Immigration - Assimilation

Ishmael

Literotica Guru
Joined
Nov 24, 2001
Posts
84,005
There has always been the presumption on the part of the wholesale immigration proponents that the new immigrants will eventually assimilate into the culture. As a matter of fact the US was one of the premier examples of how that worked, a fact we were quite proud of for many, many, years. It generally took 3 generations before an immigrant population was assimilated into the culture, but assimilate they did.

We are now seeing a change in the paradigm. Immigrants, legal and illegal, are NOT assimilating into the culture. And this phenomena is not restricted to the US alone. Virtually all of the Western nations are observing this shift in acculturation.

The EU is experimenting with the free flow of goods and labor, which as a general doctrine is a good idea. The US has always had that sort of doctrine in place regarding the flow of labor between the various states. But the US enjoyed the fact that that mobile labor force was all of the same culture and were united by a common language. That is not the case with the EU and the problems of not having a common culture and language are beginning to manifest themselves.

Further, as a guiding principle immigration is a good thing. A renewal of the blood so to speak. The issue there now hinges on the quality of the immigrants.

Getting on to assimilation, the previous waves of immigrants to the US were immediately disconnected from their homeland culture and non-immigrant associates. Sure, they could, and did, write letters but that form of communication would take weeks, even months, to complete on communication cycle. Not so anymore. With mass air travel and the electronic frontier communication is instant. It's as if they never left their home land, or more the case that they just happen to be on a working vacation. There is no incentive to assimilate. We are seeing, both here in the US and in the EU, third and fourth generation immigrants that have NOT assimilated. Indeed they have made no attempt to do so. This is a prescription for disaster.

So what's the solution to this problem? I don't have a clue right now, I don't even know if there is one.

Ishmael
 
They won'ts assimilate! Hates them, we do! Thems and their nassssty Spanish! *Gollum*
 
I would add that their cultural purview seems to be so vastly different than ours to the point that many see themselves as virtuous and good and the West decadent and perverse making assimilation extraordinarily unlikely; they are attracted by the wealth but appalled by the culture that created the wealth. It is very much a reversal of roles between the West and the Byzantine East in the time leading up to the Crusading era.
 
"... How odd is it that bakeries not usually considered public accommodations (for other than racial discrimination) under our laws are compelled to bake gay wedding cakes while Somali-born cab drivers in Minnesota -- engaged what is always considered a public accommodation -- are exempt from carrying even aid dogs or passengers with liquor?"
Clarice Feldman, American Thinker
 
I would add that their cultural purview seems to be so vastly different than ours to the point that many see themselves as virtuous and good and the West decadent and perverse making assimilation extraordinarily unlikely; they are attracted by the wealth but appalled by the culture that created the wealth. It is very much a reversal of roles between the West and the Byzantine East in the time leading up to the Crusading era.

Youre correct. Islam spread because it offered economic incentives to converts...no taxes, for one. And so long as converts didn't revolt or foment rebellion they were pretty much at liberty to do as they pleased. But Islam ran outta money and the Visigoths grabbed Muslim territory and the fats in the fire to this day. Every government and emigrant group keeps it going. New Yorkers move to Pixley-Hooterville for the bucolic wonders then transform the pastures into the Bronx.
 
Getting on to assimilation, the previous waves of immigrants to the US were immediately disconnected from their homeland culture and non-immigrant associates. Sure, they could, and did, write letters but that form of communication would take weeks, even months, to complete on communication cycle. Not so anymore. With mass air travel and the electronic frontier communication is instant. It's as if they never left their home land, or more the case that they just happen to be on a working vacation. There is no incentive to assimilate. We are seeing, both here in the US and in the EU, third and fourth generation immigrants that have NOT assimilated. Indeed they have made no attempt to do so. This is a prescription for disaster.

So what's the solution to this problem? I don't have a clue right now, I don't even know if there is one.

I even don't know if there is a problem. Some people don't assimilate, like that one Italian in the WTC who got a transport enterprise, though he never spoke a word in English. It's their thing if they want to. If people have no incentive to assimilate, it may not speak much for the system. I don't see a problem here in Europe, especially not in Germany. Though some people fear estrangement when they heard about a mosquee in Germany the first time.
 
I would add that their cultural purview seems to be so vastly different than ours to the point that many see themselves as virtuous and good and the West decadent and perverse making assimilation extraordinarily unlikely; they are attracted by the wealth but appalled by the culture that created the wealth. It is very much a reversal of roles between the West and the Byzantine East in the time leading up to the Crusading era.

I think that's true of every culture going back throughout history. "The way we did things in the old country." syndrome. And economic opportunity and/or freedom from oppression were the prime motivators. How many people want to immigrate to N. Korea or El Salvador?

But in the past time and distance forced assimilation, especially among subsequent generations. And many of the first generation immigrants tried to impress upon their children the need to assimilate for economic reasons if nothing else. They understood that integrating into the dominant culture opened the door to opportunities.

In this age of instant communication and virtually instant travel those pressures no longer exist. Further the West has embraced this doctrine of cultural equality. As a philosophical tenet it's easy to intellectualize. In practice it's not working out so well. The subsequent generations of immigrants are disenfranchised from the mainstream culture and they've done it to themselves. It's nothing more than a self-imposed doctrine of separate but equal, segregation writ large.

Ishmael
 
I would argue that its spread was more of a filling in the void created by the collapse of agrarian empire that finally burned through all possible western wealth...

:(

... eventually they succumbed to the same economic reality, eventually you run out of new lands and peoples to plunder. I think the West has transformed into a backward economic paradigm that is also quickly running of of fresh sources of plunder leaving an increasingly isolated ruling class desperately trying to keep their slave class placated and quiet with just enough sustenance to get them through the next election cycle. We are ripe fruit for a poorer culture that actually believes itself deserving becoming the ruling class via the judicious use of force, intimidation and rhetoric.
 
...

In this age of instant communication and virtually instant travel those pressures no longer exist. Further the West has embraced this doctrine of cultural equality. As a philosophical tenet it's easy to intellectualize. In practice it's not working out so well. The subsequent generations of immigrants are disenfranchised from the mainstream culture and they've done it to themselves. It's nothing more than a self-imposed doctrine of separate but equal, segregation writ large.

Ishmael

The western intellectual is clearly more comfortable with the diversity of his colleagues, even when their ideas are in clear conflict and in sharp contrast but are confined to world where endless debate is normative while his fellow citizens alarm and cause revulsion with their proclivity to cling to non-intellectual norms and to directly act on that belief system with little concern of what is thought of them by the elites. I suspect that it has long been that way for cultures that have passed their prime.
 
I think that's true of every culture going back throughout history. "The way we did things in the old country." syndrome. And economic opportunity and/or freedom from oppression were the prime motivators. How many people want to immigrate to N. Korea or El Salvador?

But in the past time and distance forced assimilation, especially among subsequent generations. And many of the first generation immigrants tried to impress upon their children the need to assimilate for economic reasons if nothing else. They understood that integrating into the dominant culture opened the door to opportunities.

In this age of instant communication and virtually instant travel those pressures no longer exist. Further the West has embraced this doctrine of cultural equality. As a philosophical tenet it's easy to intellectualize. In practice it's not working out so well. The subsequent generations of immigrants are disenfranchised from the mainstream culture and they've done it to themselves. It's nothing more than a self-imposed doctrine of separate but equal, segregation writ large.

Ishmael

Sure. People wanna fit in and wear the cool clothes. In a Chinese restaurant the other day I sat by a East European family new to America. All of them dressed like the Czech brothers of Saturday Night Live. Whew. Who knew you could do so many bad things with stripes and plaids and bright colors. But they got the buffet down pat.
 
The western intellectual is clearly more comfortable with the diversity of his colleagues, even when their ideas are in clear conflict and in sharp contrast but are confined to world where endless debate is normative while his fellow citizens alarm and cause revulsion with their proclivity to cling to non-intellectual norms and to directly act on that belief system with little concern of what is thought of them by the elites. I suspect that it has long been that way for cultures that have passed their prime.

;) ;)

The British press has never seemed as out of touch as it is today. All our broadsheet papers are packed with pleas to the people of France, and other European populations, not to turn into Muslim-killing nutjobs in response to the Charlie Hebdo massacre. The Guardian frets over “Islamophobes seizing this atrocity to advance their hatred.” The Financial Times is in a spin about “Islamophobic extremists” using the massacre to “[challenge] the tolerance on which Europe has built its peace.” One British hack says we should all “fear the coming Islamophobic backlash.” And what actually happened in France as these dead-tree pieces about a possible Islamophobic backlash made their appearance? Jews were assaulted. And killed. “Don’t attack Muslims,” lectures the press as Jews are attacked.

Across Europe, among the right-thinking sections of society, among the political classes, the response to the massacre of the cartoonists and satirists has been the same: to panic about how Them, the native masses, especially the more right-wing sections of the French population, might respond to it. The blood on the floor of the Charlie Hebdo offices was still wet when brow-furrowed observers started saying: “Oh no, the Muslims! Will they be attacked?” It’s the same after every terrorist attack: from 9/11 to 7/7 in London to last year’s Sydney siege to Paris today: Liberals’ instant, almost Pavlovian response to Islamist terror attacks in the West is to worry about a violent uprising of the ill-educated against Muslims. The uprising never comes, but that doesn’t halt their fantasy fears. What’s it all about?

...

Islamophobia is a myth. Sure, some folks in Europe and elsewhere no doubt dislike Muslims, just as other losers hate the Irish or blacks or women. But the idea that there is a climate of Islamophobia, a culture of hot-headed, violent-minded hatred for Muslims that could be awoken and unleashed by the next terror attack, is an invention. Islamophobia is a code word for mainstream European elites’ fear of their own populations, of their native hordes, whom they imagine to be unenlightened, prejudiced, easily led by the tabloid media, and given to outbursts of spite and violence. The thing that keeps the Islamophobia panic alive is not actual violence against Muslims but the right-on politicos’ ill-founded yet deeply held view of ordinary Europeans, especially those of a working-class variety, as racist and stupid. This is the terrible irony of the Islamophobia panic: The fearers of anti-Muslim violence claim to be challenging prejudice but actually they reveal their own prejudices, their distrust of and disdain for those who come from the other side of the tracks, read different newspapers, hold different beliefs, live different lives. They accuse stupid white communities of viewing Muslims as an indistinguishable mob who threaten the fabric of European society, which is exactly what they think of stupid white communities.
Brendan O'Neill, NRO
 
Where are these people not assimilating? As a Southern Californian I don't personally know anybody who's third generation mostly cus I don't ask for pedigree but I don't know any child of an immigrant who doesn't speak english, eat American cuisine and are as culturally American as such a thing exists. I mean yeah they still in the case of our Southern neighbors still eat Hispanic food, but I fail to see the problem there.
 
Some of the things we take for granted in the United States are actually from immigrants not assimilation to the US status quo, like having Saturdays off for instance.
That came the factories in the 1800 that employed Jews who would not work on the Sabbath.
 
Where are these people not assimilating? As a Southern Californian I don't personally know anybody who's third generation mostly cus I don't ask for pedigree but I don't know any child of an immigrant who doesn't speak english, eat American cuisine and are as culturally American as such a thing exists. I mean yeah they still in the case of our Southern neighbors still eat Hispanic food, but I fail to see the problem there.
Are you kidding? They're all right there on Ishmael's television.
 
Where are these people not assimilating? As a Southern Californian I don't personally know anybody who's third generation mostly cus I don't ask for pedigree but I don't know any child of an immigrant who doesn't speak english, eat American cuisine and are as culturally American as such a thing exists. I mean yeah they still in the case of our Southern neighbors still eat Hispanic food, but I fail to see the problem there.


Pretty much true. These are very old arguments being made by the anti-immigrant types today.

Also, people greatly overestimate the ease and speed of assimilation in decades past. If you back to the late 19th century, there were hundreds of German language newspapers in the United States.
 
Pretty much true. These are very old arguments being made by the anti-immigrant types today.

Also, people greatly overestimate the ease and speed of assimilation in decades past. If you back to the late 19th century, there were hundreds of German language newspapers in the United States.

Well Ish's claim was it normally takes three generations. Which on average would be what? Fifty, sixty years? I know people used to have children younger so making the assumption of it being 20 years per person isn't necessarily fair but still.

I remember seeing those pics of people voting in Russian I think.
 
There has always been the presumption on the part of the wholesale immigration proponents that the new immigrants will eventually assimilate into the culture. As a matter of fact the US was one of the premier examples of how that worked, a fact we were quite proud of for many, many, years. It generally took 3 generations before an immigrant population was assimilated into the culture, but assimilate they did.

We are now seeing a change in the paradigm. Immigrants, legal and illegal, are NOT assimilating into the culture. And this phenomena is not restricted to the US alone. Virtually all of the Western nations are observing this shift in acculturation.

The EU is experimenting with the free flow of goods and labor, which as a general doctrine is a good idea. The US has always had that sort of doctrine in place regarding the flow of labor between the various states. But the US enjoyed the fact that that mobile labor force was all of the same culture and were united by a common language. That is not the case with the EU and the problems of not having a common culture and language are beginning to manifest themselves.

Further, as a guiding principle immigration is a good thing. A renewal of the blood so to speak. The issue there now hinges on the quality of the immigrants.

Getting on to assimilation, the previous waves of immigrants to the US were immediately disconnected from their homeland culture and non-immigrant associates. Sure, they could, and did, write letters but that form of communication would take weeks, even months, to complete on communication cycle. Not so anymore. With mass air travel and the electronic frontier communication is instant. It's as if they never left their home land, or more the case that they just happen to be on a working vacation. There is no incentive to assimilate. We are seeing, both here in the US and in the EU, third and fourth generation immigrants that have NOT assimilated. Indeed they have made no attempt to do so. This is a prescription for disaster.

So what's the solution to this problem? I don't have a clue right now, I don't even know if there is one.

Ishmael

Why would you want anyone to assimilate into the United Socialist State of America?

As the evidence shows...

...almost without exception, immigrants are heartily assimilating into the collective as quick as the corrupt politicos are paving their way to do so.

When are so many going to finally realize that on this issue and so many others...

...the horse long ago left the barn?

That it is no longer a matter of mending...

...but one of building from the ground up once more?
 
Where are these people not assimilating? As a Southern Californian I don't personally know anybody who's third generation mostly cus I don't ask for pedigree but I don't know any child of an immigrant who doesn't speak english, eat American cuisine and are as culturally American as such a thing exists. I mean yeah they still in the case of our Southern neighbors still eat Hispanic food, but I fail to see the problem there.

Ish is just using code words for "Fucking Mexicans won't speak English". :cool:
 
Pretty much true. These are very old arguments being made by the anti-immigrant types today.

Also, people greatly overestimate the ease and speed of assimilation in decades past. If you back to the late 19th century, there were hundreds of German language newspapers in the United States.

At one point relatively recently, they tried to ban the use of the word "Ja" for yes in schools here, it didn't go over well.
 
I am third generation American on my mom's side and eleventh generation my father's side. My mom and my grandmother are/were totally fluent in English, as far as culturally assimilated, not total esp. in my grandmother's case. I am not totally assimilated on some things, not that outsiders would notice much if anything.
 
In that case define totally assimilated. Are African Americans (who's culture is nothing BUT American all former identity was stripped away) totally assimilated or does the fact that I eat chitlins and chicken feet make me not assimilated. Are Jews not assimilated if they do Hannukah instead of Christmas? Are various Asians who still give their children native names instead of Chris and Brad not assimilated?
 
Assimilation isn't required. I don't care if immigrants eat hot dogs or go to baseball games. All i ask is they learn English so that the rest of us can communicate with them.
 
Assimilation isn't required. I don't care if immigrants eat hot dogs or go to baseball games. All i ask is they learn English so that the rest of us can communicate with them.

IS that not assimilation? I don't mean to be flippant but at this point I'm truly not certain what assimilation even means. Does it mean being a white english speaking Christian cus I'm incapable of one of those and unwilling to do another. Does it mean watching football and eating hot dogs cus I one of those I only do once a year and it's just because it's not worth the effort to avoid.
 
They won'ts assimilate! Hates them, we do! Thems and their nassssty Spanish! *Gollum*

I am sure that it was a bitter disappointment to flee South from Georgia to get away from, as you call them, "those people" who were, as you put it, "invading Atlanta," only find the had brown people in Florida and Texas as well.
 
Back
Top