Do Pubs really believe government spending does not create jobs?

KingOrfeo

Literotica Guru
Joined
Jul 27, 2008
Posts
39,182
Paul Krugman writes:

For the Love of Carbon

JAN. 11, 2015


It should come as no surprise that the very first move of the new Republican Senate is an attempt to push President Obama into approving the Keystone XL pipeline, which would carry oil from Canadian tar sands. After all, debts must be paid, and the oil and gas industry — which gave 87 percent of its 2014 campaign contributions to the G.O.P. — expects to be rewarded for its support.

But why is this environmentally troubling project an urgent priority in a time of plunging world oil prices? Well, the party line, from people like Mitch McConnell, the new Senate majority leader, is that it’s all about jobs. And it’s true: Building Keystone XL could slightly increase U.S. employment. In fact, it might replace almost 5 percent of the jobs America has lost because of destructive cuts in federal spending, which were in turn the direct result of Republican blackmail over the debt ceiling.

Oh, and don’t tell me that the cases are completely different. You can’t consistently claim that pipeline spending creates jobs while government spending doesn’t.

Let’s back up for a minute and discuss economic principles.

For more than seven years — ever since the Bush-era housing and debt bubbles burst — the United States economy has suffered from inadequate demand. Total spending just hasn’t been enough to fully employ the nation’s resources. In such an environment, anything that increases spending creates jobs. And if private spending is depressed, a temporary rise in public spending can and should take its place. That’s why a great majority of economists believe that the Obama stimulus did, in fact, reduce the unemployment rate compared with what it would have been without that stimulus.

From the beginning, however, Republican leaders have held the opposite view, insisting that we should slash public spending in the face of high unemployment. And they’ve gotten their way: The years after 2010, when Republicans took control of the House, were marked by an unprecedented decline in real government spending per capita, which leveled off only in 2014.

The evidence overwhelmingly indicates that this kind of fiscal austerity in a depressed economy is destructive; if the economic news has been better lately, it’s probably in part because of the fact that federal, state and local governments have finally stopped cutting. And spending cuts have, in particular, cost a lot of jobs. When the Congressional Budget Office was asked how many jobs would be lost because of the sequester — the big cuts in federal spending that Republicans extracted in 2011 by threatening to push America into default — its best estimate was 900,000. And that’s only part of the total loss.

Needless to say, the guilty parties here will never admit that they were wrong. But if you look at their behavior closely, you see clear signs that they don’t really believe in their own doctrine.

Consider, for example, the case of military spending. When it comes to possible cuts in defense contracts, politicians who loudly proclaim that every dollar the government spends comes at the expense of the private sector suddenly begin talking about all the jobs that will be destroyed. They even begin talking about the multiplier effect, as reduced spending by defense workers leads to job losses in other industries. This is the phenomenon former Representative Barney Frank dubbed “weaponized Keynesianism.”

And the argument being made for Keystone XL is very similar; call it “carbonized Keynesianism.” Yes, approving the pipeline would mobilize some money that would otherwise have sat idle, and in so doing create some jobs — 42,000 during the construction phase, according to the most widely cited estimate. (Once completed, the pipeline would employ only a few dozen workers.) But government spending on roads, bridges and schools would do the same thing.

And the job gains from the pipeline would, as I said, be only a tiny fraction — less than 5 percent — of the job losses from sequestration, which in turn are only part of the damage done by spending cuts in general. If Mr. McConnell and company really believe that we need more spending to create jobs, why not support a push to upgrade America’s crumbling infrastructure?

So what should be done about Keystone XL? If you believe that it would be environmentally damaging — which I do — then you should be against it, and you should ignore the claims about job creation. The numbers being thrown around are tiny compared with the country’s overall work force. And in any case, the jobs argument for the pipeline is basically a sick joke coming from people who have done all they can to destroy American jobs — and are now employing the very arguments they used to ridicule government job programs to justify a big giveaway to their friends in the fossil fuel industry.
 
Please give this bullshit a rest.

Please specify what part is bullshit and why.

This?

The evidence overwhelmingly indicates that this kind of fiscal austerity in a depressed economy is destructive; if the economic news has been better lately, it’s probably in part because of the fact that federal, state and local governments have finally stopped cutting. And spending cuts have, in particular, cost a lot of jobs. When the Congressional Budget Office was asked how many jobs would be lost because of the sequester — the big cuts in federal spending that Republicans extracted in 2011 by threatening to push America into default — its best estimate was 900,000. And that’s only part of the total loss.

Or this?

Consider, for example, the case of military spending. When it comes to possible cuts in defense contracts, politicians who loudly proclaim that every dollar the government spends comes at the expense of the private sector suddenly begin talking about all the jobs that will be destroyed. They even begin talking about the multiplier effect, as reduced spending by defense workers leads to job losses in other industries. This is the phenomenon former Representative Barney Frank dubbed “weaponized Keynesianism.”

Or this?

And the argument being made for Keystone XL is very similar; call it “carbonized Keynesianism.” Yes, approving the pipeline would mobilize some money that would otherwise have sat idle, and in so doing create some jobs — 42,000 during the construction phase, according to the most widely cited estimate. (Once completed, the pipeline would employ only a few dozen workers.) But government spending on roads, bridges and schools would do the same thing.
 
Well.

The first rule of oil and all things associated with it is that the price of oil and everything refining it involves, fluctuates.

What goes up crashes and what goes down slowly goes up and usually higher priced than before.

The cost of that pipeline is NOT going to go down with time passing. The demand for oil and petroleum products will increase.

Our shit for brains President forgets we produce the largest amount of refined petroleum products in the world for a reason.

We can sell them! Meaning more jobs and more taxes paid.
We could do with a few more refineries too.
 
http://www.scientificamerican.com/a...-cannot-be-burned-to-restrain-global-warming/
January 7, 2015 |By David Biello
A new analysis notes that fossil fuel reserves like Canada's oil sands cannot be used if the world is serious about restraining global warming to 2 degrees Celsius or less.
© David Biello

Canada, Russia, Saudi Arabia and the U.S. cannot burn much of the coal, oil and gas located within their national territories if the world wants to restrain global warming. That’s the conclusion of a new analysis aimed at determining what it will take to keep average global temperatures from rising more than 2 degrees Celsius this century—a goal adopted during ongoing negotiations under the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change.

"If we want to reach the two degree limit in the most cost-effective manner, over 80 percent of current coal, half of gas and one third of oil need to be classified as unburnable," said Christophe McGlade, a research associate at University College London's Institute for Sustainable Resources (ISR) and lead author of the report published in Nature on January 8, during a press conference. (Scientific American is part of Nature Publishing Group.) Those global restrictions apply even if technologies that can capture carbon dioxide and dispose of it become widespread over the next decade. "Rapid development of [carbon capture and storage] only allows you to produce very slightly more."

According to the study, the vast coal deposits to be found in China, Russia and the U.S. should remain underground, as should most of the natural gas in the Middle East. Nevertheless, natural gas in other parts of the world, such as the U.S., could play a big role in reducing CO2 pollution—but only if it is used to substitute for even dirtier coal and does not keep more nuclear or renewable sources of power from being built.
 
NO, ITS CALLED WELFARE, unless defense spending, then patriotic American BUT EVERYTHING ELSE IS LIBURHUHL COMMIE BULLSHIT!!

The RW has absolutely no special interest in defense spending.......don't ever forget that OR YER JUST A SOCIALIST COMMIE LIBURHUL!!!!

-Teh RWCJ

:cool:
 
The basic argument is identical for bank robbers and looters and rioters, too. Government and other thieves redistribute cash from one place to another.
 
Welcome back my friends to the rant that never ends...

That's right, James. TAXES BAD!
 
Government does create jobs, but it forces YOU to pay their salaries!

[shrug] Taxes are as inevitable as death; how they're spent remains open for discussion. I'd like to see them put to work repairing and upgrading America's crumbling infrastructure.
 
[shrug] Taxes are as inevitable as death; how they're spent remains open for discussion. I'd like to see them put to work repairing and upgrading America's crumbling infrastructure.

But that is the trick isn't it? Gotta keep the congresscritters from siphoning off the money for "other" pet projects...
 
Yeah stupid repubs. It's so easy: we put men to work digging holes and then... we fill them back up!!!! Why didn't those hicks think of that before?? Imagine the economic stimulation!!!! -John Maynard Keynes' Ghost.
 
Government does create jobs, but it forces YOU to pay their salaries!

Except that's kinda only half true, at least in a country where the government controls the currency. They could (and to some extent should) tax simply to destroy money. No other reason and could print on the other end for the same reason.

Taxing and spending is honestly an accounting trick.
 
as a taxpayer you pay their salary

Government does create jobs, but it forces YOU to pay their salaries!

As a taxpayer you get to use what they make. I am sure you know of a road or bridge that needs fixing. Public works is the way to get something back for your welfare investment.

Are you just going to let people starve? No, you pay them to do work that needs to be done. Since Reagan was elected the republicans have cut taxes over and over, letting the infrastructure go to hell while they did it.

The choice is simple, we let the rich put their money away or we make them pay taxes. In the past we had tax laws that forced the rich to use their money to make life better for all americans. Now under republican laws the rich can do whatever they want to do and the poor have to do without.

And the poor is a greater share of the american public now than ever before. You have to go back to the great depression to find this much misery in america.

And yet like a battered wife, the american voter has given the right the means to inflict more misery on us all. You would think that the american voter would learn it lesson about the republicans but it seems that no matter how bad they hurt the country, the voters will let them back in after a very short time.
 
Elizabeth Warren has 9 million bux, Hillary has 250 million, Obamullah is worth 200 million. Seems like taxes makes pols rich.
 
secret donors maybe but not taxes

Elizabeth Warren has 9 million bux, Hillary has 250 million, Obamullah is worth 200 million. Seems like taxes makes pols rich.

Hiding money is a republican trick. All pols are whores, we all know this but the republicans have made it an industry. They have legalised bribery with their citizens united case which gives the rich the power to control elections. Speech is a freedom that should be shared equally among all americans but the citizens united decision makes a rich guy have the ability to take away my political voice.

And the Obama's are not worth two hundred million dollars.
 
Public spending (especially on infrastructure) is the stupidist way to create jobs. We already owe 18 trillion dollars! Anytime you put people to work by government spending you create massive waste. For every one billion dollars you generate in paying wages to support infrastructure you have to spend another 19 billion dollars on supplies. So the government charges the taxpayers or borrows 20 billion dollars so we can pay some people one billion dollars in wages. It would be cheaper to just to give the unemployed one billion dollars. The best way to create jobs is to grow the economy and let the businesses pay the workers instead of the government having to borrow another 20 billion to pay workers one billion.
 
That's basically what they do, or more accurately shift purchasing power from one sector to another.

No, in America they make a huge point of not doing that. And shifting the purchasing power is not the same as just burning money which a strong argument can be made for doing.
 
I have to disagree

Public spending (especially on infrastructure) is the stupidist way to create jobs. We already owe 18 trillion dollars! Anytime you put people to work by government spending you create massive waste. For every one billion dollars you generate in paying wages to support infrastructure you have to spend another 19 billion dollars on supplies. So the government charges the taxpayers or borrows 20 billion dollars so we can pay some people one billion dollars in wages. It would be cheaper to just to give the unemployed one billion dollars. The best way to create jobs is to grow the economy and let the businesses pay the workers instead of the government having to borrow another 20 billion to pay workers one billion.

Infrastructure is the wild card in the middle of the table, it helps everybodies hand.

Just to keep this simple, lets imagine we are building a twenty billion dollar road system. Say your figures are correct, which I am pretty sure labor is a higher percentage of total cost, but using your figures. we get one billion injected into the system right now with the labor. We then get the other billions spent on gravel, asphalt and other materials. All these businesses have employees and they all buy equipment from companies who have their own payrolls.

You do know that the army corp of engineers as a rule don't build roads, so all the work is contracted out to construction companies who pay taxes.

I am not saying this is true, I am just pulling these numbers from my head, but I think a dollar is spent several times in a single week. A great deal of those 'spendings' are taxed with sales taxes. I bet that every dollar injected into an area generates fifty cents in sales taxes before it is sucked back into the larger centers of banking. I am not saying that this is the case but I think it is a reasonable assumption.

And that is just the building of the road system. For years afterward offer a benefit for every business that demands transport of goods or people. For years trucks will haul commerce up and down its pavement.

That twenty billion is buying america a chance to compete, that twenty billion spent on infrastructure buys america an important tool for our tool box. A tool we will need if we are ever going to restore america back to where it once was.
 
Back
Top