'The iron cage of bureaucracy': or, why Kant was wrong.

D

DesEsseintes

Guest
'Act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law', wrote Immanuel Kant in Groundwork of the Metaphysic of Morals. This seems reasonable, on the face of it - a way of avoiding having to reason moral behaviour from first principles every time we are faced with an ethical dilemma. We should only behave in a way that we could accept being the universal way all should behave, always.

But this maxim seems to have been adopted, without any fanfare or fuss, by Western governments, and their entangled secondary and tertiary arms. Not only must every person be treated the same, regardless of individual skill or circumstance, but in case after case, across every branch of society, rules are invented and enforced to diminish the quiddity of every situation, and the individuality of each of us.

Example 1: Filling out a long (13 page) application form for a teaching job. This job, it is important to note, is specifically to bring creativity and originality to a school which, its last inspection noted, was almost entirely lacking. The job specification even uses that dreadful phrase, 'thinking outside the box', as a prerequisite in guiding colleagues to the sunlit uplands of spontaneity and flexibility. Judge, then, of my weary unsurprise, to find that the form is the only acceptable mode of application; that CVs are not accepted as additional information; that one may not even continue, irony of ironies, outside the boxes provided.

But what one must do, without fail, is provide an unbroken sequence of work from the moment one has left university. No room to explain peculiar circumstances. No room to explain a beloved godmother's bequest which made room for a novel, or the child who was conceived almost in tandem with the novel and needed looking after. Nowhere to explain the tit for tat diplomatic visa wars between India and England which left us, briefly, homeless and jobless and without passports. Because teaching applications must be a universal, Kantian law, inflexibly fair to all and thereby fair to none.

Example 2: The friend of mine who, for the first time in his life, needed a small loan for a few months - a matter of £500. He was between jobs and had just moved house. He had the contract of his new job, starting within two months, which would pay after tax more than six times that amount. His house had over £100,000 in equity, and he had proudly never had a credit card, store card or overdraft, let alone a loan, in his life. Fifty years ago, such a man would have had an individual chat with the bank manager who, on hearing his particular circumstances, would practically have written a cheque drawn on his own savings. But now - and again, note the irony - he was refused, by a spotty oik who could barely enunciate the words dictated to him by the computer which made the decision on his behalf and ostensibly in his name. Because of my friend's 'lack of credit history'. In other words, precisely because he was unusually careful with money, he was deemed to be too risky to be trusted with money.

A counter-example: At the time I mentioned above, without a job and technically homeless, my wife and I were at the end of our resources. Our passports were being held by the Passport Office so, because of the high security demanded by teaching jobs, most would not accept us. We had only temporary work, so letting agencies would not touch us. At last, we were interviewing for two positions at connected schools, and had booked a B and B for that night. We had no idea where we would be sleeping the following night. The wonderful landlady, at breakfast the next day, mentioned a friend of hers who let a house as a holiday let. Knowing by now that we had the jobs, were due to start the following week, but with nowhere to sleep, we went to the woman in desperation. Not only did she accept us - she knocked £500 per month off the price because we agreed to stay long term and, even more impressively, when we explained we did not have the deposit cash on us but would happily head to the nearest cash machine, she told us that it was late and that she quite trusted us. She would come back the following evening. We had signed no contract - she had never seen us before - and the house was full of valuable Bang and Olufsen equipment as well as some jewellery. But that simple human trust, without recourse to signatures and proof of identity or any of the bureaucratic trappings we are so used to now - almost brought tears to my eyes, after months of paperwork and officialdom.

That sort of trusting attitude used to be far more common. In fact, in Britain at least (I don't know if the term travels) we had the word 'jobsworth', short for the phrase 'more than my job's worth', to describe precisely the sort of unprofessional lackwit who, distrusting his own judgement, would fall back on the cold letter of the law even in cases where it manifestly did not apply. One hears this word more and more rarely, not because such an attitude is no longer seen but, as Giles Fraser puts in his excellent article which inspired this, because such mindless bureaucratic aggression is now the very air we breathe.

Why has this happened? Those on the right, with some justification, will say it is an inevitable outcome of the left's obsession with equality. That egalitarian outcomes need measuring and enforcing, and that when we leave room for spontaneity, instinctive kindness, flexibility and rule-bending, we may jeopardize those unfortunates who do not benefit from such humane treatment. Certainly that is the case with teaching applications - they used to be happy with a CV and covering letter, which gave plenty of room for originality and personal circumstance. But that method was seen as discriminatory against those who were less than articulate - who could not smooth over awkward gaps in their experience. Leaving aside the point that articulacy and indeed a modicum of intelligence and eloquence might be desirable attributes of an English teacher, this approach levels the playing field by deadening it. The 'tall poppy syndrome' in action.

However, it can equally be attacked from the left. De-professionalisation in so many areas of public life, for reasons of cost - the creeping entryism of zero hours labour, contracted-out workers and temporary staff - means that the discrimination of those who worked in the profession for decades, and learned to tell between genuine misfortune and a sob story, was lost. When you replace a proud, 40 something, pinstriped bank manager with a toothbrush moustache and a draconian attitude to facial hair and shoe polishing, with a 17 year old apprentice and a plastic wallet of appropriate responses, all nuance is gone. All ability to be a professional, in short, and to make our own human judgements.

I do not know what is to be done. I know only that I long to be treated as an individual. I long for the abolition of pre-scripted telephone conversations and 'press button 3' and form-filling. I long for the days when we presumed innocence, and when a gentleman's word was his bond and required no further assurance.

I know, I know. Tl;dr. But I really think this is one of the markers of our age - this flattening of all experience into a binary, box-filling, reductionist paperwork-fetishism - and I would love to hear any ideas, from anywhere on the political spectrum, which might help us regain our individuality, and once more have the right to be treated as a unique human individual.
 
at some point almost every week I wonder to myself if there is any way back from this for society. I have no answers.
 
I know, I know. Tl;dr. But I really think this is one of the markers of our age - this flattening of all experience into a binary, box-filling, reductionist paperwork-fetishism - and I would love to hear any ideas, from anywhere on the political spectrum, which might help us regain our individuality, and once more have the right to be treated as a unique human individual.

As per usual, that was a nice read, Des.

You said the secret word- "Binary" It strikes me as a natural consequence of computerization- You can't think outside the box beyond what the programmer did. I would say "envisioned", but they probably trimmed his budget or hours along the way and compromised the vision.

The world is getting smaller and more cluttered with people, but we're people who don't stay in one place. We're always meeting strangers, and we don't know if we can trust them, because we don't know their families and reputations, and they don't have to stay in one town or county and live with the reputations they earn. They can move on and find others to mistreat, ( even if they have to steal an identity to do it )so they lose incentive for honor.

For that matter, the history of the General Board is a lot like that. People can be sociopathic, and move on or re-invent themselves when they find themselves being shunned or banned, and start over. That leaves others less trusting of everybody that comes along thereafter.

As for regaining individuality, I suppose we can go appropriately, two directions-

1) Surrender all privacy to the government/big business/social media, get yourself microchipped and embrace interconnectedness.

2) Rebel a la Max Headroom's Blank Rege character, and become part of the underground Anarchy.

If those don't seem like viable options, well, I guess we'll forever be under suspicion, we'll be interfacing with un-nuanced technology and unqualified people filling out forms that nobody bothers to read, we'll be getting pigeonholed, , and we'll be getting frustrated.
 
I am not sure what Kant has to do with it. The flattening of human experience, as I see it, is due to the reification necessary in a society built on Capitalism. Lucaks talked a lot about it and observed it as "transformation of human beings into thing‑like beings which do not behave in a human way but according to the laws of the thing‑world."

If you are looking for a way out of it, and a return to treatment as a unique human individual, then from where I sit you need an upheaval that drastically changes (eradicates?) the capitalist fundamental class process and reduces its influence in and on society.

In your example #2, your man could not be reified and so therefore was not able to participate in the system of commerce.
 
As per usual, that was a nice read, Des.

You said the secret word- "Binary" It strikes me as a natural consequence of computerization- You can't think outside the box beyond what the programmer did. I would say "envisioned", but they probably trimmed his budget or hours along the way and compromised the vision.

The world is getting smaller and more cluttered with people, but we're people who don't stay in one place. We're always meeting strangers, and we don't know if we can trust them, because we don't know their families and reputations, and they don't have to stay in one town or county and live with the reputations they earn. They can move on and find others to mistreat, ( even if they have to steal an identity to do it )so they lose incentive for honor.

For that matter, the history of the General Board is a lot like that. People can be sociopathic, and move on or re-invent themselves when they find themselves being shunned or banned, and start over. That leaves others less trusting of everybody that comes along thereafter.

As for regaining individuality, I suppose we can go appropriately, two directions-

1) Surrender all privacy to the government/big business/social media, get yourself microchipped and embrace interconnectedness.

2) Rebel a la Max Headroom's Blank Rege character, and become part of the underground Anarchy.

If those don't seem like viable options, well, I guess we'll forever be under suspicion, we'll be interfacing with un-nuanced technology and unqualified people filling out forms that nobody bothers to read, we'll be getting pigeonholed, , and we'll be getting frustrated.

Thank you for your kind words and thoughtful reply. I'm not sure I really expected a response - it was more a vast blurt of frustration. But I agree that part of the problem is an ever-growing, ever more connected population, and an issue of trust for which our ancestors, evolved to cope in small kinship communities, simply could not prepare us. But speaking of binary - is there not a third way, as Bill Clinton would have put it? What about using our experience, knowledge and intelligence to make judgement calls about other people and their intentions? Like we used to? To be discriminatory, in the non-pejorative sense?

It strikes me as symbolic that the great Latin word discrimen - the mature ability to distinguish and judge - is now almost entirely seen as something negative. Profiling at airports is seen as racist, so we must treat the sick old Norwegian lady flying out of the country for treatment with precisely as much suspicion as the anxious looking Arab man clutching his Koran. It's absurd, as Riles put it so well on dolf's paedophilia thread, to take equality so far that it becomes meaningless.

Welcome to the Progressive age run amok.

Well, I can certainly see that argument. In an effort to get rid of nepotism, subtle corruption, and the wrong sort of discrimination - all laudable efforts, of course - we have got ourselves into a depressing mess. Rather than treat the black man, the gay man, the disabled woman, the poor woman, etc AS WELL as the middle class white man was treated in the 50s, we have settled for a low level tolerance. And isn't the universal approval of that word also sinister in its own way? 'We must be tolerant', goes up the cry. But who wants to be merely tolerated?

I am not sure what Kant has to do with it. The flattening of human experience, as I see it, is due to the reification necessary in a society built on Capitalism. Lucaks talked a lot about it and observed it as "transformation of human beings into thing‑like beings which do not behave in a human way but according to the laws of the thing‑world."

If you are looking for a way out of it, and a return to treatment as a unique human individual, then from where I sit you need an upheaval that drastically changes (eradicates?) the capitalist fundamental class process and reduces its influence in and on society.

In your example #2, your man could not be reified and so therefore was not able to participate in the system of commerce.

I mention Kant because he so loathed the utilitarian principle of treating every situation on its own merits and wanted universal moral rules. It seems to me that we are following his way, and I don't think it works. We should train our public servants (and, indeed, private industry workers too) to be able to make intelligent judgement calls. Except in matters of criminal law, the rules should be seen as guidelines - a helpful framework - not a yes/no flowchart. But then people get upset - 'One rule for him and another for me!' Well, yes. His circumstances are unique, as are yours, and he is unique, as are you. But somehow we never seem to hear that argument made.

I happen to agree with you that what we need to do is destroy the entire mechanism of treating individuals as economic units, and that means, for me, a socialist revolution. But the nanny-state liberal left is as guilty of causing the situation as anyone, and I wanted to hear what a conservative solution might be. I can imagine eyer's libertarian response, which works as a unitary answer to the nanny-state side of things. But libertarianism cannot dictate to business that it wants it to be more discriminatory and more judgemental. It cannot tell a bank to be more flexible in its dealings with customers: at best it might hope that it would feel able to do so once the shackles of regulation are removed. But it cannot ensure so. And in any case, it strikes me as wider than that.

In society as a whole, judgement is bad - 'Don't judge me!'. Discrimination is bad 'We don't discriminate', say large organizations, as if that childish, all must have prizes attitude were something to be proud of. Tolerance is good - in fact, the pinnacle of civic society, it sometimes seems.

What joy there is in this world, where everyone is as good as each other and no one is ever judged, and each of us is tolerated to a precisely mandated, computer generated degree.
 
at some point almost every week I wonder to myself if there is any way back from this for society. I have no answers.

Sorry I missed this! I don't have answers either, except the huge, transformative answer of revolution. But I think it's important to at least ask the question, as we are doing - or, as Reverend Fraser notes, to even notice that there is a question to be asked in the first place.
 
I used to run a community event for my town. It ran for a weekend and was free to participate and view because the local council would sponsor me for the hire of the large hall for the event. They didn't actually lose money because I hired the hall when it wasn't otherwise booked, and the catering, also run by the council, made ten times their normal profit for a weekend.

Then the requirements started increasing. I had to have public liability insurance for five million pounds. The local insurance/finance company sponsored that for me. It cost about forty pounds for the weekend - affordable if I charged exhibitors a small sum for the stalls, or a minimum admission charge of say ten pence. But the local company were paying.

A couple of years later, the local council wanted a full 'risk assessment' completed. The insurers wanted a copy of that, and promptly increased the premium from forty pounds to five hundred pounds - because of masses of claims by the general public against event organisers (aided by no-win, no-fee lawyers).

They took into account one local woman claiming against another open-air event organiser. They had an annual classic car and steam engine rally with various stalls and charged fifty pence per spectator's car (or up to four people on foot) to enter. The woman had climbed a fence to avoid paying the fifty pence. Later on, she had gone behind one of the participant's caravans (everyone suspected she was looking for an open door and some portable items) put her foot down a rabbit hole and twisted her ankle.

She claimed for the injury and stress. The claim was rejected despite her lawyer's wriggling, aided by witnesses who had seen her climbing the fence to enter. BUT - the cost of contesting that claim had been five thousand pounds in the insurer's legal costs. As a result they increased the premium for next year's event from one hundred and fifty pounds to two thousand pounds. The event died. They couldn't afford the premium on top of all the other costs.

My event died too. I couldn't raise enough finance to pay the insurance. I also had to find the cost of the hall, because the council had withdrawn their sponsorship, afraid that they also might be sued if someone was injured at an event I was organising with their 'support'.

Our local carnival used to have many floats based on flat-bed trucks decorated for the evening. The local companies would lend the truck and driver for the event.

BUT - their truck insurance company would not cover the company for public liability, particularly for anyone falling off (possibly drunk! because all the public houses used flat beds and set up a themed bar on the back). The Highways Agency insisted that the tachographs should be in use which meant that the driver's paid hours for that working week were reduced - losing him and the company money.

We don't have commercial flat bed trucks any more.
 
That's a perfect illustration, Ogg, and a very depressing one. And none of it would have happened if, in cases similar to that woman's one, a judge had simply taken five minutes to say 'You shouldn't have broken in. Your fault. Next!' 'Fell off the back of a truck? Drunk? Your fault. Carry on!'

Lack of personal responsibility is a moral failing not merely because it shows weakness of character, but for precisely this kind of knock-on effect on those who do take responsibility for themselves.
 
Thank you for your kind words and thoughtful reply. I'm not sure I really expected a response - it was more a vast blurt of frustration. But I agree that part of the problem is an ever-growing, ever more connected population, and an issue of trust for which our ancestors, evolved to cope in small kinship communities, simply could not prepare us. But speaking of binary - is there not a third way, as Bill Clinton would have put it? What about using our experience, knowledge and intelligence to make judgement calls about other people and their intentions? Like we used to? To be discriminatory, in the non-pejorative sense?

It strikes me as symbolic that the great Latin word discrimen - the mature ability to distinguish and judge - is now almost entirely seen as something negative. Profiling at airports is seen as racist, so we must treat the sick old Norwegian lady flying out of the country for treatment with precisely as much suspicion as the anxious looking Arab man clutching his Koran. It's absurd, as Riles put it so well on dolf's paedophilia thread, to take equality so far that it becomes meaningless.



Well, I can certainly see that argument. In an effort to get rid of nepotism, subtle corruption, and the wrong sort of discrimination - all laudable efforts, of course - we have got ourselves into a depressing mess. Rather than treat the black man, the gay man, the disabled woman, the poor woman, etc AS WELL as the middle class white man was treated in the 50s, we have settled for a low level tolerance. And isn't the universal approval of that word also sinister in its own way? 'We must be tolerant', goes up the cry. But who wants to be merely tolerated?



I mention Kant because he so loathed the utilitarian principle of treating every situation on its own merits and wanted universal moral rules. It seems to me that we are following his way, and I don't think it works. We should train our public servants (and, indeed, private industry workers too) to be able to make intelligent judgement calls. Except in matters of criminal law, the rules should be seen as guidelines - a helpful framework - not a yes/no flowchart. But then people get upset - 'One rule for him and another for me!' Well, yes. His circumstances are unique, as are yours, and he is unique, as are you. But somehow we never seem to hear that argument made.

I happen to agree with you that what we need to do is destroy the entire mechanism of treating individuals as economic units, and that means, for me, a socialist revolution. But the nanny-state liberal left is as guilty of causing the situation as anyone, and I wanted to hear what a conservative solution might be. I can imagine eyer's libertarian response, which works as a unitary answer to the nanny-state side of things. But libertarianism cannot dictate to business that it wants it to be more discriminatory and more judgemental. It cannot tell a bank to be more flexible in its dealings with customers: at best it might hope that it would feel able to do so once the shackles of regulation are removed. But it cannot ensure so. And in any case, it strikes me as wider than that.

In society as a whole, judgement is bad - 'Don't judge me!'. Discrimination is bad 'We don't discriminate', say large organizations, as if that childish, all must have prizes attitude were something to be proud of. Tolerance is good - in fact, the pinnacle of civic society, it sometimes seems.

What joy there is in this world, where everyone is as good as each other and no one is ever judged, and each of us is tolerated to a precisely mandated, computer generated degree.

Many years ago I wrote a short monograph on discrimination here at Lit. Maybe someone can find it, I'm not going to bother.

The nut of it was that discrimination is a good thing. Choosing the Morel over the Fly Agaric is an act of discrimination eminently to the betterment of ones health. The long form you mentioned having to fill out was a 'form' of discrimination cloaking itself in the mantle of non-discrimination for the very reasons you took the time to outline.

The government mandated non-discrimination edicts, which are discriminatory in and of themselves, permeate society far beyond the civil service sector and reach deep into the bowels of private society. Quotas based on racial/ethnic considerations are assigned. Frivolous law suits are initiated based on those quotas.

Government has interjected itself into the social fabric far beyond it's legitimate functions either by law or by administrative findings. Many of these laws/findings have come about as a result of selected anecdotal stories, stories that while most likely true should not be an excuse for the government to bring its heavy hand to bear.

The regulatory overburden is reaching the point where the back of society is being broken. Those regulations that are not based on the faulty notion of non-discrimination are protectionist in nature. Favoring the entrenched businesses at the expense of those that would like to start a new business. (The child's lemonade stand being closed down due to 'regulations' is a prime example of regulatory protectionism.)

I noticed that someone tried to lay the blame on 'capitalism.' As if those nations steeped in socialism do not suffer from the same maladies. In many cases those socialist societies were even/are worse. The former Soviet Union being an excellent example.

The entire notion of government saving us from others, and ourselves along the way, has to be re-examined. Perhaps the ancient Romans notion of caveat emptor has merit after all. P1's reference to Max Headroom should be a warning sign to us all.

Ishmael
 
That's a perfect illustration, Ogg, and a very depressing one. And none of it would have happened if, in cases similar to that woman's one, a judge had simply taken five minutes to say 'You shouldn't have broken in. Your fault. Next!' 'Fell off the back of a truck? Drunk? Your fault. Carry on!'

Lack of personal responsibility is a moral failing not merely because it shows weakness of character, but for precisely this kind of knock-on effect on those who do take responsibility for themselves.

So, how do we change even that one simple premise. How do we reintroduce that personal responsibility? We see examples of it every day. Societal change is long, slow and difficult. People generally resist change at least when they recognize it. It's easy to find the flaws. The real challenge is finding and executing the solution.
 
Many years ago I wrote a short monograph on discrimination here at Lit. Maybe someone can find it, I'm not going to bother.

The nut of it was that discrimination is a good thing. Choosing the Morel over the Fly Agaric is an act of discrimination eminently to the betterment of ones health. The long form you mentioned having to fill out was a 'form' of discrimination cloaking itself in the mantle of non-discrimination for the very reasons you took the time to outline.

The government mandated non-discrimination edicts, which are discriminatory in and of themselves, permeate society far beyond the civil service sector and reach deep into the bowels of private society. Quotas based on racial/ethnic considerations are assigned. Frivolous law suits are initiated based on those quotas.

Government has interjected itself into the social fabric far beyond it's legitimate functions either by law or by administrative findings. Many of these laws/findings have come about as a result of selected anecdotal stories, stories that while most likely true should not be an excuse for the government to bring its heavy hand to bear.

The regulatory overburden is reaching the point where the back of society is being broken. Those regulations that are not based on the faulty notion of non-discrimination are protectionist in nature. Favoring the entrenched businesses at the expense of those that would like to start a new business. (The child's lemonade stand being closed down due to 'regulations' is a prime example of regulatory protectionism.)

I noticed that someone tried to lay the blame on 'capitalism.' As if those nations steeped in socialism do not suffer from the same maladies. In many cases those socialist societies were even/are worse. The former Soviet Union being an excellent example.

The entire notion of government saving us from others, and ourselves along the way, has to be re-examined. Perhaps the ancient Romans notion of caveat emptor has merit after all. P1's reference to Max Headroom should be a warning sign to us all.

Ishmael

All the notions of government 'saving us from others, and ourselves along the way' (nicely put, by the way!) are absurd, short termist sticking plaster solutions for a more fundamental problem, which is vast disparities of power and influence between individual people and, worse (since that can at least in some cases be down to the drive and brilliance of the individual) the passing on of that power and influence, of which money is a common marker, to the next generation and beyond, where they may have done nothing whatsoever to earn that privileged position. So we agree that they should be got rid of. But the idea that such a bonfire of the regulations will be a solution is too simplistic, because we are still going to be back to the early nineteenth century, with all its problems. Besides, as I said above, your deregulatory, small government solution works only for part of the problem:

'I can imagine eyer's libertarian response, which works as a unitary answer to the nanny-state side of things. But libertarianism cannot dictate to business that it wants it to be more discriminatory and more judgemental. It cannot tell a bank to be more flexible in its dealings with customers: at best it might hope that it would feel able to do so once the shackles of regulation are removed. But it cannot ensure so. And in any case, it strikes me as wider than that.

In society as a whole, judgement is bad - 'Don't judge me!'. Discrimination is bad 'We don't discriminate', say large organizations, as if that childish, all must have prizes attitude were something to be proud of. Tolerance is good - in fact, the pinnacle of civic society, it sometimes seems.'
 
So, how do we change even that one simple premise. How do we reintroduce that personal responsibility? We see examples of it every day. Societal change is long, slow and difficult. People generally resist change at least when they recognize it. It's easy to find the flaws. The real challenge is finding and executing the solution.

It doesn't have to be. Soviet Russia went from an agrarian economy to the second biggest industrialised economy in the world in little more than a generation. Look at China over the last thirty years. Both achieved without the disruption of democracy. We have to stop paying so much attention to people: I've met people, and they're almost all idiots who don't know what's best for them.

The solution in this specific instance would be simply to ban advertising for lawyers, ban no win no fee cases, ban so-called punitive damages so that there is an incentive to do more than simply seeking redress, and have a massive advertising campaign re-introducing the idea of 'accidents', and 'being careful'. Remember those concepts? :)
 
DesEsseintes said:
I mention Kant because he so loathed the utilitarian principle of treating every situation on its own merits and wanted universal moral rules. It seems to me that we are following his way, and I don't think it works. We should train our public servants (and, indeed, private industry workers too) to be able to make intelligent judgement calls. Except in matters of criminal law, the rules should be seen as guidelines - a helpful framework - not a yes/no flowchart. But then people get upset - 'One rule for him and another for me!' Well, yes. His circumstances are unique, as are yours, and he is unique, as are you. But somehow we never seem to hear that argument made.

This seeming contradiction between universal application of rules and consequences in the name of 'fairness' and allowing for nuance in each situation was something I thought a lot about when I was a teacher. I think anyone who has spent an appreciable amount of time leading a classroom would agree that a one-size-fits-all approach will rarely be successful; different kids respond differently, and that has to be taken into account to reach your ultimate goals of leading thriving, happy students who are engaged in learning and motivated to succeed. But one of the surest ways to lose a kid is for them to get it in their head that you are being unfair towards them relative to the other students. There is a balance that can and should be struck, and when done well it works really well. But it's not always easy to do.

Thanks for prompting some reflection this morning, Des.
 
I read the OP, found it interesting, stopped to think on it, then discovered I was late for work.

Des, please (in order to avoid suit) send $128.75 to: kbate, virginia USA.

Your liability is clear.
 
I read the OP, found it interesting, stopped to think on it, then discovered I was late for work.

Des, please (in order to avoid suit) send $128.75 to: kbate, virginia USA.

Your liability is clear.

The address of a Queen! Like Number One, London, which is a real place. I shall be happy to send the money, provided you can help me release funds from my savings account. A mere bagatelle of £500, too.
 
All the notions of government 'saving us from others, and ourselves along the way' (nicely put, by the way!) are absurd, short termist sticking plaster solutions for a more fundamental problem, which is vast disparities of power and influence between individual people and, worse (since that can at least in some cases be down to the drive and brilliance of the individual) the passing on of that power and influence, of which money is a common marker, to the next generation and beyond, where they may have done nothing whatsoever to earn that privileged position. So we agree that they should be got rid of. But the idea that such a bonfire of the regulations will be a solution is too simplistic, because we are still going to be back to the early nineteenth century, with all its problems. Besides, as I said above, your deregulatory, small government solution works only for part of the problem:

'I can imagine eyer's libertarian response, which works as a unitary answer to the nanny-state side of things. But libertarianism cannot dictate to business that it wants it to be more discriminatory and more judgemental. It cannot tell a bank to be more flexible in its dealings with customers: at best it might hope that it would feel able to do so once the shackles of regulation are removed. But it cannot ensure so. And in any case, it strikes me as wider than that.

In society as a whole, judgement is bad - 'Don't judge me!'. Discrimination is bad 'We don't discriminate', say large organizations, as if that childish, all must have prizes attitude were something to be proud of. Tolerance is good - in fact, the pinnacle of civic society, it sometimes seems.'

That statement is quite true, but that implies that there is an equitable solution to all of the problems. My position is that there is no solutions that will not bring with it inequities of their own. You spoke of the 'third way.' Perhaps that way is to seriously examine those regulations, eliminate as many as possible, and gird ourselves to the fact that certain inequities will still exist and that we'll just have to live with them.

The die hard socialist cleaves to the notion that "all men are created equal." And while from the religious point of view that may indeed be true, the fact remains that not everyone comes equipped with the same tools. Then they compound that error of oversight by assuming that everyone wants the same thing and the metric is measured by net worth. It has always amazed me how the human can rise above, and thrive, in the face of adversity when allowed, but how many that have reached the status of 'the wealthy' handle their assets poorly and are soon relieved of their wealth. The socialist, being the impatient sort that they tend to be, wants to relieve the wealthy of their assets 'right now', most never realizing that they are merely engaging in a avaricious tantrum that will not benefit them in the least, or understanding that time and the poor decisions of the wealthy will do just as good a job of redistributing the wealth without the government taking a cut as the middleman. Here in the US out of every dollar earmarked for welfare only 27 cents ever reached the the needy, the balance, 73 cents, is swallowed up by the various bureaucracies created to 'oversee' the distribution. The entire effort has become nothing but a government jobs program.

Much of the inequity we see around us is as a result of poor personal decisions. And the only way that government can provide a solution to that particular problem is to remove those decisions from the individual. And are we now to believe that government is any better at decision making? A quick inventory of that span of history seems to indicate that government is no better at decision making than the individual, the major difference between the two is the number of lives destroyed by the decisions made. The individual may destroy their own lives along with a small circle around them whereas government decisions can, and have, destroyed the lives of millions.

"A government drunk on it's own power no longer serves the people, only itself." - Ishmael.

As an informal research project I urge you to do an inventory on how many bureaucrats, at all levels, are employed, and at what cost, to 'police' these inequities. The results may surprise you.

"Government is not reason, it is not eloquence — it is force. Like fire it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master; never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action." - Attributed to G. Washington.

You Europeans have a long and rich history of looking to strong governments prone to meddle in the affairs of the individual at every level and perhaps you should be excused your penchant for doing so. We Americans have no such excuse.

Ishmael
 
I had my own business placing people mainly with private employers for more than 30 years. The form filling application is worse than useless. A short cv. plus covering letter is plenty. Gaps are good - because they invite questions.

In interview most experienced people can pick a misfit for a job in the first 30 seconds - picking the best fit takes a bit more effort. Your experience is pretty much the norm in the public service and sometimes in large corporates.

My first employer in Australia many years ago taught me a valuable lesson. He was an entrepreneur who took over many companies. His first move with every single new company was to identify and sack the entire HR department. He argued that managers are supposed to manage and the most important thing they manage is people. Therefore each manager had to select, develop, and take responsibility for his own team.

Every bit of the process you described is designed to remove responsibility and to negate the value of judgement. The attack on responsibility and judgement has spawned vast bureaucratic empires which it seems no one, in government in particular is prepared to fix.
 
I was born with disabilities yet I've never, in 66 years, qualified for any exemption from the status quo, and many times I was compelled to struggle for lawful entitlements, Veterans benefits come to mind. Or, most often, harassed by government for actions that are legal or not subject to law or tort, my garden comes to mind.

I recall two actions involving government. In the first action the issue concerned the location of a house adjacent to an intersection, except there was no intersection, government staff construed a curve to be an intersection. Curves aren't intersections. Intersections require two distinct roadways to intersect or cross. In the second action I applied for a zoning change to enlarge an auto parts junk yard. The zoning board rejected my application because of the fence going around the property. But there were no fence laws or standards at that time. Their objection was irrelevant.

So I conclude much of government is simple rent-seeking to benefit lawyers and their collateral associates.
 
Flying an ultra-light onto the White House lawn may be an indication that the Emperor has no clothes.

Or at least, there are some important holes in his garb that may yet be exploited by the careful, the intelligent, and the wise.

I am not trying to be glib about it - I think there are holes opening up that will not be filled, and although, indeed, there was a high point in the tyranny of bureaucracy and the mindless parasites that peopled it, there is a slope down which things are now sliding and they will continue to slide and to speed up in their slide into oblivion. In spite of the NSA and every other thing. And quite regardless of the more obvious opponents to this wonderful, well-managed, QE-financed and slick, modern 'system.' (I note BoyNextDoor called capitalism a 'system...' His view of capitalism, at least).
 
The solution in this specific instance would be simply to ban advertising for lawyers, ban no win no fee cases, ban so-called punitive damages so that there is an incentive to do more than simply seeking redress, and have a massive advertising campaign re-introducing the idea of 'accidents', and 'being careful'. Remember those concepts? :)
Banning no-win, no-fee cases means that justice is only for the rich, and the rich will exploit the poor even more than now, as the poor will have no affordable legal recourse. Instead of setting the barrier too high for most people to address grievances in a court, a better approach, I think, is to hold the attorneys to higher standards. Frivolous lawsuits - as determined as a matter of law by the judge - should result in penalties against the lawyers, not the clients. Of course, currently judges are reticent to apply the laws and codes of conduct that we currently have in place to assure just this, as they are elected and need the attorneys' political donations to stay in office. And round and round we go.
 
Banning no-win, no-fee cases means that justice is only for the rich, and the rich will exploit the poor even more than now, as the poor will have no affordable legal recourse. Instead of setting the barrier too high for most people to address grievances in a court, a better approach, I think, is to hold the attorneys to higher standards. Frivolous lawsuits - as determined as a matter of law by the judge - should result in penalties against the lawyers, not the clients. Of course, currently judges are reticent to apply the laws and codes of conduct that we currently have in place to assure just this, as they are elected and need the attorneys' political donations to stay in office. And round and round we go.

Ooh, I like this one. And it goes well with my other favorite legal idea, holding prosecutors responsible for deliberately covering up exculpatory information.
 
That was the longest thing I've ever read in my life. So long, in fact, that I only read a small portion of it.

But I would like to comment on the specific scenario about your mate who couldn't get a 500 quid loan when he had every means of paying it back. This is such an absurdity to me. I find it sadly hysterical that these financial institutions use "credit scores" as a means for proving a person's willingness or ability to pay back loans. Their algorithm is that if you have debt, you can pay back debt. When, in the instance of your friend, he lived responsibly and without debt, yet he is punished for it.

My wife works in the mortgage industry. This notion of equality in lending is such complete and utter horse shit. Before the real estate bust, lenders and the government were doing everything they could to get lower income people into their own homes. You know, to be fair! So they lowered the criteria for applicants. They offer government down payment assistance and all that jazz. And in the end, these people with low income get placed into homes they cannot afford. My, oh my! What a good deed we've done.

I remember a specific instance of a government assistance program here where a woman was purchasing a $100k home for around $60k, due to several government assistance programs. Well, she had to come up with her portion of the closing costs, which was $267. She could not do that. After being given $40k in financial assistance, she was required $267 of her own money to be invested. $267. And she couldn't do it. Should that person own that home? Probably not. But, we have to treat everyone equally, right? We have to make sure that everyone owns a home, as the Bill of Rights so clearly states. :rolleyes:

/rant
 
, holding prosecutors responsible for deliberately covering up exculpatory information.

Dunno about the US, but that's a criminal offence over here: conspiracy to pervert the course of justice.
 
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