Top lists and story series

[tomlitilia]

I think this has been discussed before, but why aren't just the vote score for story series averaged over all the chapters and included once in the top lists? As things currently work, the top lists are useless for finding decent stories. For instance, look at the BDSM top list
https://www.literotica.com/top/BDSM-31/alltime/?page=1
One story out of 50 is a stand-alone story, the rest are series. I'm sure they are all good stories and worthy of their score, but who is going to read 20 chapters to see if #21 is as good as the score says? Also, 15 out of the 50 are the same story series, making the top list further useless.

Thoughts?

 

[Kantarii]

I don't trust score ratings. If a story catches my interest, I will read it until I either finish or lose interest in how the writer is telling the story. I've ran across stories that were in the 4.5 ranger or higher that sucked; I've ran across stories 3.5 or slightly lower that I thought were really damn good.

Ultimately, it's up to the reader to determine what constitutes a good story to them. Kant

 

[J_R_Ashunwhy]

I don't trust score ratings. If a story catches my interest, I will read it until I either finish or lose interest in how the writer is telling the story.

Same.

 

[sr71plt]

I think this has been discussed before, but why aren't just the vote score for story series averaged over all the chapters and included once in the top lists? As things currently work, the top lists are useless for finding decent stories. For instance, look at the BDSM top list

That's certainly been proposed for years. The Web site would have to be the one to implement it, though, and I've seen no Web site interest being shown to do so.

 

[TxRad]

That's certainly been proposed for years. The Web site would have to be the one to implement it, though, and I've seen no Web site interest being shown to do so.

From one of the conversations on future updates, averaging chapter stories was one item mentioned. Also not having it on lists or contest wins (monthly, year end) unless it is finished was also mentioned.

 

[Ezrollin]

I know by reading the first few paragraphs if I want to continue reading a story. I have found enjoyable stories in several categories that surprised me.

 

[tomlitilia]

From one of the conversations on future updates, averaging chapter stories was one item mentioned. Also not having it on lists or contest wins (monthly, year end) unless it is finished was also mentioned.

Does anyone know if it's likely to happen?

 

[lovecraft68]

Does anyone know if it's likely to happen?

judging by prior track record the answer is it will not. It gets brought up when people get pissed off. This year it was over a person who had published one chapter of a series in 2015 being nominated for influential author.

That and there is a person who has now one 7-yes 7-cash prizes in the monthly awards because they have been writing the same series for so long, every installment is a 4.9+ and seeing there is no end in site for the series it will keep happening.

This gets more attention-or should-than top lists because of money being involved.

Top list wise I think that series has close to a third of the Sci fi top list.

So when people gripe we hear, yes they will change it, but it hasn't happened yet and its been being griped about for a long time.

 

[tomlitilia]

judging by prior track record the answer is it will not. It gets brought up when people get pissed off. This year it was over a person who had published one chapter of a series in 2015 being nominated for influential author.

That and there is a person who has now one 7-yes 7-cash prizes in the monthly awards because they have been writing the same series for so long, every installment is a 4.9+ and seeing there is no end in site for the series it will keep happening.

This gets more attention-or should-than top lists because of money being involved.

Top list wise I think that series has close to a third of the Sci fi top list.

So when people gripe we hear, yes they will change it, but it hasn't happened yet and its been being griped about for a long time.

It seems to me it would be a good idea to change it from the site's perspective, both for the usability of top-lists, but also from the contest perspective as you bring up. Presumably, the purpose of contests is to motivate writers to submit quality stories that readers will want to read. And I don't think most readers want to read long ongoing series. The only series I've got has >50000 reads for the first chapter, and then drops off gradually to around 15000 for the 5th.

 

[sr71plt]

It seems to me it would be a good idea to change it from the site's perspective, both for the usability of top-lists, but also from the contest perspective as you bring up. Presumably, the purpose of contests is to motivate writers to submit quality stories that readers will want to read. And I don't think most readers want to read long ongoing series. The only series I've got has >50000 reads for the first chapter, and then drops off gradually to around 15000 for the 5th.

Functionally, a lot of changes should be made from the site's perspective to make the site more user useful and author supportive, but this is the year of the Trump. Constant controversy increases site clicks.

 

[rjordan]

I think this has been discussed before, but why aren't just the vote score for story series averaged over all the chapters and included once in the top lists? As things currently work, the top lists are useless for finding decent stories. For instance, look at the BDSM top list
https://www.literotica.com/top/BDSM-31/alltime/?page=1
One story out of 50 is a stand-alone story, the rest are series. I'm sure they are all good stories and worthy of their score, but who is going to read 20 chapters to see if #21 is as good as the score says? Also, 15 out of the 50 are the same story series, making the top list further useless.

Thoughts?

It's much more difficult than that. How are you going to average chapters when MANY series are posted in different categories. An intro chapter might be posted in Romance. The next chapter is in BDSM as they experiment. Things go to hell in Chapter 3 which is posted in Loving Wives, and so on. You can't average those.

The best solution is to leave top lists as they are and totally ignore them as anything meaningful. They are there to stroke writers and to snare readers, not to inform readers.

rj

 

[TxRad]

It's much more difficult than that. How are you going to average chapters when MANY series are posted in different categories. An intro chapter might be posted in Romance. The next chapter is in BDSM as they experiment. Things go to hell in Chapter 3 which is posted in Loving Wives, and so on. You can't average those.

The best solution is to leave top lists as they are and totally ignore them as anything meaningful. They are there to stroke writers and to snare readers, not to inform readers.

rj

No problem, you average the scores and place the end product in the cat that it fits best.

 

[lovecraft68]

No problem, you average the scores and place the end product in the cat that it fits best.

And "average' will be what it is, the scores of chapters in Romance which is generally a soft voting category would be brought down to Earth by a lower scored one like BDSM and of course LW is the other end of the spectrum.

 

[rjordan]

No problem, you average the scores and place the end product in the cat that it fits best.

Exactly. Don't allow multiple categories for stories just because they are long and cut into chapters. A series of chapters should be in a single category just like Sci Fi is in one aisle in Barnes and Noble and Westerns are in another. Here a futuristic story set in the 1860s could have chapters in half a dozen categories.

The writer should decide what category their series (essentially a book) belongs in and post all chapters there, and the series earns the average of all chapters. That would take care of the problem where initial chapters can score low, but a long-in-the-tooth story at Chapter 38 with 4 remaining readers scores 4.9.

Personally, I have no involvement in this argument as a writer. I've never gone beyond 2 parts. But as a reader, I find no value in "top lists" and could not care less how the site handles them.

rj

 

[HandsInTheDark]

Exactly. Don't allow multiple categories for stories just because they are long and cut into chapters. A series of chapters should be in a single category just like Sci Fi is in one aisle in Barnes and Noble and Westerns are in another.

Ha. No. You can be one bombed by introducing a bdsm scene in a story billed as romance. Chapters belong in whatever category they most closely resemble, which as characters evolve might not match the last chapter's choice. And I at least have been known to post a chapter before I know what happens in the next chapter, so choosing a category in advance is a non-starter.

One problem is that there are two kinds of readers (and presumably writers.) Some are after a specific kink or subject; some people want strokers involving stockings and that's all they want. They don't care much about plot and character development and they'll likely drift off if there's no stockings in chapter 1 or even page 1, etc. Rigid categories are perfect for them.

But there are readers who want plot and storytelling (that just happens to be hot), but may have allergies to specific subjects. For them, accurately listing the category of each chapter is essential - they can decide if a story is good enough to follow it into new and potentially uncomfortable ground.

And then there's the problem I always grump about: categories should be "chose all that apply" not "choose one". I don't write BDSM stories or non-con stories. I write stories that may contain non-con scenes or bdsm scenes, but a lot of them evolve into romance (or social commentary). Having to pick a single category for a chapter, let alone a series, is absurd. Only the most cardboard of plots or characters is "about" bdsm or gay or whatever.

Toplists don't work. They don't work because they are category based, and categories don't work. And they attract one-bombers like anything. Unfortunately I don't know of anything better - if everything was lumped into one list, I imagine the top of the list would be flooded with incest strokers, and completely useless to a third of the readers.

I can imagine schemes where a reader specified a list of likes and dislikes and how important each was to them, and the site generated a toplist *specific to them*. It's probably feasible to implement (and could even account for series that wander between categories) but I imagine it would be beyond the intellectual capacity of some readers to use it. The current scheme, however idiotic, is at least simple.

 

[TxRad]

Anything over a certain number of words is a novel. Chapters are not stories, they are parts of a story. So how can a chapter be on a list of stories or win a monthly award for stories or anything else for that matter. Chapters were banned from the special contests just for that reason. It is not a story, period.

Category for the chapter doesn't matter. What the overall cat for the story matters. Use the Novel and Novella category for what it was meant for, long stories. When you buy a book, you don't expect information on each chapter. You usually get a name and chapter number. You also don't buy a book one chapter at a time.

This shit ain't complicated unless you want it to be.

 

[rjordan]

Ha. No. You can be one bombed by introducing a bdsm scene in a story billed as romance.

By all means, let's make sure we aren't 1-bombed. That would be tragic.

rj

 

[rjordan]

Anything over a certain number of words is a novel. Chapters are not stories, they are parts of a story. So how can a chapter be on a list of stories or win a monthly award for stories or anything else for that matter. Chapters were banned from the special contests just for that reason. It is not a story, period.

Category for the chapter doesn't matter. What the overall cat for the story matters. Use the Novel and Novella category for what it was meant for, long stories. When you buy a book, you don't expect information on each chapter. You usually get a name and chapter number. You also don't buy a book one chapter at a time.

This shit ain't complicated unless you want it to be.

The Novel/Novella category is one of those "not like the others" things. I never look at stories there because reading them is a sizeable commitment putting them in competition with mainstream books I read. There are few clues, not even the most basic genre/category, so the reader has to wade through a lot to determine whether to commit. Mainstream publishing uses cover art, reviews, blurbs, etc. to help the reader.

It isn't that complicated, and there are centuries of experience in the publishing industry to point the way.

rj

 

[sr71plt]

There are few clues, not even the most basic genre/category, so the reader has to wade through a lot to determine whether to commit.

There are tags, but they are buried at the end here. Also, the novel category is really just for those writing straight genres.

 

[JKendallDane]

The Novel/Novella category is one of those "not like the others" things. There are few clues, not even the most basic genre/category, so the reader has to wade through a lot to determine whether to commit.

Because of the wide variety of genres, and the assorted and sundry "squick factors" involved, turning the "Novel/Novella" category into a dumping ground for anything that isn't a one-off story isn't an equitable solution either. You would end up with a bigger mess than already exists. Suddenly internal category wars would be bleeding into every other category rankings.

The simplest and most fair solution would be to have two top list rankings within each category...one for single shot stories and one for multiple chapter/series stories. That way no one gets slighted for their efforts, and simultaneously the top lists become more functional to the readers that choose to search for stories using them.

Secondly, it seems to be generally agreed the monthly prize money is not a driving factor for why we authors write and post here at Lit. Nobody's ordering a new Mercedes or planning a world cruise by winning a top slot in the monthlies or even the annual awards. The money is a token from the site and the real rewards are a hopefully decent position on the top lists and the accompanying ego stroke of the little W in your author listings.

So, split the monthly (and possibly annual) award prize money between the top three single shot stories and the top three offerings in the multiple chapter contributions. That way each style of story and its author has a shot at some recognition and no one is being relegated to the back of the bus.

There is already enough "us and them" going on with the election. Let's not do it here too.

.

 

[sr71plt]

I agree with TxRad. A chapter is not a story. Thus it shouldn't be eligible for any story honors until and unless it becomes a story (and its rating shown should be an aggregate one). Bottom line on that, and giving a chapter equal billing (like giving a short story and a novel equal billing as is done here) is not a constructive response to writing development.

Admittedly I don't look at the top lists because I don't ever see being listed there, but, as a reader, I wouldn't bother to look at the top story lists for reading ideas anyway. Seeing the list dominated by chapter 24 of this or that isn't going to prompt me to start to read at chapter 24 of anything or to go back and start reading in from chapter 1.

It would be fine, I think, to separate out top lists of chaptered series from top lists of standalone stories and thus let the reader decide what sort of list they like to access and let authors to see how they compare in a level playing field. But, as with the contests, I'd get rid of the money awards because the system just does not provide a level playing field in all sorts of dimensions. Access to award money simply isn't equal or fair here and it just encourages cheating and bad behavior.