pretty much the only aspect of color that's motivating their reading interest in this realm.

I'll leave the amusing moralizing (considering what the two of you write) to you in the straight world.

 

[AMoveableBeast]

As I posted . . .

I don't think GMs have this color hangup at all. They are motivated by the fantasy of size more than straights are and they do have the fantasy of blacks as, generally, being built bigger, which is pretty much the only aspect of color that's motivating their reading interest in this realm.

I'll leave the amusing moralizing (considering what the two of you write) to you in the straight world.

I'm not queasy about it, nor indignant. I just find the whole thing rather fascinating.

One of the women of color I dated would often try to get me to say some rather inflammatory shit in the bedroom with her. I did it, too. She could have told me to pretend I was Jerry Lee Lewis and she was my cousin and I would have done it because she was sexy as hell, and I don't like to disappoint.

Still, I have to admit that I find the eroticizing of race, at least on an intellectual level, to be exactly as LC described--a kind of latent racism passed down by societal teachings.

But what is fetish if not the imprint of such things, the memory of a mother in stockings, the squeak of leather in the backseat of your car during that first time--some embarrassing or arousing moment that clutches and clings to us and still whispers in our ears all these years later.

Is it wrong? Is it right? Does it matter?

Edit: Also, I'm not entirely sure what I write. Other than, as JBJ says, shit. Why don't you enlighten me.

 

[Bramblethorn]

IFor instance the sentence "Their black and blonde frames created an alluring silhouette against the blue sky" wouldn't work with substitution of black with African-American.

"Black" should be fine in that context, but "blonde frame" doesn't work. Blonde is a hair colour, frame is the whole body. (Also, blonde-haired black women exist, albeit usually with chemical assistance.)

If you're describing a black character by her skin colour, do the same for the white character. It avoids giving that impression of "white is the default colour". Likewise, if you're going to get creative about ways to describe black skin, do that for the white character too - there are lots of different kinds of fair skin!

Shouldn't need saying but I've seen people forget this: "African-American" is only appropriate for American people of African heritage. Nelson Mandela was black, but not American. Australian Aboriginals are black, but not African. etcetera.

 

[TamLin01]

I've always found the term "ebony" a bit odd myself, but I guess there are only so many useful synonyms to go around.

I can't imagine getting complaints about "black," although the actual language of the story matters quite a bit.

I stopped using the term "African American" years ago, when I saw how often my girlfriend at the time had to correct who thought they were being polite. She was from Brazil, you see. "American" is technically presumptuous.

Although I guess you know where your characters are from.

 

[AMoveableBeast]

"Black" should be fine in that context, but "blonde frame" doesn't work. Blonde is a hair colour, frame is the whole body. (Also, blonde-haired black women exist, albeit usually with chemical assistance.)
.

I wrote this exact response originally, Bramble, before looking it up and finding this alternative definition: (of a person) having fair hair and a light complexion (especially when regarded as a racial characteristic).

I choose to erase the entire idea and word from my lexicon as a result.

 

[EverLux]

I work in health care, and I never see "African-American" anymore, simply black/white/asian/etc when we're collecting demographics. It’s an obsolete (and occasionally offensive) term, unless you're white and trying not to sound racist. And as Bramblethorn mentioned, “African-Americans” aren’t necessarily African (or American). We have a lot of Jamaican people in my area, and they tend not to like the classification.
Not only that, but the use of the term throws a pretty wet blanket over your boner.

Only use ebony if you’re writing about a very dark black woman (which, it sounds like you might be, what with the contrast of dark and fair). Black does not always equal ebony. LC mentioned he uses “mocha.” I also like treacle, chocolate, cinnamon, coffee—anything tasty or flattering works.

 

[Bramblethorn]

IStill, I have to admit that I find the eroticizing of race, at least on an intellectual level, to be exactly as LC described--a kind of latent racism passed down by societal teachings.

But what is fetish if not the imprint of such things, the memory of a mother in stockings, the squeak of leather in the backseat of your car during that first time--some embarrassing or arousing moment that clutches and clings to us and still whispers in our ears all these years later.

Is it wrong? Is it right? Does it matter?

That's a complicated question. It also comes up a lot for BDSMers etc. - is there something wrong with wanting to hurt somebody, if they enjoy it? I knew a politically-aware black woman whose kink was being treated like a plantation slave by her white girlfriend, and they had some soul-searching about that...

The best answers I've seen are along the lines of: fetishes and preferences aren't bad in themself (assuming you only act on them with consent) but it's good to unpack them a bit and look at what they're telling you about yourself.

For example, some people are attracted to Asian women for reasons that boil down to "I like meek and obedient women and my stereotype of Asian women is submissive". If that's the explanation, then it might be time to work on moving past that stereotype. (And you might find that the preference remains even after you've learned not to make that assumption of meekness, because the mind is a funny thing.)

For others, it might be "I'm drawn to outsiders, and where I live, non-white people are outsiders". Same preference, different causes, perhaps warranting a different response.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I wrote this exact response originally, Bramble, before looking it up and finding this alternative definition: (of a person) having fair hair and a light complexion (especially when regarded as a racial characteristic).

Huh, I didn't know that. In that case I will reclassify it as "technically correct but likely to be misunderstood".

Only use ebony if you’re writing about a very dark black woman (which, it sounds like you might be, what with the contrast of dark and fair). Black does not always equal ebony. LC mentioned he uses “mocha.” I also like treacle, chocolate, cinnamon, coffee—anything tasty or flattering works.

Careful with that. I've heard quite a few people of colour say that they are uncomfortable with food metaphors for non-white skin, especially foods that have historical associations with slave plantations.

Some discussion here:
http://writingwithcolor.tumblr.com/post/95955707903/skin-writing-with-color-has-received-several

This one has some examples of "if we described white characters that way":
https://www.buzzfeed.com/hnigatu/if...-of-color-in-l?utm_term=.hbwkJ7Y2y#.tamk8Y96l

He looked at her longingly, as he imagined her exotic, mashed potato skin laying gently against his.

“What’s your name?” he asked. “Mary,” she replied as the strap of her dress slipped off her marzipan shoulder.

She didn’t know it yet but the girl of her dreams had just walked in. Her eyes were radiant and her skin glowed with mozzarella undertones.

He traced his fingers along her supple, cauliflower skin.