New (to Literotica) Writer

[ADiabolicalDuck]

While I have been active on other sites for a while now I only got my first story up on this site earlier this week. This thread will at least start by focusing on that story (I like the convenience of having a single thread for all my stories but I'm not sure that is kosher) using the comments placed on it to seed the conversation.

Title: Three Girls (link)
Author: A Diabolical Duck
Genre: BDSM for now, it's queued to be moved to Non-Con soon.
Summary: Three friends get kidnapped and broken.
Notes: This story was written for frankiepig (who supplied the basic plot).
Score: 3.64 (44 votes)

I know the girls are restrained, but given that the protagonists were kidnapped and forced into the scenario, I think this would be a better fit in noncon. Even though one of them turns out to be a willing participant, the other two are not, including the primary POV character. Otherwise, a pretty well-crafted story. The twist at the end was a surprise for me!

This might be better in nonconcent or even horror.

Nice start, great twist at the end there. Look forward to see where you take it.

Noncon, Duckie. Placement matters. Otherwise well done.
1* as BDSM and 5* as noncon

It's nonconsent/ reluctance.

The consensus is it's good (especially the 'twist' ending) but in the wrong category which I can see which is why I'm having it moved. There is one outlier though:

This story is B.S. It's a revenge scenario, and unrealistic

I'm not sure how to respond to that. It can't be that unrealistic give that all the devices mentioned/used are for sale.

 

[PennLady]

There is one outlier though:I'm not sure how to respond to that. It can't be that unrealistic give that all the devices mentioned/used are for sale.

I haven't read your stories -- I don't care for non-con for the most part -- but perhaps they were referring to the characters' behaviors, as opposed to any devices?

 

[Hypoxia]

Notes: This story was written by frankiepig (who supplied the basic plot).

I'm confused. Who is the author, you or frankiepig? Are you claiming frankiepig's story as your own? Are you frankiepig?

 

[ADiabolicalDuck]

I'm confused. Who is the author, you or frankiepig? Are you claiming frankiepig's story as your own? Are you frankiepig?

I was going to be somewhat snarky then I realized there was a 'typo' in my first post (I had changed my mind as to how to phrase the note the wrong word survived the rewrite, it should be better now).

To be clear the story was written for frankiepig who came to me with the basic elements of the plot (basically the summary above and a brief physical description of the title 'girls'). I am responsible for turning that into a story, including the 'twist' everyone seems to like, and actually writing it.

I haven't read your stories -- I don't care for non-con for the most part -- but perhaps they were referring to the characters' behaviors [as being unrealistic], as opposed to any devices?

It's possible that's what they meant, I'd think they were wrong, but without any specifics there's no know their intent or for me to respond. This maybe horrible to say but I don't like non-con which why the request for followups (here and elsewhere) probably won't get any traction. I did write another piece, following one of the three girls, but I struggled with it and disliked the results so much I'm not I'll bother posting it here.

 

[robertreams]

Am I the only one who noticed that the story starts with a sentence that is not a sentence. It was like starting a story with a punch in the nose. The first thing I did was search for a verb.
after that, reading the first paragraph was like slogging through thick mud to find a path to the story.

A quick, sharp blow to Elizabeth's cheek brought her around, left her jaw aching. Her eyes opened to a light( so overwhelming she had to blink a few times before turning away. Above, there were only mirrors angled to let her see herself and her two friends fully dressed, all strapped to metal tables. (You had her strapped to a table on either side of herself!)

 

[sr71plt]

Am I the only one who noticed that the story starts with a sentence that is not a sentence.

Which is one of the techniques in commercial fiction that is fine--as long as it serves the purpose of drawing the reader in.

That said, "brought" would be better than "bringing" in this instance, especially since the punctuation is off and could throw a knowing reader off the rails. If the author really wants to use "bringing," there should be a comma in front of the "bringing" gerund clause.

 

[robertreams]

Bringing or brought, comma or nought, brought me up short as it did you, because the gerund clause, when set off by a comma, should lead me to a verb and doesn't. If you insert the comma you have only the gerund clause and that is what threw me "off the rails".

 

[lovecraft68]

I sucked it up and took a look. It shouldn't be moved to non con it should be reported and banned for flat out rape.

Two of the three did not "come around" to wanting it.

One person commented it should be in horror...

The fact that one victim did comes around, but two did not shows the pure intent of the story is rape and abuse.

But I don't blame people for putting this material here. The site has a non consent section why would they think there is not supposed to be rape stories here?

And on a more annoying note...another person with no clue of what BDSM is. A woman is bound and sexually assaulted must be BDSM

I think the comments left by other readers balc that last statement fairly well.

If you don't know something about a fetish/lifestyle, don't write in that category. It will be better for you because your score and feedback will be better in the proper category.

 

[lovecraft68]

A quick, sharp blow to Elizabeth's cheek brought her around, left her jaw aching. Her eyes opened to a light( so overwhelming she had to blink a few times before turning away. Above, there were only mirrors angled to let her see herself and her two friends fully dressed, all strapped to metal tables. (You had her strapped to a table on either side of herself!)

This sentence alone should have gotten it banned....or do women-or men-enjoy being punched?

 

[sr71plt]

And on a more annoying note...another person with no clue of what BDSM is. A woman is bound and sexually assaulted must be BDSM

Well, of course it's annoying to you Star Trekie clubbists who want to establish your set of rules for BDSM and to be the arbiters of those "rules," but the fact is that the acts are defined by what they are, not by your club rules. "A woman is bound." That's the B of BDSM and it's the B without or without your rules. The woman is "assaulted." That's the S from the perspective of the assaulter (and it could be the M if the woman wants to be assaulted). It's BDSM by the act, not by you clubbist rule makers.

It doesn't even have to be done "correctly."

 

[lovecraft68]

Well, of course it's annoying to you Star Trekie clubbists who want to establish your set of rules for BDSM and to be the arbiters of those "rules," but the fact is that the acts are defined by what they are, not by your club rules. "A woman is bound." That's the B of BDSM and it's the B without or without your rules. The woman is "assaulted." That's the S from the perspective of the assaulter (and it could be the M if the woman wants to be assaulted). It's BDSM by the act, not by you clubbist rule makers.

It doesn't even have to be done "correctly."

There are three basic rules in BDSM Safe, Sane, Consensual....

Now two of those three rules are soft in the sense that what is safe/sane to you and your limits may not be the same as safe/sane to me. Every person has their own limits within those two rules.

But the one hard unflinching nonnegotiable rule is

Consent.

This was not consent it was rape. If that's what the author chooses to write its their prerogative, but they put it in the wrong category because there was no consent.

Kinks, fetishes, limits....all up for debate in BDSM all a matter of style or taste

But no consent does mean its not BDSM. The people calling that out in the comments aren't wrong.

To go further....seeing the girls were kidnapped takes away the BDSM premise as well. Subs are willing participants, not snatched off the street to be brutalized. Or do you think that sick fuck In Cleveland, Castro was a BDSM master/ Dom

Consent in BDSM is not debatable and if you think it is then you prove you know nothing of the lifestyle in question.

 

[sr71plt]

There are three basic rules in BDSM Safe, Sane, Consensual....

Now two of those three rules are soft in the sense that what is safe/sane to you and your limits may not be the same as safe/sane to me. Every person has their own limits within those two rules.

Bullshit. There are no rules. They are defined by the act they are. They don't have to be done correctly either.

No one writing in the Lit. BDSM category needs to feel constrained by the "rules" of some dress-up role players who want to try to assert that they are the arbiters of what being tied up or dominated can be called and what they can't. Bondage, domination, sadism, and masochism existed as defined acts a long time before these silly clubs came along.

You can choose to vote down stories here because they don't follow your rules, of course, but you are being asshats when you do so.

 

[sr71plt]

Guess I'm going to have to drop more freewheeling BDSM stories into the BDSM category here just to show that Lit. doesn't recognize the validity of the kiddie club "rules" either.

 

[ADiabolicalDuck]

I'm going to ignore most of the debate for, as I said in the OP, I agree it belongs in Non-Con (if for no other reason than that clear genre divisions, if stuck to, help the reader find stories they might enjoy) and have requested that it gets moved but that takes a few days. I will say that I'd change the second sentence (everyone seems to be forgetting that the first sentence was 'It started with a slap') to 'brought/left' rather than the current 'bringing/leaving' if I was going to do a rewrite but I don't I like this story enough to do that. There is one other thing I want to comment on though:

This sentence alone should have gotten it banned....or do women-or men-enjoy being punched?

Yes some do, it's called masochism enjoyment or pleasure from receiving pain. There are various degrees of this and being punched does fall on that spectrum which isn't entirely relevant since what you were talking about was a slap (as was made clear in the sentence that everyone seems to forget exists).

 

[lovecraft68]

I'm going to ignore most of the debate for, as I said in the OP, I agree it belongs in Non-Con (if for no other reason than that clear genre divisions, if stuck to, help the reader find stories they might enjoy) and have requested that it gets moved but that takes a few days. I will say that I'd change the second sentence (everyone seems to be forgetting that the first sentence was 'It started with a slap') to 'brought/left' rather than the current 'bringing/leaving' if I was going to do a rewrite but I don't I like this story enough to do that. There is one other thing I want to comment on though:Yes some do, it's called masochism enjoyment or pleasure from receiving pain. There are various degrees of this and being punched does fall on that spectrum which isn't entirely relevant since what you were talking about was a slap (as was made clear in the sentence that everyone seems to forget exists).

Please....

If I said to you...."Know what turns me on? I like to be slapped. Go ahead, baby, slap me." And you slap me? That's masochism on my part.

If you walk up to me, kidnap me and slap me to wake me up....that's called assault

Oh and one more thing....a slap is delivered to the cheek, especially when trying to wake someone up and the sensation is a sharp stinging one and some heat to the cheek if you want to be really descriptive....

You said her jaw ached....sounds more like the slap in your mind was a pretty damn hard blow and directly to the mouth.... I write a lot of fight scenes....I'm not fooled by what you're trying to cover up.

But back to BDSM: a slap in the face or choking or....whatever during the course of a "session" encounter or whatever is part of things for some people that's why safe and sane are interchangeable.

But again consent is involved waking someone up(after kidnapping them) and slapping them in the face is not erotic or is it BDSM.

Let's put it this way....who is in control in a BDSM relationship Top or bottom?

You answer top, you lose.

Know why? because the top will only dole out what has already been predetermined is acceptable by the sub (male or female doesn't matter) there are rules set between the top and sub and what they are is up to them. A sub says Yes I am into being hit/slapped....fine....but if that is never discussed? No decent dom would ever just slap their sub

And Rape Play is part of BDSM as well....as in play as in you know your "rapist" as in they are not going to hurt you, its a power game.

And kidnapping someone is not BDSM....and getting woke up by being struck is not either....you are dealing with a straight up non con scenario, a common one.

Look, you write what you want, but my point is you are in the wrong category and almost all your comments are telling you that. Its not just me. And you're getting torched over there so as I said you put it in on con then you are getting the story in front of the people who like that material.

And you know people are right because you said it is being moved to non con....so why sit here and argue?

 

[ADiabolicalDuck]

And you know people are right because you said it is being moved to non con....so why sit here and argue?

I basically started out by saying I agree it is in the wrong category and was having it moved; how is saying 'I agree' arguing? Further I came back and said I agreed that I should do a rewrite and at least change the tense of some verbs and I would do so if I gave a lick about the story. Which is again not arguing, it's agreeing.

You seemed to have taken issue with my directing answering your question (that yes there are people who like being punched) but at no point did I say that made my story BDSM. You could maybe say that my use of the word masochism implied that but only if you ignore the context the thread as a whole where I repeated said that the story wasn't.

I should have waited until the story got moved before starting this thread so that people wouldn't be wasting their time trying to convince me of something I already believe.


Now to change the topic slightly this story is very atypical for me but I choose to use it as my test balloon for this site because it works as a stand alone. In the three or so days it's been up I've received more feedback here (meaning literotica as a whole) than all other sites combined but the quality is less than I would wish. Repetition of the same message isn't that helpful; studies have shown that after a certain point hearing a message (you don't agree with) repeated makes you less likely to change your opinion. So if the first couple of people hadn't convinced me to move the story comments four and five would have made me dig in my heels. To be clear I'm glad I got as many comments as I did but if you see two people have beat you to the punch don't just pile on as that's not helpful.

 

[AwkwardMD]

Safe, Sane, and Consensual are the guidelines for SSC. Bondage/Discipline, Dominance/Submission, Sadism/Masochism. Those are the defining qualities for BDSM. If you want an SSC section, petition Laurel. Nerfing an entire genre of erotica helps no one.

As a writer who has had more than half of my BDSM stories re-categorized behind my back, I can't agree more with sr71plt.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Safe, Sane, and Consensual are the guidelines for SSC. Bondage/Discipline, Dominance/Submission, Sadism/Masochism. Those are the defining qualities for BDSM.

That's what the acronym stands for, but that's not quite the same thing; like many other things in the English language, "BDSM" is a compound that has connotations not contained in its individual parts. (Painting your house green doesn't make it a greenhouse; French fries aren't actually French; IBM sell products that aren't "machines", and they don't sell executive jets even though those are machines used for international business; etc etc.)

The six words you've listed are certainly some of the defining qualities of BDSM, but the element of "consent" is also acknowledged by just about anybody familiar with the subject. ("Safe, Sane, and Consensual" is not universally accepted, but the alternatives - things like RACK and 4C - also include "consent".)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDSM

"This article is about consensual sexual behaviour. For the medical condition involving non-consensual ideation or behaviour, see Sexual sadism disorder... activities and relationships within a BDSM context are often characterized by the participants' taking on complementary, but unequal roles; thus, the idea of informed consent of both the partners becomes essential... BDSM has become an umbrella term for certain kinds of erotic behavior between consenting adults."

http://www.teramis.com/kink/bdsm_defined.htm

"There are many styles of kink that people engage in, but they all have one thing in common: they are activities that take place between consenting adults... The phrase ["Safe, Sane, Consensual"] rapidly caught on nation-wide, because it accurately captures the defining aspects of our BDSM interactions. People educate themselves about safety, they distinguish between fantasy and reality, and they negotiate consensual agreements as to the activities they engage in."

http://dtpr.lib.athabascau.ca/action/download.php?filename=mais/700/autumnedmonds-project.pdf

"Until recently, researchers have overlooked power exchange, but many in the community consider this element as essential, showing greater significance than was once associated with traditional theories (Cross & Matheson, 2006; Taylor & Ussher, 2001; Weinberg, 2006). Newmahr (2011) refers to BDSM as “the collection of activities that involve the mutually consensual and conscious use, among two or more people, of pain, power, perceptions about power, or any combination thereof, psychological, emotional, or sensory enjoyment.”

...

"The importance and value placed on consent and communication between participants contributes to the multifaceted world of BDSM, especially in scenarios of play (Beckmann, 2009; Cross & Matheson, 2006; Hooper, 2011; Newmahr, 2008; Meeker, 2012; Surprise, 2012; Taylor & Ussher, 2001; Weinberg, 2006). In the BDSM lifestyle, community, or identity, there is great emphasis on consent and safety as cornerstones of BDSM culture. Models of sexual consent and the sexual scripts are based on communication, explicit consent and openness. “To conceive of BDSM consent as separate from BDSM community, BDSM identity, and from the gatekeeping and rule enforcement, is to view an incomplete picture.” (Surprise, 2012, p.124)""

http://www.ejhs.org/volume17/BDSM.html

"The notion of consent has almost always been a core consideration at the heart of both popular (e.g., Miller & Devon, 1995; Taorimino, 2012; Wiseman, 1996) and more academic discussions of BDSM (e.g, Baldwin 2003; Langdridge & Barker, 2007; Weiss, 2011). Whether utilized as a kind of defense of BDSM or whether simply being beat into the heads (or preferably other body parts) of newbie practitioners, consent has often been thought of as a key element that distinguishes BDSM from violence and other types of abuse (Newmahr, 2011; Ortmann & Sprott, 2013)."

Arguing that anything containing cruelty or restraint belongs in BDSM is about as facile as saying the Gay Male category should be open to stories about happy whimsical heterosexual men, or that a piece about two guys hooking up on a certain Greek island belongs in "Lesbian Sex", or that "Romance" should accept zombie incest werewolf stories as long as they're written in French, Italian, or Catalan.

It's especially pointless when there's already a nonconsent section frequented by people who actually want to read such stories.

 

[AwkwardMD]

Arguing that anything containing cruelty or restraint belongs in BDSM is about as facile as saying the Gay Male category should be open to stories about happy whimsical heterosexual men, or that a piece about two guys hooking up on a certain Greek island belongs in "Lesbian Sex", or that "Romance" should accept zombie incest werewolf stories as long as they're written in French, Italian, or Catalan.

It's especially pointless when there's already a nonconsent section frequented by people who actually want to read such stories.

Three problems to parse here.

One, literally no one is arguing that a cruel story = BDSM. The argument is that a story that contains primarily BDSM elements should not be re-categorized merely because it contains a (perceived) lower common denominator.

Two, the inherent flaw in specific categorization is that no story could possibly appeal to all the readers "who want to read such stories", which kind of defeats the purpose.

Three, a comment I see the OP has gotten (that I've received as well) is "Would have been a 5 vote in Non-con, giving a 1 vote in BDSM". Clearly, the BDSM readership is frequented by people who like such stories, which further negates categorization at all.

Why this site has a tags system that you can't see until you're finished with the story, I'll never understand.

 

[sr71plt]

Arguing that anything containing cruelty or restraint belongs in BDSM is about as facile as saying the Gay Male category should be open to stories about happy whimsical heterosexual men, or that a piece about two guys hooking up on a certain Greek island belongs in "Lesbian Sex", or that "Romance" should accept zombie incest werewolf stories as long as they're written in French, Italian, or Catalan.

It's especially pointless when there's already a nonconsent section frequented by people who actually want to read such stories.

Sorry, that doesn't make a lick of sense and introduces false exaggerations. Restraint is bondage is the B in BDSM. So, stories on bondage can jolly well go in the Lit. BDSM category if they fit there as well as anywhere else. The same goes with stories on domination, sadism, and masochism. And they do, in fact, appear in that category here. This is just overthinking the parameters of the category and setting false limits.

And again, a fictional story focusing on bondage, domination, sadism, and/or masochism doesn't have to get the acts "right" by any set of "rules" to be a story on these elements.

You're falsely equating doing it in some organized fashion with writing about acts of bondage, domination, sadism, and/or masochism--which have been defined elements of acts for centuries.

 

[TangleLeg]

I'm new to having an account here, but I've been reading at Literotica off and on for years. I read the story because I noticed a negative comment in the recent comments section and it attracted my interest. (No publicity is bad publicity?) It didn't come off to me as being mainly about sex. My impression was that it is more about rape and violence, but that opinion is colored by my own bias.

I would not call it bdsm, and I am far from a purist/conformist to bdsm "rules." I'm into my own thing, the way I/we like it. After years of interaction with people living their versions of the bdsm lifestyle and significant personal experiences of my own, I would not want someone to look at that story and think it represented bdsm in any way. It looks like non con at best, but I have no interest in that genre. For my taste, the opening line was enough to turn me off, but that's me. I'd want to shoot a prick who punched a girl like that, even with consent, but I guess I'm a little closed minded.

The writing quality aside, I thought the story was in poor taste. I hope it's moved quickly. As for banning the story, that wouldn't break my heart. My impression was rape smut. I'm glad the writer has sense enough to backtrack from wanting to be seen as liking it.

*sigh* That's probably two cents too many...

 

[robertreams]

I have read stories, seen movies and known people who did not know they were the "M" in BDSM until someone introduced them by being cruel to them. And I know, in fiction at least, that sadists claim to be able to tell who is a closet "M". I guess what I have to add here is that the word is not the deed, nor is it necessarily the father of the deed. We have discussed this to death in other threads, but some folks just don't get it. Reading and writing fantasies is not the same as acting out. And even "acting" is not real. A very fine and nice woman I once had a relationship with, fought me as hard as she could for 45 minutes to keep me from "raping" her, but to no avail, I "raped" her anyway. I loved it! Loved the whole scene: the power, the violence! Does that mean that now I enjoy lying in wait and pouncing on innocent women and raping them. Bah, Humbug! Fantasy is not reality folks. The same woman and I had sex dressed as a priest and nun, during which I found various ways to "punish" her for her sins. Does that mean now I love to have sex with nuns? No I am probably still as afraid of them as I always was, but now I have sense enough to stay away from real nuns.

I do not know what it is called, but I am sure that being unable to distinguish fantasy from reality must be some sort of psychological disorder. (maybe only immaturity)

 

[lovecraft68]

This story has me curious as far as its results

Currently at 3.38 a pretty low score. BDSM is not known to be soft voted-because of people's different takes on what is/is not-but they are not generally this harsh.

If this story does get moved to non consent as the OP says it will be interesting to see if the score goes up and it gets some better feedback.

Problem is I don't think it will go up as a new story and won't get much attention when its moved.

Had it gone into Non con I am willing to bet it would be a good 1.00 higher and the comments far more positive as its a very common non con trope and one that is much enjoyed there.

The author getting ticked off about being told he is in the wrong category should be a little more grateful to those telling him to do so, especially if he has more material like this because the right category is going to net him more praise and a lot less hate.

Everyone is defensive about particular kinks and nothing pisses off the BDSM crowd more than being confused with sexual abuse and rape....put that there and it gets zapped and this story is exhibit A on that.

 

[Combat323]

Get an editor

Regardless of category and arguments about BDSM or Nonconsent vs. Rape (I mostly agree with lovecraft on that point) this story needs an editor. It occasionally slips into present tense for a verb or two, and there's a do/due homonym error. There are numerous places where a comma would clear up a confusing sentence. Other sentences are either not sentences or are confusing because something was left out or because the sentence is disordered in a way that causes subject/verb misattribution, for example:
"I went to all this you could see what was happening so why aren't you watching?"
and
"Open your eyes," his mouth close enough to her ear for her to feel his breath, "for me."
and
Elizabeth blinked a few times after reopening her eyes, bending over her as he was put his head lamp close enough to her face to make her eyes water.
As written, the last example has the subject, Elizabeth, blinking after reopening her eyes; so the flow of the sentence would cause readers to first attribute the action of bending over to the same subject. It should really be two sentences, and the second sentence probably shouldn't begin with "Bending over her as he was..."
There's a missing question mark at the end of the third paragraph. There are way too many -ing verbs. All fixable, but too extensive to fully correct in a forum post.

 

[AwkwardMD]

Everyone is defensive about particular kinks and nothing pisses off the BDSM crowd more than being confused with sexual abuse and rape....put that there and it gets zapped and this story is exhibit A on that.

And here we have the heart of the problem. The BDSM community thinks they're the only ones who know what true BDSM is, and they've taken it upon themselves to educate the uninformed. It's not that I wrote a story that contained elements of many genres, it's that I was confused.

Godspeed, you self-appointed arbiters. Godspeed.