Music changes over time

[Balladeer08]

I found a YouTube video with 500 songs from the early 60's. I could sing along with 350+, these were the songs of my childhood. It is disturbing how many of them now sound like songs about child molestation, stalking, etc. They were perfectly acceptable, innocent, popular songs back then.

The lens of time has changed the focus.

I've been bouncing between OMG and hysterical laughter.

Anybody else ever suddenly hear old songs change?

 

[CandiCame]

I think that was just because you were little. The song didn't change, you were suddenly able to understand the subtext. I remember I had a friend who had grown up in a very sheltered, religious home and he was at my house. I was doing something and absentmindedly singing "Pink" by... Aerosmith? I think? Some band my mom likes that I grew up on. And he was like, "That's such a stupid song. I've always hated that song. No one cares what your favorite color is."

I stopped and looked at him. Trying to find out if a person could actually be that naive. Then I told him. When he found out that pink was a euphemism for pussy he freaked the fuck out. Like THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING.

 

[Noor]

This is why lyrics can be a bad thing.

Then there are nicknames like Jellyroll Martin

 

[Balladeer08]

I think that was just because you were little. The song didn't change, you were suddenly able to understand the subtext. I remember I had a friend who had grown up in a very sheltered, religious home and he was at my house. I was doing something and absentmindedly singing "Pink" by... Aerosmith? I think? Some band my mom likes that I grew up on. And he was like, "That's such a stupid song. I've always hated that song. No one cares what your favorite color is."

I stopped and looked at him. Trying to find out if a person could actually be that naive. Then I told him. When he found out that pink was a euphemism for pussy he freaked the fuck out. Like THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING.

Take, for example:

I will follow him.
Follow him wherever he may go.
There isn't an ocean so deep
a mountain so high it can keep
keep me away.



In this 60's, this came off as a song about undying love, devotion, loyalty.

Now she sounds like a complete whack-job of a stalker.


And have you ever heard "Go Away, Little Girl"? Wow.

 

[Bidin~Time]

Take, for example:

I will follow him.
Follow him wherever he may go.
There isn't an ocean so deep
a mountain so high it can keep
keep me away.



In this 60's, this came off as a song about undying love, devotion, loyalty.

Now she sounds like a complete whack-job of a stalker.


And have you ever heard "Go Away, Little Girl"? Wow.

eek that one sounds especially bad using today's standards

 

[CandiCame]

Take, for example:

I will follow him.
Follow him wherever he may go.
There isn't an ocean so deep
a mountain so high it can keep
keep me away.



In this 60's, this came off as a song about undying love, devotion, loyalty.

Now she sounds like a complete whack-job of a stalker.


And have you ever heard "Go Away, Little Girl"? Wow.

My point is, it was always stalkery. You just didn't see it.

Edit: There are songs that people just don't think about. That Christmas song where that dude's obviously trying to rape that chick? And is really obvious about it. I never heard it as a kid so it must be pretty recent but the chick's like, "Yeah, I'm gonna leave, because you're creepy" and he's like, "The hell you are. You're staying right here to suck my dick whether you want to or not." And the entire audience is like, "Dude. She needs to get the fuck away from you."

I have no idea who sings it or anything, but it came on a lot at Christmas in stores and shit and I know a bunch of parents complained to the Wal-Mart up here to stop playing it because what the actual fuck? Why does that song exist? Why would you record a Christmas song about date-rape? Someone thought that was ok to play in public? I get if you're into rape play or non-con you might play it at your house but it's /weird/ that it's Christmas themed.

 

[Balladeer08]

My point is, it was always stalkery. You just didn't see it.

There was no stalkery (is that a word?)in the modern sense during the 60s, the concept didn't exist. The only stalking that went on was during deer hunting season.

 

[Balladeer08]

My point is, it was always stalkery. You just didn't see it.

Edit: There are songs that people just don't think about. That Christmas song where that dude's obviously trying to rape that chick? And is really obvious about it. I never heard it as a kid so it must be pretty recent but the chick's like, "Yeah, I'm gonna leave, because you're creepy" and he's like, "The hell you are. You're staying right here to suck my dick whether you want to or not." And the entire audience is like, "Dude. She needs to get the fuck away from you."

I have no idea who sings it or anything, but it came on a lot at Christmas in stores and shit and I know a bunch of parents complained to the Wal-Mart up here to stop playing it because what the actual fuck? Why does that song exist? Why would you record a Christmas song about date-rape? Someone thought that was ok to play in public? I get if you're into rape play or non-con you might play it at your house but it's /weird/ that it's Christmas themed.

Are you talking about "Baby It's Cold Outside"? That was another 50's/60's song. Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin, Sammy Davis Jr. all recorded versions of it. It doesn't come off the same way today.

 

[CandiCame]

Why were there so many songs about stalkers in the 60s?

That one where the dude is stalking a fucking little kid. And is like, "You better run, young girl!" Like... again. I get you got the pedo stalking going on but why would you write a song about it and publish it?

And then the one that Sabrina covered that was apparently an old song that is just fucking... insane. "I'm going to drive by your house, see who's hanging out. I'm gonna find you. I'm gonna getcha getch getcha."

And the one from that Stephen King movie I also think was a cover of an older song. The "Every step you make, every breath you take, I'll be watching you!"

 

[CandiCame]

Are you talking about "Baby It's Cold Outside"? That was another 50's/60's song. Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin, Sammy Davis Jr. all recorded versions of it. It doesn't come off the same way today.

There's no way that was ever about anything other than rape. Again, it's not the song that changed, it's your reaction to it. As you mature you get smarter and are able to make more connections. But that's not subtle at all. It's just a "No, I've trapped you here. You're fucked." The lyrics are pretty explicit.

Edit: I didn't complain tho. I used it as a teaching experience. Not that Bitesize is old enough to give a shit, but it's an opportunity to say things like, "If someone ever tries to trap you against your will, you punch him right in the face and you run into the snow and if you don't think it's safe to drive you call daddy to come and get you." And I feel like more parents should do that. Instead of trying to censor songs and whatnot. Like I admit that it's weird. It's a weird song. But I'm very anti-censorship. Because I think that she needs to know that date-rape is a thing or she won't know how to protect herself from it.

 

[CandiCame]

There was no stalkery (is that a word?)in the modern sense during the 60s, the concept didn't exist. The only stalking that went on was during deer hunting season.

Jesus Christ you were a naive child. That's... adorable. But you're super lucky you didn't get kidnapped. Stalkers have existed as long as humans have existed.

 

[Balladeer08]

There's no way that was ever about anything other than rape. Again, it's not the song that changed, it's your reaction to it. As you mature you get smarter and are able to make more connections. But that's not subtle at all. It's just a "No, I've trapped you here. You're fucked." The lyrics are pretty explicit.

If you want to believe that major stars sang a song about rape, who am I to deny you your delusions?

Reality is optional.

 

[CandiCame]

If you want to believe that major stars sang a song about rape, who am I to deny you your delusions?

Reality is optional.

You... don't know much about the rat pack's lives do you? They had a lot of inspiration for songs like that. And a society that had not yet had second wave feminism. Reality doesn't seem to be something you concerned yourself with.

 

[Bidin~Time]

Jesus Christ you were a naive child. That's... adorable. But you're super lucky you didn't get kidnapped. Stalkers have existed as long as humans have existed.

Candi, the mistake you are making is attributing traits of today's culture to the culture of 50/60 yrs ago.

It was a different day and time. For instance, the hubs and i were discussing old TV shows just last night. Most are not popular with the 20-something crowd because they don't understand the language used. Sure it's the same language spoken today, but the nuances, and in particular, the slang, and regional sayings have changed or completely died out; making those old television shows completely irrelevant and foreign to today's youth.

 

[CandiCame]

Candi, the mistake you are making is attributing traits of today's culture to the culture of 50/60 yrs ago.

It was a different day and time. For instance, the hubs and i were discussing old TV shows just last night. Most are not popular with the 20-something crowd because they don't understand the language used. Sure it's the same language spoken today, but the nuances, and in particular, the slang, and regional sayings have changed or completely died out; making those old television shows completely irrelevant and foreign to today's youth.

I do understand that. I'm not learning disabled. I don't understand why you would think I wouldn't? That's not applicable to the lyrics I'm referring to. "You can't go" means the same thing today that it meant in the 60s. I'm not talking about "groovy" changing meaning from "cool" to "trippy" or gay going from "contented" to homosexual. If you'd read my other posts you'd actually know that I studied linguistics in my extra classes in college and actually had some linguistics research published (about Appalachian regional dialects being closer to Elizabethan English than modern English in England and what that meant for actors in Shakspearian plays; puns that were lost and the like.) What he's saying has nothing to do with those cultural linguistic changes.

Edit: In fact, I mentioned the cultural influence and it actually works, in this case, in the opposite of what you've mentioned. Because they lived in a pre-second wave feminist society, there wasn't a good way to call them on their rapeyness, because date rape and domestic violence weren't considered major social problems by the more gendered society. That's actually mentioned by some of Frank Sinatra's real life rape victims. Susan Murphy, for example, talks about how she had no belief that she could get help, because the law wouldn't consider what he did an actual crime. That doesn't mean that it wasn't rapey, it means what I already said: That people were more naive about rape.

 

[Balladeer08]

Candi, you never confirmed we are talking about the same song, Baby It's Cold Outside. You're saying some things that are not in the lyrics to that song.

 

[CandiCame]

Candi, you never confirmed we are talking about the same song, Baby It's Cold Outside. You're saying some things that are not in the lyrics to that song.

What did I say that wasn't in the song?

Here are the lyrics.

I really can't stay - Baby it's cold outside
I've got to go away - Baby it's cold outside
This evening has been - Been hoping that you'd drop in
So very nice - I'll hold your hands, they're just like ice
My mother will start to worry - Beautiful, what's your hurry
My father will be pacing the floor - Listen to the fireplace roar
So really I'd better scurry - Beautiful, please don't hurry
Well Maybe just a half a drink more - Put some records on while I pour

The neighbors might think - Baby, it's bad out there
Say, what's in this drink - No cabs to be had out there
I wish I knew how - Your eyes are like starlight now
To break this spell - I'll take your hat, your hair looks swell
I ought to say no, no, no, sir - Mind if I move a little closer
At least I'm gonna say that I tried - What's the sense in hurting my pride
I really can't stay - Baby don't hold out
Ahh, but it's cold outside

C'mon baby

I simply must go - Baby, it's cold outside
The answer is no - Ooh baby, it's cold outside
This welcome has been - I'm lucky that you dropped in
So nice and warm -- Look out the window at that storm
My sister will be suspicious - Man, your lips look so delicious
My brother will be there at the door - Waves upon a tropical shore
My maiden aunt's mind is vicious - Gosh your lips look delicious
Well maybe just a cigarette more - Never such a blizzard before

I've got to get home - Oh, baby, you'll freeze out there
Say, lend me your coat - It's up to your knees out there
You've really been grand - Your eyes are like starlight now
But don't you see - How can you do this thing to me
There's bound to be talk tomorrow - Making my life long sorrow
At least there will be plenty implied - If you caught pneumonia and died
I really can't stay - Get over that old out
Ahh, but it's cold outside

Baby it's cold outside

As you can see, not only does he trap her, he drugs her. "What's in this drink? I wish I knew how to break this spell." There's not any contention about that. This is what I mean about you being naive. This is one of those songs you'll have to add to your list, I guess. I didn't know it was that old, but that explains a lot.

Edit: It's not even a rape that rape apologists can apologize for. There's no implied consent. She strait up says, "My answer is no".

 

[Balladeer08]

What did I say that wasn't in the song?

Here are the lyrics.

I really can't stay - Baby it's cold outside
I've got to go away - Baby it's cold outside
This evening has been - Been hoping that you'd drop in
So very nice - I'll hold your hands, they're just like ice

My mother will start to worry - Beautiful, what's your hurry?
Father will be pacing the floor - Listen to the fireplace roar
So really I'd better scurry - Beautiful, please don't hurry
Maybe just a half a drink more - Put some records on while I pour

The neighbors might think - Baby, it's bad out there
Say, what's in this drink? - No cabs to be had out there
I wish I knew how - Your eyes are like starlight now
To break this spell - I'll take your hat, your hair looks swell

I ought to say no, no, no - Mind if I move in closer?
At least I'm gonna say that I tried - What's the sense in hurting my pride?
I really can't stay - Baby don't hold out
Ah, but it's cold outside

I've got to get home - Oh, baby, you'll freeze out there
Say, lend me your coat - It's up to your knees out there
You've really been grand - Thrill when you touch my hand
Why don't you see - How can you do this thing to me?

There's bound to be talk tomorrow - Think of my life long sorrow
At least there will be plenty implied - If you caught pneumonia and died
I really can't stay - Get over that hold out
Ah, but it's cold outside
Oh, baby, it's cold outside
Oh, baby, it's cold outside


As you can see, not only does he trap her, he drugs her. "What's in this drink? I wish I knew how to break this spell." There's not any contention about that. This is what I mean about you being naive. This is one of those songs you'll have to add to your list, I guess. I didn't know it was that old, but that explains a lot.

Edit: It's not even a rape that rape apologists can apologize for. There's no implied consent. She strait up says, "My answer is no".

What phrase says trap, rather than persuade?

"What's in this drink?" would have been a question as to whether it was a double, what alcohol-content was the liquor.

She says "I ought to say no, no, no." That's not saying no. That's being indecisive. I don't find "My answer is no." in there.

The song sounds like hell these days, but it didn't back then.

 

[CandiCame]

What phrase says trap, rather than persuade?

"What's in this drink?" would have been a question as to whether it was a double, what alcohol-content was the liquor.

She says "I ought to say no, no, no." That's not saying no. That's being indecisive. I don't find "My answer is no." in there.

The song sounds like hell these days, but it didn't back then.

Yes, it did. Again, the song hasn't changed. Your perception has. Now that you've told me Sinatra wrote it, that makes a lot of sense, since he was an accused rapist and had quite a few rapey lyrics.

You... don't seem to know that rape by coersion is a thing. And always has been. But it has. Anything other than an enthusiastic yes is a no. If you have to spend an entire song drugging and trapping someone emotionally, if not physically, you're still a rapist. What is it with people on this site, and only this site, pretending they don't know what rape is? Are you all in fucking congress or someshit?

Edit: I mean you can google this song and get confirmation from lyricists that it is and always has been about rape. Don't take my word for it. But you might also want to study up on what rape actually is, because you don't seem to know. Tripping or guilting someone into sleeping with you is rape.

 

[Mike_Yates]

Music was at it's very best in the 70's and 80's IMHO.

Gimmie Shelter, Rolling Stones!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJDnJ0vXUgw

 

[Balladeer08]

Yes, it did. Again, the song hasn't changed. Your perception has. Now that you've told me Sinatra wrote it, that makes a lot of sense, since he was an accused rapist and had quite a few rapey lyrics.

You... don't seem to know that rape by coersion is a thing. And always has been. But it has. Anything other than an enthusiastic yes is a no. If you have to spend an entire song drugging and trapping someone emotionally, if not physically, you're still a rapist. What is it with people on this site, and only this site, pretending they don't know what rape is? Are you all in fucking congress or someshit?

Edit: I mean you can google this song and get confirmation from lyricists that it is and always has been about rape. Don't take my word for it. But you might also want to study up on what rape actually is, because you don't seem to know. Tripping or guilting someone into sleeping with you is rape.

I didn't say Sinatra wrote it, I said he and others did a cover version of it.

Somehow I doubt your definition of rape is the same one in the statutes. You seem to have a chip on your shoulder.

And yes, the perception has changed, that is what this thread is about. The songs that used to sound fine now take on creepy overtones, to put it mildly.

How old were you in the early 60's? I get the feeling you weren't there.

 

[Mike_Yates]

Sympathy For The Devil

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBecM3CQVD8

 

[CandiCame]

Music was at it's very best in the 70's and 80's IMHO.

Most of today's music is just gawd awful!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJDnJ0vXUgw

I'm more into the 80s, because my mom was one of those 80s rocker chicks. I was this close to being named "Tommy" after the Tommy who used to work at the docks. The one fucking Gina. Who never backs down. Who holds on to what he's got, regardless of it he makes it not, whatwith having each other, and that being a lot. Because they've got love, and can therefore give it a shot.

Edit: Of course I'm also a redneck and I kinda like my grandparent's music. I like Loretta Lynn and Dolly Parton and Kenny Rogers stuff too. Which my friends find eclectic. I make a mix tape and it goes from "Fist City" to "Happiness in Slavery" to "Phantom Lord" to "Music of the Night" and people won't let me make mix tapes anymore...

 

[Bidin~Time]

I do understand that. I'm not learning disabled. I don't understand why you would think I wouldn't? That's not applicable to the lyrics I'm referring to. "You can't go" means the same thing today that it meant in the 60s. I'm not talking about "groovy" changing meaning from "cool" to "trippy" or gay going from "contented" to homosexual. If you'd read my other posts you'd actually know that I studied linguistics in my extra classes in college and actually had some linguistics research published (about Appalachian regional dialects being closer to Elizabethan English than modern English in England and what that meant for actors in Shakspearian plays; puns that were lost and the like.) What he's saying has nothing to do with those cultural linguistic changes.

First of all, I never said or even implied, I thought you were learning disabled. I swear, the propensity of young people to use the "I'm not STUPID you know" line annoys the fuck all out of me. If I thought you were stupid, or learning impaired I wouldn't give you the time of day.


If you look at the lyrics, the woman actually wants to stay with the fella. But she's all too aware what spending too much time alone with a man in his home will do to her reputation. A woman's reputation in that day and age was to be guarded and protected. To be careless with such a delicate concept would compromise her ability to marry well, devalue her social standing, and, depending upon the severity of the infraction, severely limit her social circle(s).

The man, on the other hand, is tempting her, testing her resolve. Yes, he is plying her with drinks, but "good girls" didn't drink to excess in those days. That she questions what is in the drink speaks to her "good girl" status, implying she is only vaguely familiar with alcohol. The implied necking and petting adds to the level of temptation for her to defy the social norms of the day and spend the night. He also implies the weather being horrible (no taxi to be found) will give her a convenient explanation that might be good enough to save her reputation.

It's a dance played out thousands of times back in the day when sex was not a recreational activity, and while I'm not suggesting couples didn't have sex, I am suggesting their level of discretion was nothing short of meticulous obsession.

 

[CandiCame]

First of all, I never said or even implied, I thought you were learning disabled. I swear, the propensity of young people to use the "I'm not STUPID you know" line annoys the fuck all out of me. If I thought you were stupid, or learning impaired I wouldn't give you the time of day.


If you look at the lyrics, the woman actually wants to stay with the fella. But she's all too aware what spending too much time alone with a man in his home will do to her reputation. A woman's reputation in that day and age was to be guarded and protected. To be careless with such a delicate concept would compromise her ability to marry well, devalue her social standing, and, depending upon the severity of the infraction, severely limit her social circle(s).

The man, on the other hand, is tempting her, testing her resolve. Yes, he is plying her with drinks, but "good girls" didn't drink to excess in those days. That she questions what is in the drink speaks to her "good girl" status, implying she is only vaguely familiar with alcohol. The implied necking and petting adds to the level of temptation for her to defy the social norms of the day and spend the night. He also implies the weather being horrible (no taxi to be found) will give her a convenient explanation that might be good enough to save her reputation.

It's a dance played out thousands of times back in the day when sex was not a recreational activity, and while I'm not suggesting couples didn't have sex, I am suggesting their level of discretion was nothing short of meticulous obsession.

Her reason doesn't matter. She turned him down because of her reputation. That's fine. Him not respecting that is what makes him a rapist. Again, I've only ever heard any arguments about this on this site. This is not a difficult concept.

And you suggesting that I didn't know something that obvious, something that is explicity stated in the lyrics is calling me stupid. Perhaps people aren't saying that to you because they're oversensitive. Perhaps you call people stupid more often than you think you do.