Jonathon Haidt

[Ishmael]

This is picked up from a post by Aella_ in another thread.

I thought I was being clever but seems like you guys get good training at your think tanks…


Actually, I liked this guy a bit more, even if he's a conservative. Even though he's a bit too focused on temperament and values (less social factors etc.), what he says makes a lot of sense. Moreover, he's more focused on explaining the goods and bads of each side & how they could work together instead of… well, this forum speaks for itself.

https://www.ted.com/talks/jonathan_h...nd?language=en

What do you think of him? I'm sure that you know him.

An interesting talk and worth listening too..............but...........

Haidt subscribes to the notion that an individuals predilection to be conservative, liberal, or middle of the road is genetically based. Predetermined as it were. (He states as much in his book, "The Righteous Mind”.)

I couldn't disagree more. I've known far too many people that have 'evolved' from one to the other and in some cases 'from, to, and then back to from' again. I can't quite subscribed to the notion that one's genetic makeup changes over time.

I do believe that there are a number of complex factors that contribute to ones political/ethical makeup. Family upbringing, peer pressure, life experiences and observations as young adults and adults. Economic status (and goals) plays into this as well.

Generally speaking (emphasis on Generally) I've observed that conservatives tend to see the world as it is, liberals as they believe it should be, and the middles as just wanting to avoid the burden of having to declare one way or the other. Ironically both conservatives and liberals both have similar convictions regarding the improvement of the human condition. They have profound differences as to how to achieve that goal. Liberals tend to act like indulgent parents whereas the conservative leans towards the "tough love" side of the fence.

In this observation I do not include those individuals that the liberal indulges. They are going to be liberal, not due to any reasoned thought process, but merely because they don't want the 'indulgences' to end. Ending the 'indulgences' would burden them with having to take responsibility for their own lives.

Regardless, I disagree with the notion of genetic predisposition.

Ishmael

 

[Hard_Rom]

It may not be genetic. That is a trait passed down through genes, But an individuals wiring of their brain could be the reason. And that can be influenced. Many studies show folk get more conservative with age.

Most studies show racist are made not born.

We all have individual personal characteristics. Many can be broadly correlated as conservative or liberal reactions to stimuli.

Genetic, no. Built in, yes. Permanent, no. But very hard and slow to change. You don't go from being liberal to conservative overnight. It takes time and reason.

We have spent more time worrying about if the cave bear in the next valley is a danger than we have spent worrying about if the tribe chief is a lefty or righty wing leader. I think much of our thought processes are still driven by some primitive impulses.

 

[Ishmael]

It may not be genetic. That is a trait passed down through genes, But an individuals wiring of their brain could be the reason. And that can be influenced. Many studies show folk get more conservative with age.

Most studies show racist are made not born.

We all have individual personal characteristics. Many can be broadly correlated as conservative or liberal reactions to stimuli.

Genetic, no. Built in, yes. Permanent, no. But very hard and slow to change. You don't go from being liberal to conservative overnight. It takes time and reason.

We have spent more time worrying about if the cave bear in the next valley is a danger than we have spent worrying about if the tribe chief is a lefty or righty wing leader. I think much of our thought processes are still driven by some primitive impulses.

On this we can agree. Technology has advanced far faster than the human being can reasonably be expected to evolve to accommodate. The problem is that, as it was back in Roman times, people mistake technological advance to societal advance. They see this technology as proof that humans are more than human now.

I think that we're fooling ourselves. But that's not a new phenomena.

Ishmael

 

[cleaver]

genetic predisposition
is not entirely out of the question...
if one is to accept that certain seminal aspects
(such as gender identity or personal "tastes") are so predisposed.

certainly, when it comes to political bent,
external factors
(such as socio-economic situation, religious affiliation/training, even geographic placement and historical context...et al)
have greater impact upon one's eventual leanings...

the child is often ingrained
with the political understandings of the parents...
as is their activism/passivism...

just as the racism/lack thereof is often "nurtured"
before "better learning" takes hold to correct the imperfections...

i do believe that there is a natural center
to each individual's eventual disposition;
and that it is a wondrous blend of nature and nurture...

not unreasonable to consider that political center is determined so as well?

 

[Bert Notorius]

my dad was conservative. my mom was probably liberal but voted mostly conservative.

oldest sister...big time liberal.
older brother...big time liberal
younger older sister...was a big time liberal turned conservative
me...conservative
younger brother...don't know but probably conservative.

i dunno. genes are randomized to cover all the bases.

 

[Ishmael]

genetic predisposition
is not entirely out of the question...
if one is to accept that certain seminal aspects
(such as gender identity or personal "tastes") are so predisposed.

certainly, when it comes to political bent,
external factors
(such as socio-economic situation, religious affiliation/training, even geographic placement and historical context...et al)
have greater impact upon one's eventual leanings...

the child is often ingrained
with the political understandings of the parents...
as is their activism/passivism...

just as the racism/lack thereof is often "nurtured"
before "better learning" takes hold to correct the imperfections...

i do believe that there is a natural center
to each individual's eventual disposition;
and that it is a wondrous blend of nature and nurture...

not unreasonable to consider that political center is determined so as well?

Nothing is ever
out of the question.
There is an infinity
of possibilities.

My father, by every external measure
was a 'racist'
But his graveside service was attended
by more blacks than whites
and this in Mississippi.

And while that seemed to puzzle the established
white population, they chattered for days.
It never puzzled me.

He was a conservative that never
patronized anyone.
But would help anyone to be
independent.

Ishmael

 

[Aella_]

I feel a bit embarassed to see my name as part of this thread starter; I'm used to seeing my name as part of bashing threads starter. Thanks, Ish.
But I just can't help myself, I Really Want To Be A Bitch: I bet you won't see any of the f… g assholes who attacked me in those bashing threads, posting here in the next 200 years. But you'll definitely see them in any "Playground-type" thread.

(just quickly passing by, I will post a bit more later on, if that's ok).

 

[Ishmael]

I feel a bit embarassed to see my name as part of this thread starter; I'm used to seeing my name as part of bashing threads starter. Thanks, Ish.
But I just can't help myself, I Really Want To Be A Bitch: I bet you won't see any of the f… g assholes who attacked me in those bashing threads, posting here in the next 200 years. But you'll definitely see them in any "Playground-type" thread.

(just quickly passing by, I will post a bit more later on, if that's ok).

OK, you're a bitch. Can we move on now?

OK? If you're asking that, shouldn't you be posting in the BDSM forum seeking a Master?

Ishmael

 

[Aella_]

I personally liked a lot of the things that he said. But I felt, too -indeed- that he was a bit too stuck on just one aspect, aka temperament and biology.

I felt that this talk was a bit more "multifaceted":

Ideology IV: Temperament and Ideology (The Agenda with Steve Paikin)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GRGkYjf1GO4

P.S.
I will watch instead of contributing (I'm not in the right head-space right now for a debate). Hope you will keep coming up with these threads, tho (I enjoyed reading through the ones that you put up over the last couple of days.)

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

This is picked up from a post by Aella_ in another thread.



An interesting talk and worth listening too..............but...........

Haidt subscribes to the notion that an individuals predilection to be conservative, liberal, or middle of the road is genetically based. Predetermined as it were. (He states as much in his book, "The Righteous Mind”.)

I couldn't disagree more. I've known far too many people that have 'evolved' from one to the other and in some cases 'from, to, and then back to from' again. I can't quite subscribed to the notion that one's genetic makeup changes over time.

I do believe that there are a number of complex factors that contribute to ones political/ethical makeup. Family upbringing, peer pressure, life experiences and observations as young adults and adults. Economic status (and goals) plays into this as well.

Generally speaking (emphasis on Generally) I've observed that conservatives tend to see the world as it is, liberals as they believe it should be, and the middles as just wanting to avoid the burden of having to declare one way or the other. Ironically both conservatives and liberals both have similar convictions regarding the improvement of the human condition. They have profound differences as to how to achieve that goal. Liberals tend to act like indulgent parents whereas the conservative leans towards the "tough love" side of the fence.

In this observation I do not include those individuals that the liberal indulges. They are going to be liberal, not due to any reasoned thought process, but merely because they don't want the 'indulgences' to end. Ending the 'indulgences' would burden them with having to take responsibility for their own lives.

Regardless, I disagree with the notion of genetic predisposition.

Ishmael

It sounds like a discussion of "time preference" (von Mises, Human Action, The Theory of Money and Credit). Do you, like a lot of the poor feel the need to have what you can buy right now or are you willing to deny gratification now for a larger quantity or quality in the future. It is the same reason people make loans. This is the proper market and this is how interest rates should be set, not by a Central Federal Bank.

Similarly, in politics, the "Liberal*" wants immediate gratification, taxation and programs, the moderate centrist wants just a little government now (usually in the form of regulations upon others and industries of which they have no knowledge) and the Libertarian believes that if an outcome is clearly desired across the spectrum, then let individuals work in cooperation towards that goal, for to impose upon all creates conflict and unintended consequences. The "Conservative" is situationally a Liberal (on moral grounds) and a Libertarian (on some economic ground, mainly in his own self interest).

An example of both Liberal and Conservative is discussed here through the topic of free speech and the economic Law of Diminishing Marginal Utility.

https://mises.org/library/when-youre-popular-you-dont-need-freedom-speech


PS - nor do I believe it is genetic. Measuring (Rand, Objectivism) is and so is choosing. As each individual experiences life across the spectrum of their life, they will also engage in a spectrum of choices. At the beginning of life there is an urgency to acquire things, at the end of life their is an urgency to enjoy them and in the middle you can continue the path prior, or begin to plan for the "Golden Years."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wd2clb5T8JA

PPS - The New Age Liberal* is of that former choice, to remain infantilized and demand a strong social net, for other people, of course, who do not have it so well, but in reality is is the selfish desire to have everyone else pay for his "retirement."



* And as I have mentioned often, it is my contention that this is now the fig leaf under which Socialism hides.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

I feel a bit embarassed to see my name as part of this thread starter; I'm used to seeing my name as part of bashing threads starter. Thanks, Ish.
But I just can't help myself, I Really Want To Be A Bitch: I bet you won't see any of the f… g assholes who attacked me in those bashing threads, posting here in the next 200 years. But you'll definitely see them in any "Playground-type" thread.

(just quickly passing by, I will post a bit more later on, if that's ok).

OK, you're a bitch. Can we move on now?

OK? If you're asking that, shouldn't you be posting in the BDSM forum seeking a Master?

Ishmael

No, a cunt.

​