Does the minimum wage kill jobs?

[Sean Renaud]

You've got something right.

I'm deeply impressed.

Except it's not really correct. Ultimately capital can hold out longer than labor in nearly every case and to a very real extent the pay you get is still set by your peers. Our middle class workers aren't moving up because the people beneath them aren't moving up.

 

[PoppingTom]

Except it's not really correct. Ultimately capital can hold out longer than labor in nearly every case and to a very real extent the pay you get is still set by your peers. Our middle class workers aren't moving up because the people beneath them aren't moving up.

You're right, but I think that's too much social thinking for our lonesome survivor babies. Don't expect too much.

 

[possum123]

Well, it's called a union because its goal is to unite the workers in the fight for higher wages.

Off course, that's too much for you egoistic brick.

If you can get a higher wage without a union - be happy, as long as you've got it.

I have always been able to do so.
The last time I was in a union they stopped me from getting paid better.
They wouldn't let the company give me a promotion.

 

[Sean Renaud]

You're right, but I think that's too much social thinking for our lonesome survivor babies. Don't expect too much.

Is is too much thinking for some. Which is very unfortunate because in the end it kinda fucks us all. But I try not to expect too much. It's just hard to keep from playing the same game they play.

I have always been able to do so.
The last time I was in a union they stopped me from getting paid better.
They wouldn't let the company give me a promotion.

Assuming that's true you were still an exception not the rule. The reality is that we all owe a great deal to unions and the power they once held and we're back to where we were in the Great Depression in a lot of ways.

 

[Sean]

I have always been able to do so.
The last time I was in a union they stopped me from getting paid better.
They wouldn't let the company give me a promotion.

Ah, you're one of those.

 

[PoppingTom]

I have always been able to do so.
The last time I was in a union they stopped me from getting paid better.
They wouldn't let the company give me a promotion.

Because it would destroy the prices. As bad as it is, that your union couldn't compromise in such things (others can), I can understand the position a little bit.

Because you CAN do more. NOW. Others may be unable, because of missing abilities, because of running a family, because they're not that kind of selfish lonesome survivor fighter and rather die than be like that. Maybe one day you'll understand this, if you run a family and miss a lot of these abilities of your youth. TOMORROW.

 

[PoppingTom]

It's just hard to keep from playing the same game they play.

Oh yes, it is.

But real egoists aren't the winner in the long run. Always. You can rely on that.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Oh yes, it is.

But real egoists aren't the winner in the long run. Always. You can rely on that.

I feel like the long run is an extremely long run sort of thing. Like egoists have been winning since the 80's in the US. So if you were born in the say late fifties, early sixties you spent most of your life winning and even if things turn around today you'll be dead before you start losing hard enough to care.

 

[possum123]

Is is too much thinking for some. Which is very unfortunate because in the end it kinda fucks us all. But I try not to expect too much. It's just hard to keep from playing the same game they play.



Assuming that's true you were still an exception not the rule. The reality is that we all owe a great deal to unions and the power they once held and we're back to where we were in the Great Depression in a lot of ways.

At one time the unions were needed.
Then they became powerful and crime ridden.
Now days people do not need them and cannot see giving part of their wages to criminals. Maybe one day they will feel about politicians the same way as they do about unions.

 

[NeverEndingMe]

another union assHat that wears panties. only becomes a man when 'he' outnumbers the other party by 10 to 1


coward pussy

Looks like Jen has a new alt.


Of course that's a buncha crap.. what about all those with degrees out of work, many of whom are "overqualified"?

I've spent nearly 20 years learning and getting better at my trade... because it's not a formal college education there are some, like Jen who think we should work for nothing....never mind the fact that there are very few, if any, eggheads that could even begin to do what I do, or what other skilled tradesman do.


Unfortunately, too many ignorant people have bought into the bs that worker=bad.. labor costs = drag on a company... when in fact, it's often the worker that MAKES that company money.

It started with the right to work crap in the south and has permeated more and more of our society...add to that the more bullshit that America needs to be competitive in the global economy to survive and you have companies exploiting overseas labor at the expense of the American worker...

I agree with Sean, it's unfortunate that we need a minimum wage.. too much greed and unbridled capitalism has left a massive income inequality gap... and for some reason, people on here think that's somehow a good thing.

Idiots.

 

[PoppingTom]

I feel like the long run is an extremely long run sort of thing. Like egoists have been winning since the 80's in the US. So if you were born in the say late fifties, early sixties you spent most of your life winning and even if things turn around today you'll be dead before you start losing hard enough to care.

Well, I see a difference between real egoists and bigots/hypocrites.

Real egoists have no friends.

But there are many bigots out there, just telling a lot of bullshit how they made it out of hard work (remember "The big Lebowski" ? ) while in truth, they've just got luck or are in their own union with their own rules.

Sadly, bigotry can keep you alive and successful in some cases. But it's better if you know what you're fighting for, and understand that it's right. Today like tomorrow.

 

[PoppingTom]

At one time the unions were needed.
Then they became powerful and crime ridden.
Now days people do not need them and cannot see giving part of their wages to criminals.

Unions are still the same unions like yesterday, even if some people in there may have done criminal things. I don't knowe of any.

 

[Sean Renaud]

At one time the unions were needed.
Then they became powerful and crime ridden.
Now days people do not need them and cannot see giving part of their wages to criminals. Maybe one day they will feel about politicians the same way as they do about unions.

They are needed now for the same reasons they were needed before and without them things have steadily gotten worse. Yes now adays people need them, probably more than at any time in the past.

And no we will never feel the same way about politicians, not until we are ready to kneel before a King again.

 

[cowslinger64]

I have always been able to do so.
The last time I was in a union they stopped me from getting paid better.
They wouldn't let the company give me a promotion.

At one time the unions were needed.
Then they became powerful and crime ridden.
Now days people do not need them and cannot see giving part of their wages to criminals. Maybe one day they will feel about politicians the same way as they do about unions.

Callin bullshit on your story.. at the very least, important details of it were left out.


No one ever said unions were perfect, and there have been instances of mafia involvement but nowadays there is too much government involvement for that to happen.

I pay part of my wages for representation. My union leaders bargain wages and benefits for me, they offer protections and arbitration when needed too. I don't always agree with them, but I have the option to get out. This "having" to pay dues is a popular line with the right to work crowd... really all "right to work" is, is the right to work for less. The fact is, non-union labor makes less, have less benefits, protections and worse working conditions. It's no wonder that in the right to work places across the south that they lead in lowest pay, lowest benefits..

I'll trade my 36 dollars a month dues to make twice the money they do.. it's worth it.

I'll add that there are times when companies treat their employees fairly and unions aren't needed there... but those places don't always stay that way and those places are disappearing.

 

[cowslinger64]

another union assHat that wears panties. only becomes a man when 'he' outnumbers the other party by 10 to 1


coward pussy

You just cut and paste your own bullshit, jerry. An original thought would be nice.

You're quite a bore there fatass...

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

At one time the unions were needed.
Then they became powerful and crime ridden.
Now days people do not need them and cannot see giving part of their wages to criminals. Maybe one day they will feel about politicians the same way as they do about unions.

So if you worked for the government you would trust the government?

 

[someoneyouknow]

Their model is different. Each employee handles more product than does one at say, Kmart because they are employing bulk sales. There is far less processing from truck to consumer.

They also employ fewer workers. Their pay and benefits are going to be in line with a similar enterprise that breaks the freight down for individual sales.

This is a case of comparing apples to oranges.

The place that puts out the frozen burgers (from my example above) also pays its fewer employees more money, but that is not evidence of the damage done by forcing a business to raise wages to those who need those entry jobs the most in order to prove that they are worth more money.

Then let us do an apples to apples comparison (though my point still stands):

Costco has roughly 185,000 employees, full and part-time

Sam's Club has roughly 116,000 employees, full and part-time

We know what Costco pays its employees. Sam's Club, not while transparent on this issue, says its pay is comparable to WalMart (it's parent company). Since WalMart pays less than $15/hour, it pays, roughly, 25% less than Costco for the same industry.

In January of this year WalMart announced it was laying off 2,300 workers at Sam's Club (2% of the workforce).

Last year, Costco announced it would be opening 150 stores, worldwide, over the next five years with 55 of stores being in the U.S.

Last year Sam's Club announced it would be on track to open 19-21 new stores with the following year (2014) opening between 17 and 22 stores. Essentially, the same as Costco when you calculate the five year plans.

In 2006, the Harvard Business Review put out a paper comparing/contrasting the two companies. They essentially reiterated the same statistics as above: Costco, though paying more and giving more benefits, is more profitable with fewer stores (at that time) then Sam's Club. Interestingly, despite Sam's Club trying to keep costs low, Costco outshines them in one key area: employee turnover. From the article:

Costco’s practices are clearly more expensive, but they have an offsetting cost-containment effect: Turnover is unusually low, at 17% overall and just 6% after one year’s employment. In contrast, turnover at Wal-Mart is 44% a year, close to the industry average.

http://hbr.org/2006/12/the-high-cost-of-low-wages/ar/pr

The section details the cost of employee turnover and not surprisingly, Sam's Club's costs are significantly higher (using a rough calculation) than Costco's.

So, the point still stands, paying people higher salaries does not automatically kill jobs. If that were the case, then every time the minimum wage has been raised should have seen a corresponding pullback of hiring and/or loss of jobs. That has not happened.

 

[NeverEndingMe]

Except it's not really correct. Ultimately capital can hold out longer than labor in nearly every case and to a very real extent the pay you get is still set by your peers. Our middle class workers aren't moving up because the people beneath them aren't moving up.

FLOD = for the love of DERP

 

[NeverEndingMe]

You just cut and paste your own bullshit, jerry. An original thought would be nice.

You're quite a bore there fatass...

yeah, like you know anything about creating value or wealth?


hey during the winter time ... do you upgrade to tights or pantyhose? don't have to worry about the crotch not fitting, since you are lacking balls

 

[possum123]

Unions are still the same unions like yesterday, even if some people in there may have done criminal things. I don't knowe of any.

I can't speak about unions years ago. They may have been honest. I don't really know.
It doesn't take much investigation to see what unions are today.

 

[possum123]

Callin bullshit on your story.. at the very least, important details of it were left out.


No one ever said unions were perfect, and there have been instances of mafia involvement but nowadays there is too much government involvement for that to happen.

I pay part of my wages for representation. My union leaders bargain wages and benefits for me, they offer protections and arbitration when needed too. I don't always agree with them, but I have the option to get out. This "having" to pay dues is a popular line with the right to work crowd... really all "right to work" is, is the right to work for less. The fact is, non-union labor makes less, have less benefits, protections and worse working conditions. It's no wonder that in the right to work places across the south that they lead in lowest pay, lowest benefits..

I'll trade my 36 dollars a month dues to make twice the money they do.. it's worth it.

I'll add that there are times when companies treat their employees fairly and unions aren't needed there... but those places don't always stay that way and those places are disappearing.

What part of it do you have problems understanding?
If it is the part about the union preventing me from getting a promotion I will explain.
I am very good at the work I do. I went to work at a place that people had to join the union before they could be hired. I joined. When I was there for 6 months they wanted to promote to crew leader. A couple of people who wanted the job ran to the union and complained. According to them a person had to be there for a year before they could be promoted. The union went to the company to stop my promotion.

 

[possum123]

So if you worked for the government you would trust the government?

Hell no.
I did work for the govt. I saw personally how crooked they were.

 

[cowslinger64]

What part of it do you have problems understanding?
If it is the part about the union preventing me from getting a promotion I will explain.
I am very good at the work I do. I went to work at a place that people had to join the union before they could be hired. I joined. When I was there for 6 months they wanted to promote to crew leader. A couple of people who wanted the job ran to the union and complained. According to them a person had to be there for a year before they could be promoted. The union went to the company to stop my promotion.

So they had a rule you didn't like. Why is that a union problem? Everyone has rules to follow, union workers and even non-union workers.

If that's the basis for your union hatred....it's a good thing you got out.

BTW.. the only "problems" I had with your story was that it was devoid of detail.

 

[CNYCarol]

don't use logic, especially on that SeanR as the R stands for Retarded. You have to remember that the pro obama people suffer from some sort of mental defect. they are unable to see the big picture or what these fantasies are...

just look back 50 years and the price of a home vs today....
the price of a car 50 years ago vs today ...

as uncle obama tells mcDonald's people they are worth $15 an hour ... shit will role down hill and in time that burger flipper will have to pay more in rent ... pay more for that CarMax car ....

My point exactly, if the Burger Flipper is suddenly making $15/hr, Everyone elses wages must go up respectively.

The factory worker WAS making $15, but that is suddenly minimum wage, he now claims he is worth more than MW, thus he and everyone else expect more.

 

[RiverKnight]

It doesn't matter what I think. Fox news says it is bad and that is all that matters