2nd Language Speaker - Positive Examples?

[CountessClara]

Hi you all,

I've just made a (very) rough outline for a story I'd love to write and submit, but I am very self-conscious regarding my English. The vocabulary for erotic contexts is already specific enough, but since it turns out I am also inclined to write something fantasy/scify-like, I am now getting worried. I realise I will always make mistakes, but I would like to create the feeling that I did what could have been expected of me to prevent them.

So, does anyone face the same problem and have you already come up with strategies to improve your English writing?
My problem is also that the stories on here vary a lot in their style and use of vocabulary, so I find it hard to learn from example. Has anyone got one or two examples of stories that are particularly well written (vocabulary, grammar, style - from a native language speaker's perspective). Lesbian themes would be my preference, but as long as it has vaginas in it, it will serve the purpose.

I will appreciate any advice!

 

[Handley_Page]

Hi you all,

I've just made a (very) rough outline for a story I'd love to write and submit, but I am very self-conscious regarding my English. The vocabulary for erotic contexts is already specific enough, but since it turns out I am also inclined to write something fantasy/scify-like, I am now getting worried. I realise I will always make mistakes, but I would like to create the feeling that I did what could have been expected of me to prevent them.

So, does anyone face the same problem and have you already come up with strategies to improve your English writing?
My problem is also that the stories on here vary a lot in their style and use of vocabulary, so I find it hard to learn from example. Has anyone got one or two examples of stories that are particularly well written (vocabulary, grammar, style - from a native language speaker's perspective). Lesbian themes would be my preference, but as long as it has vaginas in it, it will serve the purpose.

I will appreciate any advice!

You are to be admired for your foray into this field.
There are lot of folk on this board who would gladly offer help in whatever type of English you have in mind.
However, please remember that there are a great many species of English.

 

[Bramblethorn]

You might try the stories on the toplists; I haven't looked in all the categories, but at least in Lesbian those usually have pretty good English.

From your comment here, it looks as if your English is already pretty good. There are just a few very subtle things that give you away as a non-native speaker (e.g. "I will appreciate..." rather than "I would appreciate...")

I quite enjoy that sort of slight quirk - it's a bit like listening to my French and Russian co-workers, I like hearing their accents and it doesn't stop me from understanding, so maybe you don't need to worry so much about your English.

If you do want to write like a native speaker, I'm not sure that reading alone will be much help from where you are. It might be more useful to find a good editor or beta-reader to catch those little details.

 

[J_R_Ashunwhy]

You might try the stories on the toplists; I haven't looked in all the categories, but at least in Lesbian those usually have pretty good English.

From your comment here, it looks as if your English is already pretty good. There are just a few very subtle things that give you away as a non-native speaker (e.g. "I will appreciate..." rather than "I would appreciate...")

I quite enjoy that sort of slight quirk - it's a bit like listening to my French and Russian co-workers, I like hearing their accents and it doesn't stop me from understanding, so maybe you don't need to worry so much about your English.

If you do want to write like a native speaker, I'm not sure that reading alone will be much help from where you are. It might be more useful to find a good editor or beta-reader to catch those little details.

^I second that. Your opening post was well written, but if it would help you to feel more comfortable to post your story, seek out one of the volunteer editors available on the site.

Willkommen und Viel Glück!

 

[Hypoxia]

I am most fluent in COBOL. Aenglish is difficult for me but I soldier on.

 

[Hard_Rom]

Ah speyt aenglish reeight well, much betta than ah doa klingon. Ah av eur chuffin' bad terran accent.

 

[BuckyDuckman]

Hi you all,

I've just made a (very) rough outline for a story I'd love to write and submit, but I am very self-conscious regarding my English. The vocabulary for erotic contexts is already specific enough, but since it turns out I am also inclined to write something fantasy/scify-like, I am now getting worried. I realise I will always make mistakes, but I would like to create the feeling that I did what could have been expected of me to prevent them.

So, does anyone face the same problem and have you already come up with strategies to improve your English writing?
My problem is also that the stories on here vary a lot in their style and use of vocabulary, so I find it hard to learn from example. Has anyone got one or two examples of stories that are particularly well written (vocabulary, grammar, style - from a native language speaker's perspective). Lesbian themes would be my preference, but as long as it has vaginas in it, it will serve the purpose.

I will appreciate any advice!

I have reached out a writing friend of mine who happens to be German, too. I shared a link to this thread. No promises that he will contact you, but he could be uniquely qualified to help. I've read a few of his stories and you'd never guess he wasn't a native English speaker. Good luck!

 

[Blind_Justice]

Hi there! I'm the guy BuckyDuckman mentioned.

Believe me, I know that feeling of self-consciousness, of constantly second-guessing every damn word I write.

Some background, to understand where I'm coming from. I've had a typical German education. Hauptschule up to grade 7, then Gymnasium and Abitur, with English as my second Leistungskurs. After that, University (Englisch Literaturwissenschaften and Medienwissenschaft), but I never graduated, went into IT instead.

I've written Sci-Fi (mostly cyberpunk) and Fantasy stories in German for most of my life, but when a decidedly erotic element crept into my writing, I realized that German as a language just doesn't cut it. It's either too flowery or much too blunt when writing about sex, so I tried English instead and found it much easier to write about sex. Much wider vocabulary options and all that.

Around late 2011, early 2012, I've been passing mails back and forth with an author here on Lit after I spotted some typos and omissions in his stories. I edited some of his work for him and one day, when feeling especially brave, I sent him one of my drafts to have a look at. He liked it a lot and urged me to publish it. That was "Ghost in the Machine 1".

Now, four years and 25 submissions later, I SHOULD be calm and experienced enough to crank out material like crazy, but I still find myself sitting in front of my computer, asking myself what the fuck I'm doing here.

There are a few things you can do to boost your confidence. The first step should be obvious: Read as much as you can. Learn from the best, not only in word choice or sentence structure, but plot structuring, atmosphere building and all that. I've been reading my favourite authors (William Gibson, Michael Moorcock, Terry Pratchett and R.A. Salvatore) in English before I put a single word to paper, but their style did influence me quite a bit. If that's a good or a bad thing is still up for debate.

Then you should write as much as possible. With each story you write, with each paragraph you write, you'll get better. Don't be afraid to ask for help! Before publishing, find an editor to look over your draft. The first few times will sting like all hell, but if your editor is up to scratch, he or she will point out your errors and you can refine your writing. Believe me, I'd be fucked without one. My stories look only this good because I had a decent editor at my side for each and every one of them.

And despite all of this, every time I hit that "Submit" button, I half expect to be laughed out of town for being a stupid hack. That feeling has yet to go away.

 

[oggbashan]

...

And despite all of this, every time I hit that "Submit" button, I half expect to be laughed out of town for being a stupid hack. That feeling has yet to go away.

You don't have to be writing in a second language to get that feeling. I think that is a normal response for anyone creating anything and exposing the completed work to the public.

I would add more advice to the original poster - Go for it! Post some stories and see what reaction you get. Some might be unkind or cruel, but once you have posted the first, the next ones are easier. The best way to learn to write is just to do it.

 

[tomlitilia]

I too write in English as a second language. I wouldn't say I lack confidence exactly, but I know I make annoying mistakes that I wouldn't have done in my native tongue. Finding yourself an editor is my best advice, and learn the pattern of your mistakes. I.e. don't just make the correct changes from the editor comments, but also learn from your mistakes. As much as I know the correct grammar for e.g. we're, were and where, I still make mistakes that I for some reason don't pick up when I edit. I occasionally search through my stories for all words I stuff up on to make sure they are all correct.

As for finding an editor, you may not want to say straight away that you're not native. I got zero replies when I did that. And fair enough, I get that editors might not have the patience to deal with something that's almost unrecognizable. But from your post, it seems you're actually quite good at English. I know for my self, I may make mistakes that a native speaker wouldn't do, but I also do a whole lot of things right that many native speakers miss. I base that on reading stories here.

 

[CountessClara]

Thank you - style examples?

Thanks a lot for your advice so far! Especially to those of you who've shared their experience.
Sure, I was going to look for an editor before submission, but I was actually anticipating what tomlitilla mentioned: that native speakers wouldn't want to bother with messed up vocabulary, because if the 2nd language speaker screwed it, nobody will know what he or she meant. Also, I'm afraid that I will not be capable of giving back anything in return - unless (maybe) in the plot/character/atmosphere-department.

Of course it's normal to be consious about one's writing - I also experience that with German. But what got me concerned in the first place was the feeling of not knowing whether or not a given story I happen to be reading is well-written in a specific passage, that is difficult for me to pick up - or if it's actually a weird expression on the author's part, which would indicate to me that I better not try to adapt it. If that makes sense.
That's why I was asking for specific stories to learn from. I try to read the best-rated stories - of course. But I can never tell if the rating is reflective of polished style or merely of the fact that the story itself hooked the reader. Because, you know, I only give ratings for the story, I don't pay much attention to the language, so I'm assuming that maybe other readers have done the same thing, so that a quirkily-written story will end up with a great rating for its content alone.

 

[oggbashan]

...

That's why I was asking for specific stories to learn from. I try to read the best-rated stories - of course. But I can never tell if the rating is reflective of polished style or merely of the fact that the story itself hooked the reader. Because, you know, I only give ratings for the story, I don't pay much attention to the language, so I'm assuming that maybe other readers have done the same thing, so that a quirkily-written story will end up with a great rating for its content alone.

High rating means popularity, not necessarily the quality of the English. The sex scenes might be graphic and the storyline compelling. If those are present, the technical aspects of the writing are comparatively unimportant. If it is well-written as well, that's a bonus.

As a German speaker writing in English, your grammar is likely to be better than a native English speaker, and possibly too precise. Dialogue is likely to be your problem because spoken English is much less accurate than written. I have to balance between writing dialogue to be read from a screen and an accurate rendering of what might actually be said. If you listen to an informal conversation between two English speakers, an accurate transcription wouldn't read well because of pauses, interruptions and completing another person's statement. The balance in writing is between the informality of the spoken word and conveying the sense of the interaction.

 

[Miasorrow]

High rating means popularity, not necessarily the quality of the English. The sex scenes might be graphic and the storyline compelling. If those are present, the technical aspects of the writing are comparatively unimportant. If it is well-written as well, that's a bonus.

As a German speaker writing in English, your grammar is likely to be better than a native English speaker, and possibly too precise. Dialogue is likely to be your problem because spoken English is much less accurate than written. I have to balance between writing dialogue to be read from a screen and an accurate rendering of what might actually be said. If you listen to an informal conversation between two English speakers, an accurate transcription wouldn't read well because of pauses, interruptions and completing another person's statement. The balance in writing is between the informality of the spoken word and conveying the sense of the interaction.

Exactly. What you say is very accurate and to the point and you are making it hard for me to post after you.

But I will.

 

[Miasorrow]

English is my second language and even though I studied it since I was little, I still cannot recognize some profound grammar and vocabulary mistakes.
I have posted only one story which is a letter. Before I post it, I asked an editor to read it and he did some slight corrections that made all the difference. I would not be able to track them down on my own.
My letter is short though and I am not sure if the reader can trace me as not being a native speaker.

 

[Blind_Justice]

Also, I'm afraid that I will not be capable of giving back anything in return - unless (maybe) in the plot/character/atmosphere-department.

Don't say that. Your posts read like you've got more than just the fundamentals down and every author is grateful for a second pair of eyes to catch those typos or fuck-ups that slip under their radar. Granted, I've only edited for a handful of people, but even those who claim to be very good at self-editing tend to mess up from time to time.

Besides, editing isn't a one-sided thing, it's a dialogue between editor and author. Sure, there are some hard, unshakable rules (like putting a period at the end of a sentence ), but you can at least ask if the author intended to word a specific passage like he did. Sometimes you'll get a "nope, that really was a screw-up".

@Ogg: You nailed it on the head with the dialogue. I'm STILL struggling to get well-flowing dialogue going.

 

[oggbashan]

English is my second language and even though I studied it since I was little, I still cannot recognize some profound grammar and vocabulary mistakes.
...

Neither can most Literotica readers (and authors).

I think you and CountessClara are worrying too much. Your posts indicate a competent use of English. Grammar and vocabulary mistakes are far less important on Literotica than the ability to tell a story, and to make the sex believable.

 

[oggbashan]

Dialogue in English

It is difficult, but not impossible, to create extended dialogue with more than two speakers. It is very easy to confuse yourself and the reader with three or more people talking.

Readers tend to skip the identifiers 'he said'; 'she said' and get distracted by adverbs or adjectives 'she said gushingly'; 'he said abruptly'.

I don't consider myself an accurate writer of English. I make grammatical mistakes and anonymous sometimes tells me to watch my grammar, so I am reluctant to offer my stories as examples, but this story is mainly dialogue:

https://www.literotica.com/s/two-tarts-in-a-kitchen

You might notice the number of times one of the women interrupts the other, leading to sentences ending with ... I have interruption fewer times than would actually happen in real conversation, just enough to give a flavour of fast interaction.

There are probably a few longer statements than in a genuine conversation but I wrote to be read from a screen, not as a play script.

 

[Serafina1210]

Ogg is actually a fine writer of English, and Anonymous, when he points out grammatical errors, is usually wrong.

Your English is fine, Clara, for the expository parts of your stories: fluent, not stilted. Dialogue is harder unless you've spent a fair amount of time in an English-speaking country.

Make sure you know the basic contractions; remember that "that" is often omitted at the beginning of that-clauses; few people say "who" at the beginning of relative clauses, but rather "that"; people often speak in sentence fragments.

I think the best of my recent stories for dialogue is this:

https://www.literotica.com/s/augustinas-confession

American English, though. There are lots of differences from British.

 

[GoldenMaia]

Mmmm...German...that is all.

Not helpful to this post at all. Just...German. Yummy.

Also not really on topic (sorry), but I really wanted to write my German-speaking character speaking but always feel like, as a 'Merican, I will really screw it up so I just cheat. (Besides, how many readers would even know what was said without a translation? ) Just my freaky kink of having someone purring German in my ear.

Anyway.... My English grammar as an English speaker is horrific. I still get decent ratings so--honestly, don't sweat the details. Have fun!

 

[legerdemer]

Thanks a lot for your advice so far! Especially to those of you who've shared their experience.
Sure, I was going to look for an editor before submission, but I was actually anticipating what tomlitilla mentioned: that native speakers wouldn't want to bother with messed up vocabulary, because if the 2nd language speaker screwed it, nobody will know what he or she meant. Also, I'm afraid that I will not be capable of giving back anything in return - unless (maybe) in the plot/character/atmosphere-department.

Of course it's normal to be consious about one's writing - I also experience that with German. But what got me concerned in the first place was the feeling of not knowing whether or not a given story I happen to be reading is well-written in a specific passage, that is difficult for me to pick up - or if it's actually a weird expression on the author's part, which would indicate to me that I better not try to adapt it. If that makes sense.
That's why I was asking for specific stories to learn from. I try to read the best-rated stories - of course. But I can never tell if the rating is reflective of polished style or merely of the fact that the story itself hooked the reader. Because, you know, I only give ratings for the story, I don't pay much attention to the language, so I'm assuming that maybe other readers have done the same thing, so that a quirkily-written story will end up with a great rating for its content alone.

I am also not a native English language speaker. I learned my English in the US while going to school, the hard way - no ESL programs, just picking it up as I went along. I have lived in the US a long time. Still, occasionally, people do detect a slight something that is different, however - and it is like Ogg said - speaking more carefully than most native speakers, being more conscious of grammar. While I was learning, watching American TV helped a ton - and that will be very helpful for writing dialog, even more than reading. If you're in a place that overdubs the spoken English in movies, that's a problem.

If you want to have a look at my writing as an example, the link to my author page appears in my signature. I'm not offering my stories as an example of awesomeness, but rather as an example of someone writing sort of like you.

 

[CountessClara]

Thank you all very much again! I will make sure that I pay special attention to dialogue - I watch a lot of English youtube channels and a handful of series, so maybe that will help me more than reading alone. I have also thought of buying a book, just to have some exemplary source, that I fully trust.

I have constantly been aiming for an English sort of style in my German writings anyways (like trying to stick to short and precise sentences and use crystal clear vocabulary (don't reach! ) instead of going crazy with metaphors - I've actually read Strunk and White at university) and have always been most diligent in building dialogue, so whenever I'm in doubt, I will try to stick to the principles that I've already internalized. I think I'd be in bigger trouble if writing an erotic story in English was my first literary deed. *takes a deep breath and continues writing*

 

[oggbashan]

One tip - don't trust Word's spelling and grammar checker wholly. It is useful for detecting too many spaces between words but it fails on verb agreement with two subjects separated by an 'and' or words meaning a group; finds too many 'fragments' in dialogue; and suggests word replacement for sexual terms that are just wrong.

I wish Word could be adapted to your own style of writing. In the ancient days of IBM XTs and 5.25 inch floppies I had WordStar 1512 that allowed you to build your own custom dictionary. When I upgraded my computer and changed to WordStar 2000+ I imported my custom dictionary as well. It was nearly as large as WordStar 1512's original, with thousands of place names, work-specific technical terms, and all the rude words for Literotica.

 

[CountessClara]

fuck word anyways

I don't ever use word, because it's constantly breaking down on my macbook (and yes, it's a legal copy I bought in a package at an Apple distributer for 100€ or something like that. Other students have told me they're having the same problem with this program. It's a disaster.) I use Libre Office, I'll see how that'll turn out. ^^ But up until now it has been running smoothly.

 

[Macdaddy23]

I don't ever use word, because it's constantly breaking down on my macbook (and yes, it's a legal copy I bought in a package at an Apple distributer for 100€ or something like that. Other students have told me they're having the same problem with this program. It's a disaster.) I use Libre Office, I'll see how that'll turn out. ^^ But up until now it has been running smoothly.

That's Microsoft for you though since they made the program it's bad coding is why Word breaks on you Clara. Word can be a strange program especially if it's on a macbook.

 

[le_kitty]

I don't ever use word, because it's constantly breaking down on my macbook (and yes, it's a legal copy I bought in a package at an Apple distributer for 100€ or something like that. Other students have told me they're having the same problem with this program. It's a disaster.) I use Libre Office, I'll see how that'll turn out. ^^ But up until now it has been running smoothly.

lol. I run Pages on my Mac.

For the purpose of Lit I convert it to a doc. file.

Re: english and native speakers. Back in high school we had an exchange student from Germany and she spoke English quite fluently, I'm sure you're the same. You grasp the language, and for storytelling, that's really all you need. The rest is just expression and being a native speaker isn't an indicator of being able to express well through the written form.

So if that's what you're worried about, put your mind at ease.

I would not recommend reading the vast majority of Lit for improving your grammar... but any well written published novel will do, though I would recommend the classics. I am also... not strictly a native english speaker and it's impossible to tell. Haruki Murakami is a good example, if you're looking for a positive example.

Apparently, German is easier to spell than English because it's written the way it's supposed to sound, or so I'm told.