NO! No, no, no, no, NO!

[Katiecat]

Sad to think I find all of these humorously wonderful. Thinking back, some of the first things I wrote mirror these. "potent needy liquid desire" Sounds like bourbon - I like bourbon. It's the main ingredient in mint juleps. Guess I have the derby on my mind.

Not sad at all...everyone has different taste. I see them as humously -- hilariously -- awful. They'd be wonderful lines if she had been intending humor, but she wasn't.

"Potent needy liquid desire" isn't the part that concerns me. It's when that potent liquid makes her "insides practically contort", "combusts deep in my belly", and "strange muscles clench deep in my belly suddenly" that makes it sound like intense intestinal distress and she needs to run for the bathroom. And good bourbon would never do that to you.

 

[slyc_willie]

Not sad at all...everyone has different taste. I see them as humously -- hilariously -- awful. They'd be wonderful lines if she had been intending humor, but she wasn't.

"Potent needy liquid desire" isn't the part that concerns me. It's when that potent liquid makes her "insides practically contort", "combusts deep in my belly", and "strange muscles clench deep in my belly suddenly" that makes it sound like intense intestinal distress and she needs to run for the bathroom. And good bourbon would never do that to you.

Unless you had too much of it.

I think I'm beginning to see the appeal of E.L. James' writing. She describes things the way a melodramatic teenager, just beginning to understand how to use metaphors, but not yet adept at choosing the right one, would write. I think that strikes a chord with many Americans, at least, most of whom read and write at the eighth grade level at best and wouldn't really understand the intricacies of using a good metaphor.

"Life is like . . . like a swirling tub of sticky yogurt, filled with the crushed peanuts of dead dreams and the mashed cherries of lost hope. And we just eat it all up with a spoon and pat our bellies when they're full."

. . . someone, somewhere, would read that and swoon as if it was the wisdom from the Dalai Lama, I'm willing to bet.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Unless you had too much of it.

I think I'm beginning to see the appeal of E.L. James' writing. She describes things the way a melodramatic teenager, just beginning to understand how to use metaphors, but not yet adept at choosing the right one, would write. I think that strikes a chord with many Americans, at least, most of whom read and write at the eighth grade level at best and wouldn't really understand the intricacies of using a good metaphor.

"Life is like . . . like a swirling tub of sticky yogurt, filled with the crushed peanuts of dead dreams and the mashed cherries of lost hope. And we just eat it all up with a spoon and pat our bellies when they're full."

. . . someone, somewhere, would read that and swoon as if it was the wisdom from the Dalai Lama, I'm willing to bet.

Most of us go to McDonalds and WALMART, too.

Twain warned of how we fret over grammar and spelling Shakespeare made up.

 

[slyc_willie]

Most of us go to McDonalds and WALMART, too.

Twain warned of how we fret over grammar and spelling Shakespeare made up.

I'll trade you a pound of oranges for a pound of apples, Jimbo.

But I think you managed to dent the head of the nail with your first remark. The crowd that's gobbling up Fifty Shades of BS isn't interested in the intricacies behind the subject matter. They're following along with James' similar lot of misinformation and social assumption. They don't research, and don't care to; they're willing to take what's printed and accept it for the sake of satisfying their own limited fantasies regarding the material.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I'll trade you a pound of oranges for a pound of apples, Jimbo.

But I think you managed to dent the head of the nail with your first remark. The crowd that's gobbling up Fifty Shades of BS isn't interested in the intricacies behind the subject matter. They're following along with James' similar lot of misinformation and social assumption. They don't research, and don't care to; they're willing to take what's printed and accept it for the sake of satisfying their own limited fantasies regarding the material.

James didn't invent awful popular writing. Noir, especially, is larded with a battalion of bad writers who did OK, and Mickey Spillane was their king. And he wasn't Raymond Chandler or Ian Fleming or Charles Willeford tho he sold lotsa books.

 

[glynndah]

I subscribe to several "get this Kindle books free" sites. Lately I've noticed the plot of quite a number of these books can be summed up as "Billionaire Dom meets a poor/naive {with an occasional bit of sass, sometimes} 'I never realized I was a sub' woman".

How about a book where the Dom ISN'T ludicrously wealthy or, if he IS a billionaire, he's into furries or something?

 

[TxRad]

I subscribe to several "get this Kindle books free" sites. Lately I've noticed the plot of quite a number of these books can be summed up as "Billionaire Dom meets a poor/naive {with an occasional bit of sass, sometimes} 'I never realized I was a sub' woman".

How about a book where the Dom ISN'T ludicrously wealthy or, if he IS a billionaire, he's into furries or something?

I remember a time when all men were into furries.... Oh, wait.... Uh... never mind.

 

[glynndah]

I remember a time when all men were into furries.... Oh, wait.... Uh... never mind.

Furries was the furthest thing from dom billionaire I could think of.

Now I'm imagining the hero from that book drooling after somebody in a raccoon suit. Quite the picture in my head.

{And yes, I know exactly what you meant by "furries", Tx.}

 

[CyranoJ]

Fifty Shades of Furry.

 

[Dream_Operator]

I hear there is an entire chapter devoted to the word "Flush".

 

[Katiecat]

I subscribe to several "get this Kindle books free" sites. Lately I've noticed the plot of quite a number of these books can be summed up as "Billionaire Dom meets a poor/naive {with an occasional bit of sass, sometimes} 'I never realized I was a sub' woman".

How about a book where the Dom ISN'T ludicrously wealthy or, if he IS a billionaire, he's into furries or something?

Yes, I've noticed this trend, too...copycats trying to ride the formula band wagon. Might as well use a cookie cutter. After Charlaine Harris' Southern Vampire Mysteries (the Sookie Stackhouse series) became really popular and spawned the HBO series True Blood, I started seeing a lot more paranormal romances -- especially love triangles between a girl, a vampire, and a werewolf. And Sookie Stackhouse (2001) was before Twilight (2005).

It's funny, I read somewhere if Christian Grey had been unattractive and poor, Fifty Shades of Grey would have been a stalker crime novel.

 

[Katiecat]

Fifty Shades of Furry.

Okay...this belongs on the Free Association thread, but I couldn't help but think of this.

 

[CyranoJ]

Nice segue!

 

[slyc_willie]

James didn't invent awful popular writing. Noir, especially, is larded with a battalion of bad writers who did OK, and Mickey Spillane was their king. And he wasn't Raymond Chandler or Ian Fleming or Charles Willeford tho he sold lotsa books.

Oh, man, Mickey Spillane. When I was a kid I loved the "Mike Hammer" TV series and later managed to find some of Spillane's novellas. The descriptions at times were atrocious. I think I remember a line reading something like, " . . . she stuck out like a nipple against a T-shirt on a cold day" or thereabouts. But Spillane wasn't looking to emulate Hemingway or Faulkner or even Chandler. He was writing one-sided, misogynistic, ego-stroking mens adventure yarns that struck a chord with men wanting to escape into a world in which men were men, women were easy, the bad guys always lost, cigarettes never broke and bourbon was never bad.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Yes, I've noticed this trend, too...copycats trying to ride the formula band wagon. Might as well use a cookie cutter. After Charlaine Harris' Southern Vampire Mysteries (the Sookie Stackhouse series) became really popular and spawned the HBO series True Blood, I started seeing a lot more paranormal romances -- especially love triangles between a girl, a vampire, and a werewolf. And Sookie Stackhouse (2001) was before Twilight (2005).

It's funny, I read somewhere if Christian Grey had been unattractive and poor, Fifty Shades of Grey would have been a stalker crime novel.

It woulda been DELIVERANCE-lite

 

[glynndah]

Oh, man, Mickey Spillane. When I was a kid I loved the "Mike Hammer" TV series and later managed to find some of Spillane's novellas. The descriptions at times were atrocious. I think I remember a line reading something like, " . . . she stuck out like a nipple against a T-shirt on a cold day" or thereabouts. But Spillane wasn't looking to emulate Hemingway or Faulkner or even Chandler. He was writing one-sided, misogynistic, ego-stroking mens adventure yarns that struck a chord with men wanting to escape into a world in which men were men, women were easy, the bad guys always lost, cigarettes never broke and bourbon was never bad.

Try reading a couple of pulp fiction classic Doc Savage novels.

 

[slyc_willie]

Try reading a couple of pulp fiction classic Doc Savage novels.

Very true. The Man of Bronze was very indicative of the "mens adventure" genre of writing. Early Clive Cussler books had Dirk Pitt painted in a very similar vein, as I recall. Characters were two-dimensional, the main character always got laid when he wanted and the women were usually stereotypes of Marlene Dietrich . . . just more willing to jump in the sack with the books' protagonist because he was such a "man's man."

After all, even the most self-assured woman swoons at the feet of an alpha male, right?

 

[TamLin01]

I always find it a touch suspicious when so many people feel they must go this far out of their way to communicate distaste for something, even up to the point of broaching the topic themselves, unsolicited.

 

[slyc_willie]

I always find it a touch suspicious when so many people feel they must go this far out of their way to communicate distaste for something, even up to the point of broaching the topic themselves, unsolicited.

I'm not exactly going out of my way to post here. It doesn't take more than a minute or two. And overall, I find the entire situation to be pretty humorous.

 

[TamLin01]

I suppose. I just notice that there are always a few pop culture phenomena that the general public are curiously eager to complain about, even to the point of changing the subject for the express purpose of providing a soapbox for it. Recently: "Twilight," Bieber, EL James. (Always something marketed at women, I notice.) The criticisms aren't wrong; I just detect something like insecurity or defensiveness in how zealously eager folks are to leave no potential for ambiguity (perhaps in this case we should say, "No shades of gray?" Yeah? Yeah? Yeah? ...yeah?) when distancing themselves from the subject of their ire. It's to the point of making a statement of identity politics, like wearing a team jersey or putting up your country's flag.

 

[slyc_willie]

I suppose. I just notice that there are always a few pop culture phenomena that the general public are curiously eager to complain about, even to the point of changing the subject for the express purpose of providing a soapbox for it. Recently: "Twilight," Bieber, EL James. (Always something marketed at women, I notice.) The criticisms aren't wrong; I just detect something like insecurity or defensiveness in how zealously eager folks are to leave no potential for ambiguity (perhaps in this case we should say, "No shades of gray?" Yeah? Yeah? Yeah? ...yeah?) when distancing themselves from the subject of their ire. It's to the point of making a statement of identity politics, like wearing a team jersey or putting up your country's flag.

In this particular case, the pop culture phenomena -- E.L. James' Fifty Shades . . . -- is not one that is being universally complained about, but lauded. It is we, on this thread, that are expressing our opinions against the value of the work, which several of us find lacking.

I'm getting the impression that you're reacting to the negative perceptions in this thread by taking a stand against them out of some sense of equilibrium. You stated that the criticisms aren't wrong, and then go on to suggest insecurity or defensiveness as the root cause of the negative reactions.

It could be, you know, that James' work is really just not good at all, and all we're doing is pointing it out. At the same time, considering how much effort many writers put into crafting their stories, the thought that the crap James writes becomes popular might make us reconsider the effort we have thus far made.

I don't think it's an issue of jealousy or defensiveness or insecurity; I think it might be an issue of "why the hell are we trying so hard, when crap like Fifty Shades scoops up the glory?" In other words, it comes down to professional frustration and a disheartening realization that what the public wants may not necessarily be a well-crafted story, but one that is repeatedly and almost forcefully thrown in their faces with much fanfare and flair. Damn the craft; hail the delivery.

A good story will stand the test of time and remain popular across generations. Unfortunately, too many current authors don't want to wait for a few generations to pass.

 

[Katiecat]

In this particular case, the pop culture phenomena -- E.L. James' Fifty Shades . . . -- is not one that is being universally complained about, but lauded. It is we, on this thread, that are expressing our opinions against the value of the work, which several of us find lacking.

I'm getting the impression that you're reacting to the negative perceptions in this thread by taking a stand against them out of some sense of equilibrium. You stated that the criticisms aren't wrong, and then go on to suggest insecurity or defensiveness as the root cause of the negative reactions.

It could be, you know, that James' work is really just not good at all, and all we're doing is pointing it out. At the same time, considering how much effort many writers put into crafting their stories, the thought that the crap James writes becomes popular might make us reconsider the effort we have thus far made.

I don't think it's an issue of jealousy or defensiveness or insecurity; I think it might be an issue of "why the hell are we trying so hard, when crap like Fifty Shades scoops up the glory?" In other words, it comes down to professional frustration and a disheartening realization that what the public wants may not necessarily be a well-crafted story, but one that is repeatedly and almost forcefully thrown in their faces with much fanfare and flair. Damn the craft; hail the delivery.

A good story will stand the test of time and remain popular across generations. Unfortunately, too many current authors don't want to wait for a few generations to pass.

For me, it is disappointment -- I wanted it to be good. I wanted it to be amazing. And it was embarrassingly bad. If you type "terrible writing" or "bad writing", Google automatically completes the phrase "in Fifty Shades of Gray". "Awful" is followed by "quotes from Fifty Shades of Gray". Sir Salman Rushdie said, "I've never read anything so badly written that got published. It made 'Twilight' look like 'War and Peace.'"

Not to mention the BDSM community as a whole hates the series. The acts are often not consenual, Christian frequently ignores Ana's wishes and does not respect her limits, and he literally stalks her after she's asked him to leave her alone and give her some space, traces her phone, and she makes several statements that indicate she feels like a battered woman.

So yeah, huge let down, and I'm incredulous that so many people love it. But people also love books by Nora Roberts and John Grisham that can be incredibly repetitive and formula.

It's definitely not jealousy. If I was going to be jealous, it would be of a successful writer who is really talented -- like J. K. Rowling, Christopher Moore, or Neil Gaiman. But I'm not jealous of their success. I'm delighted with it, and with the wonderful books they have produced.

 

[slyc_willie]

After finding one of those sites that lists some of the lines from the book, I'm really starting to feel bad for the actor and actress who have to actually say them with a straight face in the movies.

Their careers are already over . . . .

 

[TamLin01]

In this particular case, the pop culture phenomena -- E.L. James' Fifty Shades . . . -- is not one that is being universally complained about, but lauded.

I didn't say universally. And there is a difference between being successful and lauded.

It is we, on this thread, that are expressing our opinions against the value of the work, which several of us find lacking.

But there are lots of bad books and bad movies. There are only a handful of bad books and bad movies people seem this motivated to abuse.

You stated that the criticisms aren't wrong, and then go on to suggest insecurity or defensiveness as the root cause of the negative reactions.

You don't think those are mutually exclusive values, do you?

It could be, you know, that James' work is really just not good at all, and all we're doing is pointing it out.

I bet if we probed deeply enough we could 20 successful writers whose work you don't think is good. But only one people are this about aggressive about right now.

At the same time, considering how much effort many writers put into crafting their stories, the thought that the crap James writes becomes popular might make us reconsider the effort we have thus far made.

1. ...okay, that actually just sounds like envy, then. Sorry, but that's basically a textbook definition? "Why is this undeserving person successful and I'm not?"

2. See above notes about other lousy writers.

3. I could pick up the phone right now and find you 15 people who would talk your ear off about how lousy this book is, but none of them are writers.

The public wants may not necessarily be a well-crafted story, but one that is repeatedly and almost forcefully thrown in their faces with much fanfare and flair. Damn the craft; hail the delivery.

Wait a minute, this book was a grassroots success story. It didn't sell because it had a marketing blitz behind it, it got a marketing blitz because it was successful. When it started, it was even more obscure than the work we all feature here.

A good story will stand the test of time and remain popular across generations. Unfortunately, too many current authors don't want to wait for a few generations to pass.

Sort of. A lot of good stories are never popular to begin with. And this criticism is one that's equally valid of the bulk of popular writers in every generation, ever.

 

[Bramblethorn]

After finding one of those sites that lists some of the lines from the book, I'm really starting to feel bad for the actor and actress who have to actually say them with a straight face in the movies.

Their careers are already over . . . .

Dornan also went to a BDSM club to research his role and then mouthed off about how creepy BDSMers are, which didn't really help things.

If he'd been talking about how creepy his character is, now... but if you're trying to market a film as a BDSM romance, maybe find an actor who isn't skeeved out by BDSM? Pretty sure they exist.