Using phonetics - regional and foreign dialogue

[grumpyg]

Having just had a story thrown back to me for numerous spelling mistakes (despite making the editors aware of what I'd done) I wondered if there is any way I can imitate a, say, French national by using phonetic spelling. Eg a French speaker would pronounce an I or a Y as 'ee', so 'Sorry' would become 'Sorree' and 'Mister' becomes 'Meester' etc. I think this adds to the enjoyment, and makes the dialogue more realistic. Another example would be the German 'w' which is always pronounced 'v' and the 've' in 'have' becomes 'f' eg 've haf vays of making you spell. I did a workaround, but didn't get the effect I wanted.

 

[Aquagal]

That would be so annoying to read at any length.

 

[unregistered]

 

[CandiCame]

There are books we have to read in school with MY OWN regional dialect spelled out and that shit was annoying when I knew what they sounded like. If you say a character is, say, a redneck, you don't need to write their dialogue like this:

"I looks like gwine to heaven, an't thar where white folks is gwine? S'pose they'd have me thar? I'd rather go to torment, and get away from Mas'r and Missis. I had so."
- Harriet Beecher Stowe, Uncle Tom's Cabin, Ch. 18

Meaning, "It looks like going to heaven; but isn't that where white folks are going? Suppose they'd have me there? I'd rather go to torment, and get away from Master and Mistress. I really would."

Stowe already said the characters were southern. I, naturally, speak and interact with people who speak like that. And I would still rather read it written in actual words than spelled out phonetically. I understand the accent without having it spelled out for me. And when you spell it out, what you, as an author are saying, is that you think your audience is too stupid to apply the correct accent to your character. And that's insulting.

 

[Beatnic_jazzman]

Not at all.

To someone like me from the UK it would more readily define the character. It might be tedious if not well written but there's nothing wrong with the format.

 

[Aquagal]

There are books we have to read in school with MY OWN regional dialect spelled out and that shit was annoying when I knew what they sounded like. If you say a character is, say, a redneck, you don't need to write their dialogue like this:

"I looks like gwine to heaven, an't thar where white folks is gwine? S'pose they'd have me thar? I'd rather go to torment, and get away from Mas'r and Missis. I had so."
- Harriet Beecher Stowe, Uncle Tom's Cabin, Ch. 18

Meaning, "It looks like going to heaven; but isn't that where white folks are going? Suppose they'd have me there? I'd rather go to torment, and get away from Master and Mistress. I really would."

Stowe already said the characters were southern. I, naturally, speak and interact with people who speak like that. And I would still rather read it written in actual words than spelled out phonetically. I understand the accent without having it spelled out for me. And when you spell it out, what you, as an author are saying, is that you think your audience is too stupid to apply the correct accent to your character. And that's insulting.

And the above is why it would be annoying, without Candi's translation I didn't know what the fuck was said. I spent about 5 secs thinking whats gwine?
Then moved on.

Btw Candi, after reading this, I think you should do a voice post in that thread.

 

[Kitty]

Having just had a story thrown back to me for numerous spelling mistakes (despite making the editors aware of what I'd done) I wondered if there is any way I can imitate a, say, French national by using phonetic spelling. Eg a French speaker would pronounce an I or a Y as 'ee', so 'Sorry' would become 'Sorree' and 'Mister' becomes 'Meester' etc. I think this adds to the enjoyment, and makes the dialogue more realistic. Another example would be the German 'w' which is always pronounced 'v' and the 've' in 'have' becomes 'f' eg 've haf vays of making you spell. I did a workaround, but didn't get the effect I wanted.

I love Trainspotting. Classic novel for its phonetic spelling of the Gaelic Scottish accent and pronunciation. Wouldn't be the same without it.

I also am penning a novel which uses some Cockney rhyming, and Patois, and have studied for 4 years now how to sound out the accent.

I think it's classic, just provide some kind of note or translation section. Not for the lazy or those uninterested in cultural dialect, though. Mind your audience, but use as much poetic license as you wish.

 

[CandiCame]

And the above is why it would be annoying, without Candi's translation I didn't know what the fuck was said. I spent about 5 secs thinking whats gwine?
Then moved on.

Btw Candi, after reading this, I think you should do a voice post in that thread.

And the thing is, it's a good book! But the whole fucking thing is written like that! And I understand it, because I know the dialect and it's STILL annoying. I guess to somebody who doesn't already know the dialect it's just fucking unreadable. That passage is one of the more emotional ones in the book. Tom is devoutly religious, and he's talking to a young woman about Heaven, as they're awaiting an auction to be sold as slaves. She's saying that if she has to go Heaven, with people who torment other people for free labor, she doesn't want to go there. It's really emotional and really powerful- IF YOU CAN FUCKING UNDERSTAND IT.

Edit: Tho every single character in that book aggravate the shit out of me. I would not have survived in that time period. Which is apparently normal for woodlands native folk in general. The complete culture clash and whatnot.

 

[CandiCame]

I love Trainspotting. Classic novel for its phonetic spelling of the Gaelic Scottish accent and pronunciation. Wouldn't be the same without it.

I also am penning a novel which uses some Cockney rhyming, and Patois, and have studied for 4 years now how to sound out the accent.

I think it's classic, just provide some kind of note or translation section. Not for the lazy or those uninterested in cultural dialect, though. Mind your audience, but use as much poetic license as you wish.

Damn. I wanted to read that. I love the movie. But that sounds aggravating as fuck. Everybody's already high as shit and they're going to write it so you can't understand them?

 

[Kitty]

Damn. I wanted to read that. I love the movie. But that sounds aggravating as fuck. Everybody's already high as shit and they're going to write it so you can't understand them?

The author is very very proud of being Scottish, and has had a similar life to the characters. He really wanted to put that kind of lifestyle on the map, including ethnography and dialect. But never fear, the whole novel throughout doesn't narrate like that, as it is very retroactive; it was just for the idea and really puts you in the setting! Like look here (I downloaded the full plain text, every page ):

"The sweat wis lashing oafay Sick Boy; he wis trembling. Ah wis jist sitting thair, focusing oan the
telly, tryin no tae notice the cunt. He wis bringing me doon. Ah tried tae keep ma attention oan the
Jean–Claude Van Damme video.
As happens in such movies, they started oaf wi an obligatory dramatic opening. Then the next phase
ay the picture involved building up the tension through introducing the dastardly villain and
sticking the weak plot thegither. Any minute now though, auld Jean–Claude's ready tae git doon tae
some serious swedgin. – Rents. Ah've goat tae see Mother Superior, Sick Boy gasped, shaking his
heid.
Aw, ah sais. Ah wanted the radge tae jist fuck off ootay ma visage, tae go oan his ain, n jist leave us
wi Jean–Claude. Oan the other hand, ah'd be gitting sick tae before long, and if that cunt went n
scored, he'd haud oot oan us. They call urn Sick Boy, no because he's eywis sick wi junk withdrawal..."

First page If you've ever spoken to Scot or even an Irishman you will just be smiling like yes they talk just like that.

 

[CandiCame]

The author is very very proud of being Scottish, and has had a similar life to the characters. He really wanted to put that kind of lifestyle on the map, including ethnography and dialect. But never fear, the whole novel throughout doesn't narrate like that, as it is very retroactive; it was just for the idea and really puts you in the setting! Like look here (I downloaded the full plain text, every page ):

"The sweat wis lashing oafay Sick Boy; he wis trembling. Ah wis jist sitting thair, focusing oan the
telly, tryin no tae notice the cunt. He wis bringing me doon. Ah tried tae keep ma attention oan the
Jean–Claude Van Damme video.
As happens in such movies, they started oaf wi an obligatory dramatic opening. Then the next phase
ay the picture involved building up the tension through introducing the dastardly villain and
sticking the weak plot thegither. Any minute now though, auld Jean–Claude's ready tae git doon tae
some serious swedgin. – Rents. Ah've goat tae see Mother Superior, Sick Boy gasped, shaking his
heid.
Aw, ah sais. Ah wanted the radge tae jist fuck off ootay ma visage, tae go oan his ain, n jist leave us
wi Jean–Claude. Oan the other hand, ah'd be gitting sick tae before long, and if that cunt went n
scored, he'd haud oot oan us. They call urn Sick Boy, no because he's eywis sick wi junk withdrawal..."

First page If you've ever spoken to Scot or even an Irishman you will just be smiling like yes they talk just like that.

Yeah. That's awful. In my head it would be a Scottish accent anyway. That's just insulting to the reader.

 

[Kitty]

Yeah. That's awful. In my head it would be a Scottish accent anyway. That's just insulting to the reader.

Well for one it's cult like not a popular but very loyal, admiring fanbase. Keep in mind there are people who have no clue what the Scottish accent is. I think it also has to do with the little feud between Scots and English. Perhaps he just wanted to emphasize how different the worlds are.

It's like using patois in a book about Jamaican shottas/gangsters in London. Saying "fi gwan pon de corna" is not the same as "we're going to the corner."

 

[CandiCame]

Well for one it's cult like not a popular but very loyal, admiring fanbase. Keep in mind there are people who have no clue what the Scottish accent is. I think it also has to do with the little feud between Scots and English. Perhaps he just wanted to emphasize how different the worlds are.

It's like using patois in a book about Jamaican shottas/gangsters in London. Saying "fi gwan pon de corna" is not the same as "we're going to the corner."

Who the hell in this day and age, with so many Scottish actors, with fucking Gordon Ramsey shouting at people worldwide, with Sean Connery in every other thing, with Brave's Merida as a fucking Disney princess- what human being could possibly be in that culture and not know what a Scottish accent sounds like? A stupid one. So assuming that someone doesn't know it would be calling your readers stupid. So you know they know. And if you thought they were too stupid to know, you'd have to think that they were too stupid to read, which means that they'd already be having difficulty; so you give them the added difficulty of decoding a dialogue? That's just evil. It has nothing to do with nationalism, you're just being a dick at that point. We live in the google age. Maybe in the 70s or whenever Trainspotting came out that was something I could see someone thinking (tho they'd still be mistaken) but today that's just plain mean. There's no valid reason to do it.

 

[CandiCame]

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/7e/7d/8e/7e7d8eb523f50588e53e53755a10f638.jpg

 

[bronzeage]

Having just had a story thrown back to me for numerous spelling mistakes (despite making the editors aware of what I'd done) I wondered if there is any way I can imitate a, say, French national by using phonetic spelling. Eg a French speaker would pronounce an I or a Y as 'ee', so 'Sorry' would become 'Sorree' and 'Mister' becomes 'Meester' etc. I think this adds to the enjoyment, and makes the dialogue more realistic. Another example would be the German 'w' which is always pronounced 'v' and the 've' in 'have' becomes 'f' eg 've haf vays of making you spell. I did a workaround, but didn't get the effect I wanted.

Put your Frenchman's dialogue in standard English spelling and add this line: "Your French accent makes me hot," she said. "Let's fuck."

 

[MNGuy]

Yeah, just mention the character has an accent and let the reader use their http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view5/2084577/spongebob-imagination-o.gif

 

[oggbashan]

If you are trying to show that someone speaks differently from others in the story, a few hints are enough.

I try to be subtle. In my story 'The Minibus' with a Welsh character I just add a few sentence structures. In one of my Flawed Red Silk stories 'Not A Woman' I baldly stated: (Many of the conversations in this chapter should be in colloquial French but are shown in English. They are not a translation but a re-telling in English).

In Golem, I gave a German Professor slightly odd sentence constructions.

Quote from Golem. Which is the German Professor?

"And you? How tall you are?"

"Five foot six."

Actually I'm five foot five in bare feet to Elaine's six feet but I can dream, can't I?

"And weigh you?"

"One hundred and twenty pounds."

"So you want woman about six foot six inches tall one hundred seventy pounds weigh?"


Attempting to produce a whole story in regional dialect, or accent, is unreadable. Rudyard Kipling's Indian Army slang is appalling and inaccurate as many of his contemporaries pointed out. No soldiers ever spoke as Kipling wrote their dialogue.

 

[Kitty]

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/7e/7d/8e/7e7d8eb523f50588e53e53755a10f638.jpg

LMAO I loved that. Kelly Macdonald the voice, was in Trainspotting. Recogniiize? She was the one Ewan McG liked.

 

[Kitty]

Who the hell in this day and age, with so many Scottish actors, with fucking Gordon Ramsey shouting at people worldwide, with Sean Connery in every other thing, with Brave's Merida as a fucking Disney princess- what human being could possibly be in that culture and not know what a Scottish accent sounds like? A stupid one. S

Those aren't common lower class accents. It's called being creative, why are you indignant?

And not everyone is keen to just read in a Scottish accent. You might be so smart and aware of the accent where you just imagine it yourself, but not everyone does. As I said, he didn't do it throughout, it was just to create the tone and idea. I don't get the anger towards it. No one is insulting anyone for being briefly demonstrative of accent.

That's like saying if someone decided to write a novel or screenplay

about the Middle Ages

not to use thou or ye or something. "Because we know how they speak in the Middle Ages. Let's just imagine it for ourselves."

Or a Biblical movie

using Archaic language, as even Passion of the Christ did; Jim C spoke in the native language, as well as others, "Lucifer" did. I mean...

ugh. How can you get mad at this? lol It's called setting the tone, and being creative.

 

[grumpyg]

Having just had a story thrown back to me for numerous spelling mistakes (despite making the editors aware of what I'd done) I wondered if there is any way I can imitate a, say, French national by using phonetic spelling. Eg a French speaker would pronounce an I or a Y as 'ee', so 'Sorry' would become 'Sorree' and 'Mister' becomes 'Meester' etc. I think this adds to the enjoyment, and makes the dialogue more realistic. Another example would be the German 'w' which is always pronounced 'v' and the 've' in 'have' becomes 'f' eg 've haf vays of making you spell. I did a workaround, but didn't get the effect I wanted.

Thanks everyone. Though the replies tend to wander slightly there are some very valid points - many of which I hadn't considered. I'll keep tabs on this thread, to remind me in future. Personally I love the variety of accents, reginal dialects, and in particuar the French version of the English language. (franglais). I do realise however that it makes reading a but more difficult. Thanks again!!!

 

[rosco rathbone]

Read Cormac McCarthy's early (pre All the Pretty Horses) work for a master class in the light touch with dialect.