The Best Noir Writers Have No Readers

[NOIRTRASH]

http://www.deadendfollies.com/2011/07/allan-guthries-ten-rules-to-write-noir.html

How true.

 

[JackLuis]

http://www.deadendfollies.com/2011/07/allan-guthries-ten-rules-to-write-noir.html

How true.

"Life is a bitch, and then... you die!"

If I want to be depressed, I'll read the news. While I do like good writing and have read some noir stories, I prefer to read more uplifting stories as they brighten my day.

If you want a real challenge Jimmy, try writing a noir humor story. Ironic gallows humor in the midst of a gritty LA cop investigation that ends with the bad guy getting elected and the cop indited, but, you know funny.

 

[SamScribble]

It made me smile. Does that make me a bad person?

 

[Desiremakesmeweak]

"Get scared, make bad decisions, and suffer."

In other words they're human, and we can identify with them. And they get into bad situations, often of their own making. In other words, we can identify with them.

I like noir-but-under-the-still-working-street-light. You know, where the main character gets to have sex with the dame in the cheap motel with a bottle of bourbon around the place somewhere and there is a chance the dumb police detective won't find the body of the big crook beneath the rose beds newly covered in black wood chips and blood-and-bone and won't notice that the motel bill was paid using one of the crisp new bank notes the big crook had from his last and REALLY HUGE heist.

In other words, we can identify with them.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

"Get scared, make bad decisions, and suffer."

In other words they're human, and we can identify with them. And they get into bad situations, often of their own making. In other words, we can identify with them.

I like noir-but-under-the-still-working-street-light. You know, where the main character gets to have sex with the dame in the cheap motel with a bottle of bourbon around the place somewhere and there is a chance the dumb police detective won't find the body of the big crook beneath the rose beds newly covered in black wood chips and blood-and-bone and won't notice that the motel bill was paid using one of the crisp new bank notes the big crook had from his last and REALLY HUGE heist.

In other words, we can identify with them.

I came upon a pile of 1950s noir by Lawrence Block, all of it strong stuff, featuring female villains. Well written, too. The one with the female serial killer I remember from my childhood; my dad bought it and passed it along to me.

In my old age I think noir writers do best when they employ stereotypes for characters. My old man was the Marlboro Man (joined the Marines at 13 and was a combat vet and 15 when World War 2 ended). Did some time in prison for armed robbery. He was involved with organized crime as a cattle rustler. And he devoutly believed pussy was made for fucking. Women loved him, men got out of his way. He and I usta brawl a lot. So he's my stereotype. I have a hunch he may appeal to plenty of female readers....if I get the female stereotype correct.

 

[HandsInTheDark]

I came upon a pile of 1950s noir by Lawrence Block, all of it strong stuff, featuring female villains. Well written, too. The one with the female serial killer I remember from my childhood; my dad bought it and passed it along to me.

In my old age I think noir writers do best when they employ stereotypes for characters. My old man was the Marlboro Man (joined the Marines at 13 and was a combat vet and 15 when World War 2 ended). Did some time in prison for armed robbery. He was involved with organized crime as a cattle rustler. And he devoutly believed pussy was made for fucking. Women loved him, men got out of his way. He and I usta brawl a lot. So he's my stereotype. I have a hunch he may appeal to plenty of female readers....if I get the female stereotype correct.

This is the way it's "supposed" to work - write a hard-ass, testosterone washed male with all the cliched male characteristics - taciturn, settles things with fists, slaps the dames etc - and women readers will swoon.

In practice? Not so much. That kind of male can have success in real life - plenty of women will drool over his relentlessly-Y-chromosome style, and try to stay downwind of his scent.

But erotica gives readers time to think, and doesn't release the cloud of pheromones real people do. And if a reader thinks about a person like that for too long, all the obvious downsides of hanging around him become obvious. Things women need - commitment, security, some basic empathy, etc - are lacking, and the whole emotional house of cards can come down.

What seems to be working for me is the callous selfish male who turns out to have a heart of gold and a willingness to commit he didn't know he had. When that aspect of him shows up, ratings jump. If he sleeps with someone else after that, I get complaints.

At the risk of making a highly questionable, JBJ style generalization - women want to be worshipped. By which I mean they love themselves some hardass field-playing male who suddenly finds he can't look at anyone but her. In practice that kind of guy is mostly fantasy - a player who learns to play the field will always play the field, until his dick stops working. But no one's here to write reality.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

This is the way it's "supposed" to work - write a hard-ass, testosterone washed male with all the cliched male characteristics - taciturn, settles things with fists, slaps the dames etc - and women readers will swoon.

In practice? Not so much. That kind of male can have success in real life - plenty of women will drool over his relentlessly-Y-chromosome style, and try to stay downwind of his scent.

But erotica gives readers time to think, and doesn't release the cloud of pheromones real people do. And if a reader thinks about a person like that for too long, all the obvious downsides of hanging around him become obvious. Things women need - commitment, security, some basic empathy, etc - are lacking, and the whole emotional house of cards can come down.

What seems to be working for me is the callous selfish male who turns out to have a heart of gold and a willingness to commit he didn't know he had. When that aspect of him shows up, ratings jump. If he sleeps with someone else after that, I get complaints.

At the risk of making a highly questionable, JBJ style generalization - women want to be worshipped. By which I mean they love themselves some hardass field-playing male who suddenly finds he can't look at anyone but her. In practice that kind of guy is mostly fantasy - a player who learns to play the field will always play the field, until his dick stops working. But no one's here to write reality.

I inherited all my old man's better angels, and I've been married 43 years to a woman who wanted John Wayne. She got John Wayne, more or less. I treat her right, our children like me, and I know what a pussy is for. I dont worship her but I know better aint out there. I learned to live with her flaws. That's maturity. If they got great tits they gotta fat ass or a gut. Its always something. They don't come from the factory perfect.

My mother never learned she couldn't do better. And after my old man died she went for the gusto (she was a young woman with a ton of money my old man left her). She caught an Arab MD immigrant to America. They had big plans that included her fortune. So she gave him the money for his medical practice, and he hauled ass back to the Middle East. She was broke and alone, and killed herself. I sold her car and house and made trusts for my minor siblings, and got $359 after all the bills were paid. So she's my idea for noir women. Attractive, smart, and always ready to trade up.

 

[Peach102]

Noir is one of the most misused labels. 90% of what is currently called noir is raelly just hardboiled.

Noir is bleak shit, with few appealing characters.

Allen Guthrie, the author of the OP's linked posting, is a smart dude and an overall cool dude to hang with.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

LIT readers demand conformity to political orthodoxy (whatever they imagine it to be).

 

[JackLuis]

LIT readers demand conformity to political orthodoxy (whatever they imagine it to be).

Or their version of unothodoxy as kinky as that may be. Whatever tickles their fancy fanny.

 

[lovecraft68]

This is the way it's "supposed" to work - write a hard-ass, testosterone washed male with all the cliched male characteristics - taciturn, settles things with fists, slaps the dames etc - and women readers will swoon.

In practice? Not so much. That kind of male can have success in real life - plenty of women will drool over his relentlessly-Y-chromosome style, and try to stay downwind of his scent.

But erotica gives readers time to think, and doesn't release the cloud of pheromones real people do. And if a reader thinks about a person like that for too long, all the obvious downsides of hanging around him become obvious. Things women need - commitment, security, some basic empathy, etc - are lacking, and the whole emotional house of cards can come down.

What seems to be working for me is the callous selfish male who turns out to have a heart of gold and a willingness to commit he didn't know he had. When that aspect of him shows up, ratings jump. If he sleeps with someone else after that, I get complaints.

At the risk of making a highly questionable, JBJ style generalization - women want to be worshipped. By which I mean they love themselves some hardass field-playing male who suddenly finds he can't look at anyone but her. In practice that kind of guy is mostly fantasy - a player who learns to play the field will always play the field, until his dick stops working. But no one's here to write reality.

The difference between you and James is what you know about women-and a lot fo men-couldn't fill a thimble. You're generalizations are out of 50's pulps and 'men
s adventure' type magazines.

I'm beginning to equate your schtick with LJ reloaded in the GB. This persona is the result of being totally dominated by a controlling shrew who unmans you daily, hence all the men are tough women are weak crap we get.

 

[Peach102]

"Life is a bitch, and then... you die!"

If I want to be depressed, I'll read the news. While I do like good writing and have read some noir stories, I prefer to read more uplifting stories as they brighten my day.

If you want a real challenge Jimmy, try writing a Noir humor story. Ironic gallows humor in the midst of a gritty LA cop investigation that ends with the bad guy getting elected and the cop indited, but, you know funny.

I used to be a big fan of Noir, but as I have aged, I have lost my taste for it. I still devour hard-boiled and pulpy fiction (Both of which have a lot of fantastic novels being released each year).

The difference between you and James is what you know about women-and a lot fo men-couldn't fill a thimble. You're generalizations are out of 50's pulps and 'men
s adventure' type magazines.

I'm beginning to equate your schtick with LJ reloaded in the GB. This persona is the result of being totally dominated by a controlling shrew who unmans you daily, hence all the men are tough women are weak crap we get.

I was about to say the same thing, he is talking about pulp novels, not Noir or even hard-boiled, which most mistake for Noir.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

At my old age, and after a long life, I conclude I'm the dummest rock on the path to Hell, and all are my superiors, even the larval. The real marvel is how did I make it this far!

 

[TxRad]

At my old age, and after a long life, I conclude I'm the dummest rock on the path to Hell, and all are my superiors, even the larval. The real marvel is how did I make it this far!

Dumb luck and a low profile.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

Dumb luck and a low profile.

^^^^^my spiritual daddy

 

[49greg]

I realized the other day that I'm writing, well lately not writing, a sort of noir story. It's based on a search for money or gold that doesn't belong to anybody. It's set just post WW2.

And it doesn't and won't ever have readers. Mainly because I doubt I'll finish it, and even if I do I'll never let go of it. Last time I read over what I have done, I saw that it's predictable drek.

There is a nice scene that's sort of sexy, I thought that I might steal it and put in a story here, Hmmmm, there's not actual sex, but it might qualify for a voyeur exhibitionist story.