Greece is a case study in what Bernie is talking about

[BoyNextDoor]

We hear for over a year about how Greece is destabilizing the world economy. Then they really bring in austerity so the 1% can continue to have more than the 99% combined. Now we can see that there is a true crisis - there is violence in the streets, strikes, the farmers are marching on the capitol ... real crisis.

But since none of the Oligarchy are impacted, nothing on TV, in the press, nothing in the papers ... no crisis.

Best quote I saw from a Greek was " ... like the movie the Hunger Games, and Greece is the district 12"

 

[MrRandyWatson]

What in the blue hell does this have to do with Bernie Sanders? Yes, Greece is Europe's toilet right now due to people not paying their fair share and massive debt and unemployment, but where does Bernie Sanders fit into this?

 

[Sean Renaud]

Citation if possible is nice.

 

[BoyNextDoor]

It is an example of public policy designed around creating conditions where the 1% can continue to have more than the 99% combined. That is the meat of Bernie's message.

 

[BoyNextDoor]

Citation if possible is nice.

What would you like me to cite? Reports of the violence?

 

[Hard_Rom]

Greece is not in trouble from 1% elite having it all. They are in trouble from having things like everyday joes working in civil service working 40 weeks a year and getting paid for 53. A string of populist governments giving school janitors there own union and caving into outrageous wages and benefits. Not even proper socialism or Marxism, run away vote buying by the politicos.

Greedy 1% buying off greedy 99% with pie in the sky government budgets. Greece has no great natural resources which are akin to money in the bank.

Greece's best bet is as a tax haven. No way they can convince population to give up their entitlements now. They riot in the streets from austerity measures.

Greece needs to fail. Just like declaring bankruptcy and starting over with protection from creditors and massive union pay and benefit cuts. Become the Mexico of Europe.

But the entitled masses won't accept that. The fools brought it on themselves. Not just the 1% but the whole country.

Greece will go the way of Romania and Bulgaria. The youth will leave and only old poor folk will be left.

 

[RUlookingup]

Citation if possible is nice.

There is no citation. It is being covered up you fool. The internet and truth is scrubbed. Just like what you quislings want to do here.

 

[Hard_Rom]

http://www.businessinsider.com/tempers-flaring-up-again-in-greece-2016-2

No cover up. It's just old news. Here in NA American politics are the stories being chosen to sell newspapers (and modern WWW equiv.)

Greeks rioting over austerity measures. You could recycle a 2014 news item and compare with 2016 news item. No difference in motivations or results. It's not news, it's normal day to day living in Greece. We are bored of it and have moved on.

Even refugees drowning in the Med. Sea are page two or three now.

Newspaper sell newspapers. What sells newspapers is what gets reported.

 

[RUlookingup]

http://www.businessinsider.com/tempers-flaring-up-again-in-greece-2016-2

No cover up. It's just old news. Here in NA American politics are the stories being chosen to sell newspapers (and modern WWW equiv.)

Greeks rioting over austerity measures. You could recycle a 2014 news item and compare with 2016 news item. No difference in motivations or results. It's not news, it's normal day to day living in Greece. We are bored of it and have moved on.

Even refugees drowning in the Med. Sea are page two or three now.

Newspaper sell newspapers. What sells newspapers is what gets reported.

The media are carnival barkng whores.

 

[Hard_Rom]

I don't understand how people can look at the situation in Greece and not realize that's where the U.S. is headed.
We won't stop spending. If Hillary or Bernie is elected, the spending and taxes will only increase. Interest rates will rise eventually, and then our budget explodes. We'll have to borrow just to pay the interest.

Ugh!

In that case all western democracies are going that way. Not just the US. All have ballooning debt.

Republican governments operate in the black and reduce deficits! Gimme a break.

 

[JackLuis]

Greece is a case study of where Goldman Sacks the treasury and sells out the country to German Bankers who then suck out the dregs of peoples savings. A case study of not taxing the wealthy who export their capital to tax heavens and leave the country high and dry.

 

[Hard_Rom]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor.../Greece-why-did-its-economy-fall-so-hard.html


Greece has long lived beyond its means and spent much of the last two centuries defaulting on its debts. Joining the euro was meant to put an end to all that. However, it merely seems to have exacerbated its problems. It was no surprise to any economist that the European Union, at first, refused to allow the country to join the euro when the new currency started in 1999.


Quite simply, its debts were too high and inflation was out of control. By 2000, the EU finally allowed it to join, though there were suspicions at the time that Greece was operating a "limbo dance" – squeezing its figures to hit the stringent euro criteria, only for them to flip back to dangerous levels once it had entered. Indeed many believe Greece simply lied about its figures to gain entry.


At the time its inflation was 4 per cent, much higher than the European average, and was suffering from one in ten people out of work – a higher figure than currently in recession-hit Britain. By joining the euro, however, it suddenly enjoyed substantially lower interest rates, because the it was able to borrow in euros. Whereas during the 1990s, Greece had frequently had to pay out 10 per cent or more (18 per cent in 1994) to borrow money, its rate fell dramatically to 3 per cent or 2 per cent.

Ben May, Greek economist at think tank Capital Economics, said: "Their mistake was to go out, borrow money and use it to fund huge wage growth, rather than pay down its already substantial debts."

Greece went on a spending spree, allowing public sector workers' wages to nearly double over the last decade, while it continued to fund one of the most generous pension systems in the world. Workers when they come to retire usually receive a pension equating to 92 per cent of their pre-retirement salary. As Greece has one of the fastest ageing populations in Europe, the bill to fund these pensions kept on mounting.

Tax evasion, endemic among Greece's wealthy middle classes, meant that the Government's tax revenues were not coming in fast enough to fund its outgoings. *Income tax is not deducted from paychecks. You are required to pay when filing of tax returns*

Hosting the Olympics in 2004, which cost double the original estimate of €4.5 billion, only made matters worse.

By the start of this year Greece's debt had hit €300 billion, more than the entire value of its annual GDP. This is unlikely to fall quickly, as its current budget deficit – how much its borrowing exceeds tax receipts – is running at 13.6 per cent of its gross domestic product, twice the Eurozone average.

Things have come to a head because the international rating agencies have cut Greece's credit rating, concerned that it will default on its debts. This has the immediate effect – just as when a credit agency cuts a consumer's rating – of pushing up the cost of its borrowing, setting off a vicious spiral.

 

[NeonSubtlety]

most European countries have a lower national debt, as compared to gdp, than America -- including all of those countries that Bernie talks about when structuring his plan for socialized medicine. France, UK, scandanavia, canada...all lower. Even Spain is lower. If Greece is the cautionary tale, then many of these countries represent the upside.

 

[The_Trouvere]

Bernie Sanders' ideal is neither Greece nor Venezuela but Scandinavia.

I doubt that there are many Scandinavians who choose the United States as their ideal, not with our crime, our poverty, and our gun loving goons.

Americans are still debating things that are settled issues in civilized countries.

 

[Hard_Rom]

Annexation by Canada is the US' only hope. Changes will be hardly even noticeable.

Powers will devolve down from the fed. (strong central government)
Consolidate legislative and executive powers in one elected individual. (less bickering and arguing)
Increased regulation of banking. (stability in face of global monetary crisis)
Universal healthcare. (healthy happy citizens)
Utopian ideals of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness will be replaced with achievable goals of peace, order and good government. (L,L and PoH not states mandate anyway)
Only modest curtailment of freedom of speech. (no KKK or Nazis)
Slight increase in police powers. (law and order rule)
Almost no change in culture, morals and ethics. (Hollywood execs will be happy)
90% of Americans won't even notice the change. (10% can be new minority)
We celebrate confederation July 1st not 4th. Make for extra long weekend. (mob will like that)
Change of name to Confederate States of America. (okay maybe we can talk about a new name)

 

[RUlookingup]

Annexation by Canada is the US' only hope. Changes will be hardly even noticeable.

Powers will devolve down from the fed. (strong central government)
Consolidate legislative and executive powers in one elected individual. (less bickering and arguing)
Increased regulation of banking. (stability in face of global monetary crisis)
Universal healthcare. (healthy happy citizens)
Utopian ideals of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness will be replaced with achievable goals of peace, order and good government. (L,L and PoH not states mandate anyway)
Only modest curtailment of freedom of speech. (no KKK or Nazis)
Slight increase in police powers. (law and order rule)
Almost no change in culture, morals and ethics. (Hollywood execs will be happy)
90% of Americans won't even notice the change. (10% can be new minority)
We celebrate confederation July 1st not 4th. Make for extra long weekend. (mob will like that)
Change of name to Confederate States of America. (okay maybe we can talk about a new name)

Fuck you, go build an igloo.

 

[Hard_Rom]

Fuck you, go build an igloo.

Would love to but global warming has made this such a shitty warm winter we don't even have enough ice to go ice fishing. Had to cancel Family Day stat holiday ice fishing tournament and a charity pond hockey game.

 

[RUlookingup]

Would love to but global warming has made this such a shitty warm winter we don't even have enough ice to go ice fishing. Had to cancel Family Day stat holiday ice fishing tournament and a charity pond hockey game.

Go play some hockey.

 

[Dream_Operator]

Greece will go the way of Romania and Bulgaria. The youth will leave and only old poor folk will be left.

I spent some time in Romania about a year ago, and the situation in Romania is improving. Degreed IT professionals now pay no income tax, which has ended a lot of the brain drain to other EU countries. Most Romanians don't want to emigrate, they are very family oriented and don't want to leave, but unemployment is high and wages are very low. And because they speak English very well, it is becoming a software development hub for many multi-nationals, and wages are increasing. The country also has abundant natural resources and agricultural.


The biggest problem is that nearly half of the people work for the government and the bureaucracy is beyond belief. It is insane the hoops you have to jump through to do business there.

 

[Dream_Operator]

I find it...interesting, when people throw out the Scandinavian countries as examples of what the U.S. should aspire too. It's both ludicrous and unrealistic at the same time.

Much of their GDP comes from North Sea oil, which is what Regressives, like Obama and Bernie, want to eliminate.

And the one percenters -- athletes and businesmen simply relocate to Monaco to escape the 80% marginal tax rate.

Manufacturing is dying - Nokia, Saab, Volvo, etc.

The once homogeneous Scandinavian counties are now being force-fed Muslim refugees in the name of fairness and diversity, and they are now revolting.

 

[RUlookingup]

I find it...interesting, when people throw out the Scandinavian countries as examples of what the U.S. should aspire too. It's both ludicrous and unrealistic at the same time.

Combined the Scandinavian countries have about 26 million people.
The US has 300 million and growing quickly.

The history of the two areas is drastically different, and the diversity of the population is wildly different as well.

We could go on and on about demographics, industries, borders, growing season, and overall economic differences but what's the point. We might as well compare Hawaii vs Europe.

Socialism, Democratic Socialism..whatever you want to call it, has a history of failure so complete only the left would consider it viable.

Can anyone name something socialism has produced...besides misery?

P.S. What did Bernie do before being elected? Anything? No wonder he likes socialism, he's sponged off the system his entire life.

It didn't work in the Russia, so they came.here and want to try all over again. The Communists brought their ilk here in droves after the Russian revolution. When we fought World War II, our cities were infiltrated with those who would play the part.of their muscle (shout out to the Missouri professor and Quisling). Bernie is their.poster child. This has been in the works for generations now. It must end definitively. McCarthy was correct decades ago. The Quislings run our.media. Dissent is not allowable. They are being hoisted by their own petard by one Donald Trump. The jig is up. The people are on to the lies.

 

[Hard_Rom]

Go play some hockey.

I just told you the ice is to thin! Like most of your arguments.

 

[Dream_Operator]

I just told you the ice is to thin! Like most of your arguments.

This was one of the strongest El Niños in many years -- that's why your Winter was so warm and has nothing to do with AGW.

 

[RUlookingup]

I just told you the ice is to thin! Like most of your arguments.

Why don't you cut a hole in the ice and go fishing.

 

[Hard_Rom]

This was one of the strongest El Niños in many years -- that's why your Winter was so warm and has nothing to do with AGW.

Yeah, probably. Just don't get the glorious snow filled winters like we did when I was a kid. Nice LP system from Colorado Plateau replaced by wet LP system out of northern Texas.

Only a couple of hundred miles difference but huge diff in what weather it brings to SW Ontario.