Carson on Muslims in US Presidency

[BoyNextDoor]

“Muslims feel that their religion is very much a part of your public life and what you do as a public official, and that’s inconsistent with our principles and our Constitution.”

I suppose if a person were to put their faith above the law and more pointedly when given a choice between their faith and the law chose their faith, it would be indirect conflict with their Oath.

JFK was pressed on the issue and had this response:

Whatever issue may come before me as president — on birth control, divorce, censorship, gambling or any other subject — I will make my decision in accordance with these views, in accordance with what my conscience tells me to be the national interest, and without regard to outside religious pressures or dictates. And no power or threat of punishment could cause me to decide otherwise.

But if the time should ever come — and I do not concede any conflict to be even remotely possible — when my office would require me to either violate my conscience or violate the national interest, then I would resign the office; and I hope any conscientious public servant would do the same.


I think the key is in bold. So if the officeholder were not willing to "resign the office", then they are not worthy of the office, IMO.

 

[phrodeau]

Goes for Christians like Kim Davis, too.

 

[BoyNextDoor]

Goes for Christians like Kim Davis, too.

100%. I was thinking that the question/concept should apply to all those that profess a religious affiliation, for any office. It would be nice to have an atheist on one of these debate panels.

I am sort of curious what the muslim Congressman said for his Oath of Office:

“I, AB, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion, and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.”

 

[lovecraft68]

Goes for Christians like Kim Davis, too.

But the Christians like her get thrown in jail and reviled by the PC mob(people like you) if a Muslim was in her position and did the same, then they would eb a hero for sticking to their faith, they sure as hell would have never been jailed, that would have been racist!

 

[BoyNextDoor]

I think if you were to reread the posts and take off your asshole-colored glasses you'd see that I neither said nor believe anything like that.

Have a nice day

 

[Hypoxia]

Dr Carson, seeking to be the nation's highest constitutional officer, seems unfamiliar with the constitution, specifically the No Religious Test clause in Article VI, paragraph 3:

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.​

An "oath or affirmation" need not invoke invisible friends for moral support. "I swear on my honor as an ethical atheist" should do.

This message is hidden because lovecraft68 is on your ignore list.

See, LC bothers me not at all any more.

 

[someoneyouknow]

Considering the number of Christians elected to office, and their opinions of how their religion should be forced down everyone's throats, Dr. Carson might want to revise his statement as well as look in the mirror.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

You Nimrods forget that voters decide whats what.

Perry and Walker expressed some dum shit opinions and now theyre gone. Plenty more are just about kaput because they have no clue what matters to voters. People want jobs, queers back in their closets, niggers in jail, and Mexicans in Mexico. I'm waiting patiently for the first candidate to say nnnnnnnnnigger and win his crown.

 

[Sean Renaud]

But the Christians like her get thrown in jail and reviled by the PC mob(people like you) if a Muslim was in her position and did the same, then they would eb a hero for sticking to their faith, they sure as hell would have never been jailed, that would have been racist!

Only because they wouldn't live long enough to serve prison time. And as much as I hate religion there is something noble about having the balls to die for what they believe.

So in short the PC mob wouldn't get a chance to fuck with her because it would NEVER get to that point. It wouldn't be racist at all.

 

[phrodeau]

100%. I was thinking that the question/concept should apply to all those that profess a religious affiliation, for any office. It would be nice to have an atheist on one of these debate panels.

I am sort of curious what the muslim Congressman said for his Oath of Office:

“I, AB, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion, and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran_oath_controversy_of_the_110th_United_States_Congress

In mid-November 2006 it was reported that Keith Ellison, the first Muslim elected to the United States Congress (for Minnesota's 5th congressional district), "will take his oath of office with his hand upon the Qur'an, the Islamic holy book".
...
On January 3, 2007, the Washington Post announced that Ellison "will hold the personal copy once owned by Thomas Jefferson" loaned to him by "the rare book and special collections division at the Library of Congress".
...
Ellison was impressed by the two-volume set, saying "Look at that. That’s something else. Oh my God. This is great."

 

[Liar]

Um... Calling Allah God is not inconsistent with Islam. Except for some fundies maybe.

 

[midwestyankee]

As we've seen with Trump, Carson's statement on Muslims in the government will hardly cost him support; in fact, it might well increase his poll numbers a bit. They've let the bigotry genie out of the bottle and I think he's starting to lobby for a bigger bottle.

 

[sr71plt]

100%. I was thinking that the question/concept should apply to all those that profess a religious affiliation, for any office. It would be nice to have an atheist on one of these debate panels.

I am sort of curious what the muslim Congressman said for his Oath of Office:

“I, AB, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion, and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.”

Were you not aware that the Jewish, Islamic, and Christian religions descend from the same root Abrahamic religion and all believe in the same God?

 

[Ulaven_Demorte]

But the Christians like her get thrown in jail and reviled by the PC mob(people like you) if a Muslim was in her position and did the same, then they would eb a hero for sticking to their faith, they sure as hell would have never been jailed, that would have been racist!

Wrong.

The office of the County Clerk has no religion. the office holder is not acting on their own behalf, but on the behalf of the government in the performance of their duties while in that office. The religion of the office holder is immaterial, if they are unable to perform the functions of their office as dictated by the law then they should resign.

 

[Ulaven_Demorte]

Dr Carson, seeking to be the nation's highest constitutional officer, seems unfamiliar with the constitution, specifically the No Religious Test clause in Article VI, paragraph 3:

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.​

An "oath or affirmation" need not invoke invisible friends for moral support. "I swear on my honor as an ethical atheist" should do.

See, LC bothers me not at all any more.

I pointed exactly this out to a friend of mine today. By Dr. Carson's own stated criteria he has disqualified himself for the office of President, since his beliefs are at odds with the constitution.

 

[midwestyankee]

And we have a winner! Ding! Ding! Ding!

On Fox News, Cruz defended Carson.

"I like Ben Carson. I think Ben is fantastic. I think a lot of people are just using this as an opportunity to smack him with a stick. My view is straightforward," Cruz said. "The Constitution says there shall be no religious test for holding public office, and I'm a constitutionalist, but I think this whole noise is obscuring the broader question."

"The broader question, and what I think Ben was trying to get at, is what are the consequences been in the last six and a half years of the Obama presidency?" Cruz stated.​

Source: Fox News Video (answer begins at about 1:15)

In other words, all this talk about the perils of having a Muslim president are a way to talk, in somewhat coded language, about the perils of living under the Obama presidency. Tell it like it is, Teddy Boy.

 

[someoneyouknow]

Here is the truly hilarious part about all this. Right now large segments of the Republican party are apoplectic about a black person being elected president.

However, portions of this same group are no doubt nodding their head and agreeing with this black guy who is running for president.

 

[bhurry]

And we have a winner! Ding! Ding! Ding!

On Fox News, Cruz defended Carson.

"I like Ben Carson. I think Ben is fantastic. I think a lot of people are just using this as an opportunity to smack him with a stick. My view is straightforward," Cruz said. "The Constitution says there shall be no religious test for holding public office, and I'm a constitutionalist, but I think this whole noise is obscuring the broader question."

"The broader question, and what I think Ben was trying to get at, is what are the consequences been in the last six and a half years of the Obama presidency?" Cruz stated.​

Source: Fox News Video (answer begins at about 1:15)

In other words, all this talk about the perils of having a Muslim president are a way to talk, in somewhat coded language, about the perils of living under the Obama presidency. Tell it like it is, Teddy Boy.

What is. even as we speak this is true. He,s the greatest thing since ice cream ask him or most of the nuts on here.. Time will tell

 

[dan_c00000]

“Christians feel that their religion is very much a part of your public life and what you do as a public official, and that’s inconsistent with our principles and our Constitution.”

I changed it around a little because it equally applies to religious clowns like Carson and Huckabee. Their, extremely absurd, version of what America is does not include a diverse landscape of religions.

In fact, preventing religion from having anything to do with government was Madison and Jefferson's main goal with the First Amendment.

 

[midwestyankee]

And, of course, what's the obvious next step when you have a hint of controversy: raise money off it, of course.

"The money has been coming in so fast, it's hard to even keep up with it," he said Wednesday morning on Fox News, when asked about whether his comments had affected his donations. "I remember the day of the last debate, within 24 hours we raised $1 million. And it's coming in at least at that rate if not quite a bit faster."​

Source: CNN

 

[sr71plt]

"Christians feel that their religion is very much a part of your public life and what you do as a public official, and that’s inconsistent with our principles and our Constitution.”

I changed it around a little because it equally applies to religious clowns like Carson and Huckabee. Their, extremely absurd, version of what America is does not include a diverse landscape of religions.

In fact, preventing religion from having anything to do with government was Madison and Jefferson's main goal with the First Amendment.

Ascribing anything like that to "all Christians" is disingenuous. Madison and Jefferson were both church-attending Episcopalians. Jefferson even wrote his own version of the Christian Bible. So, the point with Madison and Jefferson is that you can be a practicing Christian and still strongly support separation of church and state.

 

[Raziel83]

"Christians feel that their religion is very much a part of your public life and what you do as a public official, and that’s inconsistent with our principles and our Constitution.”



Ascribing anything like that to "all Christians" is disingenuous. Madison and Jefferson were both church-attending Episcopalians. Jefferson even wrote his own version of the Christian Bible. So, the point with Madison and Jefferson is that you can be a practicing Christian and still strongly support separation of church and state.

Didn't Jefferson's version of the Bible remove all the "magical, supernatural and mystical" things? As in he made a Bible that he believed was more realistic. No more references to Jesus making miracles happen or coming back from the dead. In fact, no more references to Jesus being divine either. Jefferson did not believe in supernatural things and his "better" version of the Bible wasn't a religious book, it was merely a book about a guy called Jesus giving suggestions on how to be a better person without any claims of having divine power over others.

In fact here is a quote from Wikipedia:
"Jefferson wrote that “Jesus did not mean to impose himself on mankind as the son of God.” He called the writers of the New Testament “ignorant, unlettered men” who produced “superstitions, fanaticisms, and fabrications.” He called the Apostle Paul the “first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus.” He dismissed the concept of the Trinity as “mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus.” He believed that the clergy used religion as a “mere contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves” and that “in every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty.” And he wrote in a letter to John Adams that “the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.”"

So saying that Jefferson was a Christian is a bit of a stretch and the reason he supported the separation of church and state was because he was openly hostile to Organized religion and feared it would be the doom of USA.

And lets talk a bit about the hypocrisy here. JFK made that speech where he defended himself saying that his religion won't make him act against America's interests because he was a Catholic. He was a Christian, but because he happened to be Catholic Christian some people were afraid that he would be taking orders from the pope.

This is no different than all the fear of the "Muslim Obama" (not that it appears to be true anyway) decades later. Some people in USA are afraid of the president following the teachings of his religion IF that religion is not the same as theirs. Meanwhile a lot of Christian politicians openly speak about their religion and claim that they will follow the teachings of their particular brand of Christianity even if it contradicts with the laws and the constitution of USA (this is not that rare, we have a similar problem with a few politicians here) and a large number of voters applaud them simply because they share the same particular brand of religion.

In fact, the same people who scream about Sharia law coming to USA are willing to violate the constitution if they could make Christianity and laws of the Bible become the law of the land.

 

[Hypoxia]

I carved a couple more gods today. They disagree over whether Dr Carson has shamed them or himself. I expect this divine dispute to escalate to thunderbolts, floods, plagues of locusts and weevils and head lice, and bad theology. Just the usual.

 

[sr71plt]

Didn't Jefferson's version of the Bible remove all the "magical, supernatural and mystical" things? As in he made a Bible that he believed was more realistic. No more references to Jesus making miracles happen or coming back from the dead. In fact, no more references to Jesus being divine either. Jefferson did not believe in supernatural things and his "better" version of the Bible wasn't a religious book, it was merely a book about a guy called Jesus giving suggestions on how to be a better person without any claims of having divine power over others.

Yep, but how does that negate him being a Christian? This thread was equating all claimed Christians with evangelical nutbags--and using Jefferson and Madison as some sort of counter example. Not all claiming to be Christian are evangelical nutbags, and if Jefferson and Madison are examples of anything, this is what they are examples of.

I don't believe in the literal truth of all the miracle mumbo jumbo either. Like Jefferson, I believe that was just allegorical speak and not believing they are literal truth isn't necessary to identifying as a Christian. In Virginia at the time, neither Jefferson nor Madison (or Washington for that matter) could have been elected to road sweeper without identifying as a Christian (and Episcopalian at that). They all identified as Christian while promoting separation of church and state. I do the same while declaring as Christian. We aren't all evangelical nutbags.

 

[Raziel83]

Yep, but how does that negate him being a Christian? This thread was equating all claimed Christians with evangelical nutbags--and using Jefferson and Madison as some sort of counter example. Not all claiming to be Christian are evangelical nutbags, and if Jefferson and Madison are examples of anything, this is what they are examples of.

I don't believe in the literal truth of all the miracle mumbo jumbo either. Like Jefferson, I believe that was just allegorical speak and not believing they are literal truth isn't necessary to identifying as a Christian. In Virginia at the time, neither Jefferson nor Madison (or Washington for that matter) could have been elected to road sweeper without identifying as a Christian (and Episcopalian at that). They all identified as Christian while promoting separation of church and state. I do the same while declaring as Christian. We aren't all evangelical nutbags.

Whether or not someone's beliefs count as Christian is a very difficult matter since there are so many different branches of Christianity with differing views but since Jefferson did not believe that Jesus was anything more than a good man and neither did he seem to believe in God it does seem like he wasn't a Christian. In fact a bit of work in Google gets me this:

https://www.monticello.org/site/research-and-collections/jeffersons-religious-beliefs
"...Jefferson believed in the existence of a Supreme Being who was the creator and sustainer of the universe and the ultimate ground of being, but this was not the triune deity of orthodox Christianity..."

And wikipedia at least gives a similar conclusion that he was not a Christian even if he did believe that some deity or being must have created the world.