Study: Your All-electric Car May Not Be So Green

[miles]

WASHINGTON (AP) -- People buying all-electric cars where coal supplies the power may think they are helping the environment. But a new study says those plug-in vehicles can be making the air dirtier and worsening global warming.

Ethanol isn't so green, either.

Study co-author Julian Marshall, an engineering professor at the University of Minnesota, said it is hard to beat gasoline for public and environmental health. The key is where the electricity comes from. If it comes from coal, the electric cars produce 3.6 times more soot and smog deaths than gas.

Hybrids and diesels are cleaner than gas. All-electric cars where the power comes from natural gas, solar, or wind are the cleanest of all.

The study was published Monday by the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories

 

[PoppingTom]

So you need studies to realize that coal is a smoker and causes global warming though you don't believe in it?

 

[Lord Pmann]

Uh, is this study saying that electricity provided from the coal power plants is more harmful than the gasoline used to make the care run? I think that's a silly statement. Most coal plants right now use scrubbers and are relatively clean.

I have a hard time believing that the efficiency and cleanliness of a coal power plant's electrical production is worse than a gasoline engine.

 

[PoppingTom]

I have a hard time believing that the efficiency and cleanliness of a coal power plant's electrical production is worse than a gasoline engine.

Well if the coal power plants are in the same shape as the railways - maybe!

 

[Sean Renaud]

WASHINGTON (AP) -- People buying all-electric cars where coal supplies the power may think they are helping the environment. But a new study says those plug-in vehicles can be making the air dirtier and worsening global warming.

Ethanol isn't so green, either.

Study co-author Julian Marshall, an engineering professor at the University of Minnesota, said it is hard to beat gasoline for public and environmental health. The key is where the electricity comes from. If it comes from coal, the electric cars produce 3.6 times more soot and smog deaths than gas.

Hybrids and diesels are cleaner than gas. All-electric cars where the power comes from natural gas, solar, or wind are the cleanest of all.

The study was published Monday by the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories

All the more reason to continue making coal cleaner where it's necessary and replacing it with solar and wind where possible. It should be illegal in 2015 to sell a house that doesn't have built in solar in say the majority of the South West.

 

[Ajax_Prime]

Another angle that they have NO clue about....

At least a fifth of the natural gas used to run a gas fired electrical plant is a direct result of oil drilling. Nobody drills for natural gas any longer.

I find the look on their faces when you tell them that quite funny.

 

[Ajax_Prime]

Most coal plants right now use scrubbers and are relatively clean.

18 gigawatts of coal power is going to be retired by the end of 2015, because it is not clean enough....

 

[ms_ann_thrope]

This one is:

http://www.politusic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/mazda-Demio-electric-car.jpg

 

[Sean Renaud]

18 gigawatts of coal power is going to be retired by the end of 2015, because it is not clean enough....

Fuck yeah!

 

[Que]

Yes!! Higher utility rates for the poor and the elderly on fixed income.

Let those bastards choose between food and heating now that we encouraged the switch to "clean and efficient" electricity.

/sarcasm

 

[phrodeau]

No shit. So ride a bike when you can.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Yes!! Higher utility rates for the poor and the elderly on fixed income.

Let those bastards choose between food and heating now that we encouraged the switch to "clean and efficient" electricity.

/sarcasm

I'll take my chances happily and if need be raise taxes to give them what they need. It's not complicated.

 

[Que]

I'll take my chances happily and if need be raise taxes to give them what they need. It's not complicated.

Not at all for every unintended consequence there is always yet another government program (with unintended consequences) to fix that, and a government program to fix the unintended consequences of that fix.

By the way, California energy policy is already as you suggest with subsidies for the poor, raising the cost of energy on manufacturers, making it even more worthwhile to abandon California, which will further erode your tax base and require even more dodgy accounting to claim the budget is fixed.

No to worry. Browns budget dodge by not properly funding pensions will only result in pension defaults, just raise taxes again to cover all of those promises as those promises come due.

 

[Ishmael]

Any one noticed that SR's solution to EVERY problem is to raise taxes?

Ishmael

 

[Que]

Any one noticed that SR's solution to EVERY problem is to raise taxes?

Ishmael

Well, allegedly it worked in California. Just look how good the (claimed) budget numbers worked.

I haven't checked lately, how is that millionaires tax working out in France?

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

WASHINGTON (AP) -- People buying all-electric cars where coal supplies the power may think they are helping the environment. But a new study says those plug-in vehicles can be making the air dirtier and worsening global warming.

Ethanol isn't so green, either.

Study co-author Julian Marshall, an engineering professor at the University of Minnesota, said it is hard to beat gasoline for public and environmental health. The key is where the electricity comes from. If it comes from coal, the electric cars produce 3.6 times more soot and smog deaths than gas.

Hybrids and diesels are cleaner than gas. All-electric cars where the power comes from natural gas, solar, or wind are the cleanest of all.

The study was published Monday by the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories

I think walking or riding a bike would be healthier.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Not at all for every unintended consequence there is always yet another government program (with unintended consequences) to fix that, and a government program to fix the unintended consequences of that fix.

By the way, California energy policy is already as you suggest with subsidies for the poor, raising the cost of energy on manufacturers, making it even more worthwhile to abandon California, which will further erode your tax base and require even more dodgy accounting to claim the budget is fixed.

No to worry. Browns budget dodge by not properly funding pensions will only result in pension defaults, just raise taxes again to cover all of those promises as those promises come due.

Yeah, we deregulated a decade or so back. Turned out not keeping the government boot on the necks of big business wasn't perfect, but over all I don't mind our set up at all.

We'll see, everything I've read on Brown's budget is that we got ourselves a surplus, so we'll see if this pension default happens but I'm not expecting it. I'm just pissed that like Elizabeth Warren running the man for President is most likely a non-starter.

Any one noticed that SR's solution to EVERY problem is to raise taxes?

Ishmael

Turns out it's a pretty damn good fix all. It's like fire, I've yet to come across a problem that can't be solved with sufficient amounts of fire.

 

[Que]

I think walking or riding a bike would be healthier.

That is hard to fuel on a vegan diet, and cows cause global warming.

Also apparently your plan would leave millions in places like Phoenix and LA without a job. Hard to make the 30-40 mile each-way commute on a bike.

One of the two parents could move closer to their work, but why do you want to make the woman stay home? Obviously she would have to quit because she only makes 77 cents on the dollar. Why do you want women barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, when they could just by a Geo Metro and have an actual life?

 

[Ishmael]

Well, allegedly it worked in California. Just look how good the (claimed) budget numbers worked.

I haven't checked lately, how is that millionaires tax working out in France?

Not so well in France as it turns out.

As far as CA. goes, my son is in Sacramento this week helping yet another Corp. ease the move of its headquarters to TX. That's the 4th this year.

Ishmael

 

[Sean Renaud]

That is hard to fuel on a vegan diet, and cows cause global warming.

Also apparently your plan would leave millions in places like Phoenix and LA without a job. Hard to make the 30-40 mile each-way commute on a bike.

One of the two parents could move closer to their work, but why do you want to make the woman stay home? Obviously she would have to quit because she only makes 77 cents on the dollar. Why do you want women barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, when they could just by a Geo Metro and have an actual life?

Nobody is talking about a Vegan diet though, not that riding bikes is viable for a lot of us for a lot of stuff. I guess I could shop riding my bike but I couldn't do my job. Not no way not no how.

Nor is anybody saying the family should split up. This is standard right wing derp and laid on extra thick. Do BETTER isn't the same as don't do. We know we can get MORE solar and more wind. (Before you bring up wind generators kill birds, windows kill so many more and nobody is advocating we should should build screens and nets outside our windows or do anything about that problem. Republicans care because it "forces" a choice.) Every bit of energy we can create in more efficient manners will help.

Nobody is talking about Vegan, but given America's weight problems I suspect that eating say 10% less meat and replacing it with something less energy intensive (and without methane farts) wouldn't kill us and like the end of Supersizing at McDonalds even if the government came down from on high (which again nobody is talking about) we'd gripe for two years and then realize that it wasn't a big deal.

 

[Que]

Yeah, we deregulated a decade or so back. Turned out not keeping the government boot on the necks of big business wasn't perfect, but over all I don't mind our set up at all.

We'll see, everything I've read on Brown's budget is that we got ourselves a surplus, so we'll see if this pension default happens but I'm not expecting it. I'm just pissed that like Elizabeth Warren running the man for President is most likely a non-starter.



Turns out it's a pretty damn good fix all. It's like fire, I've yet to come across a problem that can't be solved with sufficient amounts of fire.

Let's expand your reading list, shall we?

California has a newfound “surplus” thanks to outrageous budget gimmicks that simply ignore state debt. Rather than making the necessary payments into the state pension fund, California, as well as many other states, skip this step and claim to have a balanced budget..

Governor Brown may believe that the budget "reflects tough choices," but the truth is that tough choices are exactly what budget gimmicks are designed to avoid. By placing massive cuts to education at the mercy of the voters' willingness to approve higher taxes, officials are in a perfect situation to avoid taking responsibility for politically troublesome cuts. By relying on revenues that might not materialize, leaders may blame the slow economy when reality does not meet their expectations. Until California radically reforms its entire budget process, nothing will stop future legislators or governors from repeating these same mistakes.

Read more: http://www.statebudgetsolutions.org...budget-is-riddled-with-gimmicks#ixzz3M1MxjpC8

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-06-14/california-lawmakers-pass-96-3-billion-brown-budget.html

“Sadly, the governor was unsuccessful in his efforts to get Democrats to hold the line on new spending,” Conway said. “The majority party is using the budget gimmicks of the past to downplay spending increases. The budget proposal incrementally ramps up welfare payments that will end up costing taxpayers $1 billion annually.”

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/exography-states-use-gimmicks-late-payments-and-other-accounting-tricks-to-meet-balanced-budget-requirements/article/2544142California is by far the biggest offender, with more than $583 billion in underfunded pensions. Four states continued to significantly underfund required pension payments in 2013: California, Illinois, New Jersey and New York, SBS research shows.

From PEW Charitable Trusts:

• Gimmick #1: Putting off payments
  
• Gimmick #2: Accelerating revenue
  
• Gimmick #3: Using temporary money for recurring expenses
  
• Gimmick #4: Counting on savings that aren't likely to materialize
  
• Gimmick #5: Counting on revenue that isn't likely to materialize

Full explanation: http://www.pewtrusts.org/en/researc...icks-explained-five-ways-states-hide-deficits

Governing.com: State's Stupid Budget Tricks

Washington Post: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/07/17/states-are-using-gimmicks-to-hide-their-budget-woes-but-their-fiscal-problems-are-here-to-stay/

The short version is that Brown has put of funding schools, robbed the carbon reduction environmental fund, and ignored funding pensions to "balance" the budget. He, like all governors Republican or Democrat has kicked the can down the road. His version is especially cynical. When the school inevitably need money he will then demand money for the schools and the retirees despite the fact that he is the one that shorted them b not making the hard budget reductions.

He knows, even if you do not, that California Taxes cannot be raised above where they are and expect to collect any additional revenue. The turnip is out of blood.

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

That is hard to fuel on a vegan diet, and cows cause global warming.

Also apparently your plan would leave millions in places like Phoenix and LA without a job. Hard to make the 30-40 mile each-way commute on a bike.

One of the two parents could move closer to their work, but why do you want to make the woman stay home? Obviously she would have to quit because she only makes 77 cents on the dollar. Why do you want women barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, when they could just by a Geo Metro and have an actual life?

You're starting to write like Jen, but you're able to maintain your ability to ascribe positions.

 

[Que]

Nobody is talking about a Vegan diet though, not that riding bikes is viable for a lot of us for a lot of stuff. I guess I could shop riding my bike but I couldn't do my job. Not no way not no how.

Nor is anybody saying the family should split up. This is standard right wing derp and laid on extra thick. Do BETTER isn't the same as don't do. We know we can get MORE solar and more wind. (Before you bring up wind generators kill birds, windows kill so many more and nobody is advocating we should should build screens and nets outside our windows or do anything about that problem. Republicans care because it "forces" a choice.) Every bit of energy we can create in more efficient manners will help.

Nobody is talking about Vegan, but given America's weight problems I suspect that eating say 10% less meat and replacing it with something less energy intensive (and without methane farts) wouldn't kill us and like the end of Supersizing at McDonalds even if the government came down from on high (which again nobody is talking about) we'd gripe for two years and then realize that it wasn't a big deal.

Cutting out refined corn products would be a better idea diet wise.

Solar is a pipe dream even if every photon could be caught and transfeered 1-1 into electricity. Every square foot of solar panels is a square foot that has no vegetation to absorb Co2.

Solar and Wind is what? 2-3% and that is with MASSIVE tax subsidies. Good look getting that to 16% by next year.

Fantasy, Science Fiction and Dreams do not generate sufficient energy nor will it in your lifetime. Nuclear could. Maybe.

 

[Sean Renaud]

He knows, even if you do not, that California Taxes cannot be raised above where they are and expect to collect any additional revenue. The turnip is out of blood.

Then it's time to let the nation declare bankruptcy and let come what may. We need more blood.

Also some of those are gimmicks but it seems like some of those were already in place.

But I'm quite confident that like America as a whole the problem isn't a lack of blood it's cowardice.

 

[Que]

Then it's time to let the nation declare bankruptcy and let come what may. We need more blood.

Also some of those are gimmicks but it seems like some of those were already in place.

But I'm quite confident that like America as a whole the problem isn't a lack of blood it's cowardice.

Do think default has no costs? All of those bonds are, for now, investments in such things as pension funds, college endowments, 401Ks, etc.

How do you propose to make those right, to make up for those shortfalls?

There is no magic money. Money has to come from somewhere. Even when ou flat out print it all you are doing is shaving the edges off of every single holder of debt or currency.

Lets say we were on gold. Making everyone turn in their 1 oz gold coins and replace them with 3/4 oz coins does not increase the amount of gold.

Gold doesn't have to be the medium for exchange, but even if it was seashells, declaring tomorrow that each seashell is now worth more or less doesn't make it so.

I glanced at an article yesterday that held the position that we are past the tipping point. Our obligations cannot be repaid.