Why Make Your Protagonists Villains?

[RPGer]

When I first started reading on this site I think I was lucky... In addition to the usual porn movie scripts with people happily jumping in bed in various combos, I found authors like Dreamcloud, ScattySue, and Salish whose protagonists were good guys.
Lately I have hit a whole series of stories whose protagonists are self centered jerks. They react with anger (and sometimes violence) to anything that doesn't go their way, they stalk the objects of their desire rather than court them, and when somehow they get the girl they act callously and sometimes cruelly. The stories have me feeling angry and sometimes sick. These are not BDSM stories.
What really boggles my mind is that the authors seem to think they have created characters we should sympathize with and want to get the girl! I have even been running into this type of character in the Romance category. Please tell me what is going on. I am about to give up on this site.

 

[LesLumens]

50 Shades of Grey made a bunch of money, for one thing. Some people who have been here for a while are probably emulating it, as are newbies who were only exposed to written sex by the books and inspired to try their hand.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

When I first started reading on this site I think I was lucky... In addition to the usual porn movie scripts with people happily jumping in bed in various combos, I found authors like Dreamcloud, ScattySue, and Salish whose protagonists were good guys.
Lately I have hit a whole series of stories whose protagonists are self centered jerks. They react with anger (and sometimes violence) to anything that doesn't go their way, they stalk the objects of their desire rather than court them, and when somehow they get the girl they act callously and sometimes cruelly. The stories have me feeling angry and sometimes sick. These are not BDSM stories.
What really boggles my mind is that the authors seem to think they have created characters we should sympathize with and want to get the girl! I have even been running into this type of character in the Romance category. Please tell me what is going on. I am about to give up on this site.

So long as my characters aren't sissies like you life is tolerable.

 

[Desiremakesmeweak]

If you leave out Johnson's noir or let's say, robust or hardboiled crime thriller fiction style - which is a pretty legitimate style of writing you'd have to say - then what is probably being referred to is the inept seduction ideas and just plain vacuous way of relating to women or intimate partners that comes out in some of the stories.

Noir and hardboiled stuff is not necessarily gauche - whereas, yep, there is a lot of writing around today, not just hereabouts but everywhere, that is pretty stupid.

 

[Everyday_Man]

So long as my characters aren't sissies like you life is tolerable.

This is so surprisingly mean I can't stop laughing.

 

[allamagione]

Simple answer, honey pie. That turns some of us on. CRAZY, I KNOW.

 

[sr71plt]

Another simple answer: Not all writers write simple stories all of the time. Variety and a bit of reality creep in there occasionally in the creative process and some writers don't write just for the one-dimensional reader (which I think a reader demanding to either like or identify with the protagonist qualifies as).

In a story I just drafted, the one readers will at least initially think is the protagonist is as self-centered and "taking" as they get, but he's not necessarily who I think of as the protagonist of the story.

 

[lovecraft68]

In my more serious stories I create characters that are unlikeable then try to get the readers to sympathize with them

But in other areas I leave the Christian gray type characters alone that is unless I plan on killing them in nasty ways.

I have seen too much of that types handiwork in resl life to ever want to encourage fantasies of them.

But as am says above many do like the fantasy.

I just say read what you like and skip what you don't

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Another simple answer: Not all writers write simple stories all of the time. Variety and a bit of reality creep in there occasionally in the creative process and some writers don't write just for the one-dimensional reader (which I think a reader demanding to either like or identify with the protagonist qualifies as).

In a story I just drafted, the one readers will at least initially think is the protagonist is as self-centered and "taking" as they get, but he's not necessarily who I think of as the protagonist of the story.

^^^^^ITs his autobiography

 

[sr71plt]

Obviously I've gotten to JBJ when every third post by him inappropriately is about me. Good. It means that he is really pissed that I've got his goat and won't give it back.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Obviously I've gotten to JBJ when every third post by him inappropriately is about me. Good. It means that he is really pissed that I've got his goat and won't give it back.

I hadda goat as a child, they shit a lot and have bad tempers, youre welcome to him.

 

[TamLin01]

Without a tangible example we can only speculate. But in general, don't make the mistake of thinking that because a character is the protagonist that readers are necessarily meant to sympathize with him/her or that the writer endorses that character's point of view or actions. Sometimes stories are just about bad people.

 

[RPGer]

Thx for your POVs

I understand better now.
JJs answer was kind of the one I was expecting.
For those who are turned on, I can't relate but I can understand. For the authors who want more complex, that's cool too. I just wish there was a category for this stuff so that I could avoid it without getting in too deep.
For the person who says why do you need to identify? I don't understand how people can read a well written story and NOT identify.
Again, thank you all.

 

[sr71plt]

I don't understand how people can read a well written story and NOT identify.

Sorry, but that's where I see a reader lacking in dimension (and in the ability to fully enjoy literature). I don't think the answer is for writers to dumb themselves down to meet the lowest common denominator--or to park their work in some roped off corner.

 

[RPGer]

Identifying

I actually think this deserves a separate thread. To respond, though, how can you feel happy when the guy gets the girl unless you are into them? Perhaps a better example would be feeling sad when tragedy hits a character. If you don't care about them, then how is it different than reading in a paper of a random death?

 

[CyranoJ]

"Unlikeable" anti-hero protagonists are often really surrogates for some form of power-fantasy.

Someone above mentioned Christian Gray from the 50 Shades books; he's basically a crude, low-rent example of the kind of tortured, brooding, violent anti-hero that's been stalking the pages of fantasy since at least the days of Wuthering Heights. His being "unlikeable" and outsider is the point, the source of his appeal (some stories are fantasies about finding the core of humanity in such a character, others about simply finding pleasure in submission, others about a mixture of the two).

The anti-hero as written by men is more often straight-ahead wish fulfilment (cf. every male protagonist ever written by Frank Miller). Or the fulfilment of wishes they can't consciously incorporate into a truly "heroic" character.

 

[lovecraft68]

"Unlikeable" anti-hero protagonists are often really surrogates for some form of power-fantasy.

Someone above mentioned Christian Gray from the 50 Shades books; he's basically a crude, low-rent example of the kind of tortured, brooding, violent anti-hero that's been stalking the pages of fantasy since at least the days of Wuthering Heights. His being "unlikeable" and outsider is the point, the source of his appeal (some stories are fantasies about finding the core of humanity in such a character, others about simply finding pleasure in submission, others about a mixture of the two).

The anti-hero as written by men is more often straight-ahead wish fulfilment (cf. every male protagonist ever written by Frank Miller). Or the fulfilment of wishes they can't consciously incorporate into a truly "heroic" character.

Oh, bringing up Miller! I knew i liked you Good point, Miller writes classic male fantasy, all his men are dark brooding and kick ass. He reinvented the stale Daredevil and then Batman by doing that. Never mind Sin City...Miller is the Tarantino of comics.

I like anti-hero types, but again I don't add abuse towards women as one of their features. MY spin is giving them the type of abusive background that would make them loath that type.

When you mention Gray being nothing more than the latest incarnation of a cliched plot device you're right. The problem with him is the writer either did not have the skill to ultimately make him somewhat redeemable for the HEA ending, or she chose to pretty much leave him a piece of crap and the woman willing to accept that.

But that itself is far older than shades and that character is widely used in BDSM for some annoying reason, I think its because most who write those stories really don't grasp what that lifestyle is about as in its about a lot more than "me dom, you sub, me take you"

 

[RPGer]

Complex Characters

This is, I think, part of this discussion. I have not read any of your stories, yet, so I don't say this applies to your characters...
Most of the bad people protagonists have struck me as very simple characters... two year olds who never grew up. They come down to "Me want! Me Take!" If they are denied they get angry, sometimes with thoughts like, " That cunt was leading me on! I'll fix her good!". Note that leading on means existing. If the character is smart he will scheme, but it really all comes down to "Me want. Me Take" or some slight variant.
Good guys often end up just as one dimensional... "Isn't she beautiful? Wow, she likes me! I am so happy!" On the other hand, the story often has complications (especially in Lesbian or Incest stories) where the good guy has to consider his happiness vs that of his crush. Or the risks of coming out. Love is often defined as caring more for the happiness of the other than yourself. This can end up creating hard and sometimes heartbreaking decisions for a good guy that seem a lot more involved than just taking what you want.
Please respond, as I am interested in your opinion.

 

[sr71plt]

I actually think this deserves a separate thread. To respond, though, how can you feel happy when the guy gets the girl unless you are into them? Perhaps a better example would be feeling sad when tragedy hits a character. If you don't care about them, then how is it different than reading in a paper of a random death?

From a reader of literature standpoint, if it's written well, I'd probably smile and applaud a writing job well done. Did you think that Shirley Jackson's protag in "The Lottery" had a happy ending? Really, you brought this up. You're just going to have to accept that I think you are a shallow reader and aren't the sort of person I, at least, am writing my stories for. I'm after a more discerning audience than that and am not going to pay a bit of attention to what you have posted to give what you think the limits of creative expression should be.

 

[lovecraft68]

From a reader of literature standpoint, if it's written well, I'd probably smile and applaud a writing job well done. Did you think that Shirley Jackson's protag in "The Lottery" had a happy ending? Really, you brought this up. You're just going to have to accept that I think you are a shallow reader and aren't the sort of person I, at least, am writing my stories for. I'm after a more discerning audience than that and am not going to pay a bit of attention to what you have posted to give what you think the limits of creative expression should be.

But yet you keep replying to him and telling him how "dumb and shallow" he is.

"Is discerning reader" your latest claim for the low reads and views on your stories?

If you think the guys is "beneath" you-meaning he is with everyone else here-then leave the thread...

But of course...you won't, you can't get any attention that way.

 

[lovecraft68]

This is, I think, part of this discussion. I have not read any of your stories, yet, so I don't say this applies to your characters...
Most of the bad people protagonists have struck me as very simple characters... two year olds who never grew up. They come down to "Me want! Me Take!" If they are denied they get angry, sometimes with thoughts like, " That cunt was leading me on! I'll fix her good!". Note that leading on means existing. If the character is smart he will scheme, but it really all comes down to "Me want. Me Take" or some slight variant.
Good guys often end up just as one dimensional... "Isn't she beautiful? Wow, she likes me! I am so happy!" On the other hand, the story often has complications (especially in Lesbian or Incest stories) where the good guy has to consider his happiness vs that of his crush. Or the risks of coming out. Love is often defined as caring more for the happiness of the other than yourself. This can end up creating hard and sometimes heartbreaking decisions for a good guy that seem a lot more involved than just taking what you want.
Please respond, as I am interested in your opinion.

Out of curiosity where are you reading? Sounds like the non con or BDSM sections. If you wnat more likable less abusive protags check out romance or mature or some of the more "fun" categories.

 

[TamLin01]

I don't understand how people can read a well written story and NOT identify.

You can identify with a character without liking or approving of a chracter. If you watch or read "Carrie," fore example, it's very easy to identify with how persecuted and marginalized the main character is, because who hasn't felt sometimes that the world is against them, or felt compassion for people who are abused?

...then she goes and kills everyone, which is probably less easy to identify with. But that doesn't mean readers can't still feel some degree of kinship with everything that happened to her before, because killers are people too, and they can have the same human experiences as the rest of us.

 

[sr71plt]

And you keep trying to make something out of nothing about it with me, Hatecraft. Just an obsessed crazy stalker trying to shut the thread down.

I haven't initiated any discussion. I posted to what the OP set forth and then to a direct response to me.

Go look for a sister to torture and fuck. That's a greater obsession for you than I am.

 

[RPGer]

To Lovecraft

I am interested in your response about BDSM. I confess to the same prejudice as you indicated, with the added "I hurt sub!". I read a couple of the stories and that seems to be what they came down to. My first glimpse that it might be something else was FeatherWatt's "Mittens". I would be interested in hearing more.

Also I agree with you that the tortured good guy ("Coming to Grips") is much more interesting than the tortured bad guy.

 

[lovecraft68]

I am interested in your response about BDSM. I confess to the same prejudice as you indicated, with the added "I hurt sub!". I read a couple of the stories and that seems to be what they came down to. My first glimpse that it might be something else was FeatherWatt's "Mittens". I would be interested in hearing more.

Also I agree with you that the tortured good guy ("Coming to Grips") is much more interesting than the tortured bad guy.

BDSM is a mixed bag, there's great stuff, but also a lot of poorly masked rape porn, that honestly would get better ratings if placed in non con, so whether the author does not want the stigma of that category or they equate BDSM with rape...who knows, but the category is a mind field.

I'm a fan of tortured bad guy....but the type with a flawed nobility who'll do the right thing, possibly for the wrong reasons... a bad guy.

If you want to have a conversation about this stuff turn your PM's on and message me. I don't want to go on at length here....Cause you know, I'm a shallow, dumb less discerning reader/author myself