Is mysogyny (anti-libertarianism) dead?

[Anita__O_Gasm]

This thread is very serious. I am not posting as a joke. I sincerely want to know if there are any men or women out there who think that a woman's place is in the home, being provided for and taken care of by her husband? Is the art of the womanly-homemaker dead? Is a woman no longer revered for her ability to both nurture, as well as serve?

Is the value of a man now nothing more than the innovations or distruction he can create? What happened to the masculine virile progenitor of this species stepping up and being the sole factor standing between his family and the ever present threat of mortality.

Is it so wrong to think than men should prrotect and provide, while women should nurture and serve?


Disclaimer:
The above allegories are made entirely as hypothetical situations.No statement herein is indicated as a reflection of my own personal beliefs or values. Every postulation made here, is done in the spirit of suggesting a given social paradigm, and opening dialogue in favour or opposition of the suggested social construct. Please, as difficult as it will be for some of the feebler of mind, keep all comments in this thread strictly to discussing whether the man (or dominant in same-sex) should protect and provide for the family, while the female (subservient in same-sex) should be the "home-maker."

ADDENDUM: The OP was written after more than 48 hours without sleep, and was entirely auto-dicted but not read, via cellphone.

 

[seela]

I think it is wrong to think that all women should nurture and all men should provide. Well, I wouldn't go as far as to say it's wrong to think that, but it's wrong to expect that of other people.

If the people in the relationship think that kind of a dynamic is what works for them, then great. But I have serious issues with anyone I'm not involved with coming to me and saying that I should be or do XYZ just because of my gender or preference for not being the big letter in my personal relationship.

 

[Netzach]

Other? I think "who the hell needs a man" is pretty reductive and I won't have that kind of thing put in my mouth. People need people, usually, and people do well with partners usually.

Everyone should know how to make food, clean shit, and kiss boo boos better on their offspring and charges. Because you never know who's going to be hit by a bus. And it makes you a better person, a more rounded person, with a better view of all of humanity. You can't take care of your home without ever being inside it.

Everyone should be able to hold a job within the scope of their abilities and have an ambition beyond their own home too. Because you never know who's going to be hit by a bus. And it makes you a better person, a more rounded person, with a better view of all of humanity. You can't take care of your home without looking outside it.

What's funny to me, is that the people I've met who actually had a somewhat traditional salt of the earth upbringing is that this is actually not that radical. Men knew how to parent and women knew how to drive tractor. Because shit has to get done.

Shit has to get done. That's the only static thing. MOST women will want to do more of the former and MOST men will want to do more of the latter, and most of the reason for that is about 4000 years of mental conditioning that we insist is nature, but isn't. Nature is scrounge around, eat 1/3 meat 2/3 plants and fuck as much as you can possibly fuck. That is a human in their element. But whatever, just because it's conditioning doesn't mean it's not deep and meaningful to those people, as long as they fuck off and stop telling everyone else that they must conform to the same thing.

Going on and on endlessly about the naturalness and normalcy and rightness of this arrangement is not minding your own business, however. When people respond negatively to being told their entire lives that they are freaks outliers and that their way of dividing the shit that has to get done won't work and is a joke, they have every right to have had enough.

What proportion people want to do these things in is really up to them to sort out. If biological determinism makes you happy, whatever. Go for it. But please stop acting like you are a special snowflake flying the face of the mainstream. Because you've got 4000 years of the program on your side.

I've never been truly happy until I became the primary breadwinner and I'm a girl. Who knew. I didn't, actually.

What exactly are you on about with the man as the last ditch between me and mortality? Mortality comes in the form of illness and car accidents, not The Sabre Tooth Tiger, at least in the industrial world. We've been living in cities since Ur - there are specialists for these things. And guns. Guns are cool. If it falls apart to the point where I have to defend myself on that level, I hope I'm toast.

 

[Anita__O_Gasm]

I think it is wrong to think that all women should nurture and all men should provide. Well, I wouldn't go as far as to say it's wrong to think that, but it's wrong to expect that of other people.

If the people in the relationship think that kind of a dynamic is what works for them, then great. But I have serious issues with anyone I'm not involved with coming to me and saying that I should be or do XYZ just because of my gender or preference for not being the big letter in my personal relationship.

OH SO EXTREMELY VALID POINT! I couldn't have said it better myself, and I'm so glad you did!
Subservience is a choice you make to give as a gift to another. Just as taking anothers' life in your hands is a HUGE sacrifice to make, not to be taken on lightly by anyone.

What exactly are you on about with the man as the last ditch between me and mortality? Mortality comes in the form of illness and car accidents, not The Sabre Tooth Tiger, at least in the industrial world. We've been living in cities since Ur - there are specialists for these things. And guns. Guns are cool. If it falls apart to the point where I have to defend myself on that level, I hope I'm toast.

Bro- you nailed it bang-on, what I'm on about. When it all falls apart... I wonder who are going to be the ones who "defend themselves [and familes and loved ones] on that level.In a time far removed from this paradigm, it would have gone without question that the man would protect and provide, and the woman would produce and nurture.

You represent, what I hypothesize is, the predominant mentality of a typical educated and informed, middle to upperclass, independent Western heterosexual male. "when the shit hits the fan, I either want off this rock before it explodes, or I want dead, and QUICK."

When did the role of the male cease to be, "ugh... I get woman. I protect woman. ugh!"

When did the role of the female become one of, "it is now up to me to be vigilant under any and all circumstances, and when the shit does hit the fan, I know I'm gonna have to clean it up alone."



Perhaps humans are not intended to think for so many consecutive hours.... :-O

 

[KoPilot]

Women have always been armed and fought. Since the beginning of time women have been there to fuck up the mammoth, to raid, to fill the ranks. Half of the viking warriors are women, they *just* found out. (Took their heads out of their asses and finally thought to themselves "hm maybe we ought to actually figure out what the bones tell us about this person's sex instead of assuming they had a dick because they were buried with a sword". But nooo, the Valkyries' weapons must've just been for decoration right?)

This "woman stays home and does dishes in pumps" and "men go and smoke cigars down at the firm and get grimdark boners from participating in corporate institutionalized violence" thing is a bourgeoise fantasy that never really happened until society forced it down our collective throats for about 5 minutes and told us that it was always that way.

It's really never been that way. But boy are they good at making you pine for it from the moment you see your first ad.

Misogyny means "contempt for women". And "anti-libertarianism" doesn't even belong in this discussion? (I mean, unless you're educated enough to understand the capitalist and classist implications of patriarchy, which I doubt.) Being "anti-libertarian" basically means that you're a liberal and probably hate Ayn Rand a lot. Has nothing to do with gender.

Couple of questions for you, OP: 1. how do you define "woman", and 2. how do trans and nonbinary people fit into your rosy worldview?

 

[Netzach]

OH SO EXTREMELY VALID POINT! I couldn't have said it better myself, and I'm so glad you did!
Subservience is a choice you make to give as a gift to another. Just as taking anothers' life in your hands is a HUGE sacrifice to make, not to be taken on lightly by anyone.



Bro- you nailed it bang-on, what I'm on about. When it all falls apart... I wonder who are going to be the ones who "defend themselves [and familes and loved ones] on that level.In a time far removed from this paradigm, it would have gone without question that the man would protect and provide, and the woman would produce and nurture.

You represent, what I hypothesize is, the predominant mentality of a typical educated and informed, middle to upperclass, independent Western heterosexual male. "when the shit hits the fan, I either want off this rock before it explodes, or I want dead, and QUICK."

When did the role of the male cease to be, "ugh... I get woman. I protect woman. ugh!"

When did the role of the female become one of, "it is now up to me to be vigilant under any and all circumstances, and when the shit does hit the fan, I know I'm gonna have to clean it up alone."



Perhaps humans are not intended to think for so many consecutive hours.... :-O

I'm a woman. You ignored the entire top half of what I posted, too. Shit has to get done and shit doesn't care who does it.

I don't understand what you're getting at. You want to hear how much better it would be if every man had a steady sword arm, when there are billion dollar drones and robot planes and nukes. That's nuts.

I mean it's as realistic a concern as who would kick Superman's ass in a fight. If you want to believe that your ideal man IS going to be there like Superman when society falls apart, then be my guest and cleave unto your best prospect, but I think you will wind up very disappointed if it ever comes to that.

Seriously, it's going to be the person who has something people WANT in dystopia that's going to do well. Maybe it's a skill, maybe it's land, maybe it's ass. Maybe getting neighbors to like you will be more important than threatening to blow off their heads. People will specialize in about five minutes again, and the minute your have specialization you have left Sparta where everyone is a freaked out fightin' machine. I'm sure I'll be disappointed too, but I can't say I didn't see it coming.

 

[Netzach]

Women have always been armed and fought. Since the beginning of time women have been there to fuck up the mammoth, to raid, to fill the ranks. Half of the viking warriors are women, they *just* found out. (Took their heads out of their asses and finally thought to themselves "hm maybe we ought to actually figure out what the bones tell us about this person's sex instead of assuming they had a dick because they were buried with a sword". But nooo, the Valkyries' weapons must've just been for decoration right?)

This "woman stays home and does dishes in pumps" and "men go and smoke cigars down at the firm and get grimdark boners from participating in corporate institutionalized violence" thing is a bourgeoise fantasy that never really happened until society forced it down our collective throats for about 5 minutes and told us that it was always that way.

It's really never been that way. But boy are they good at making you pine for it from the moment you see your first ad.

Misogyny means "contempt for women". And "anti-libertarianism" doesn't even belong in this discussion? (I mean, unless you're educated enough to understand the capitalist and classist implications of patriarchy, which I doubt.) Being "anti-libertarian" basically means that you're a liberal and probably hate Ayn Rand a lot. Has nothing to do with gender.

Couple of questions for you, OP: 1. how do you define "woman", and 2. how do trans and nonbinary people fit into your rosy worldview?

Bingo. Even taking female warriors out of the equation, this is a class based aspirational fantasy. Women have ALWAYS worked outside the house. Always. Even my 1950's grandmother had a job bookkeeping, with kids and a working husband and nobody thought this was weird. At some point she stopped, but my mother remembers her working.

The majority of women have and continue to slave outside the home. Even in genteel victorian England where women were stuffed into corsets - please. Most women were living the life of female colliers and mill workers.

 

[IrisAlthea]

I see no reason to decide who does what in a relationship on gender.
Like Netzach said, basic competence to deal with life so you can be self reliant is a good thing for anyone.

When it all falls apart... I wonder who are going to be the ones who "defend themselves [and familes and loved ones] on that level.
In a time far removed from this paradigm, it would have gone without question that the man would protect and provide, and the woman would produce and nurture.

When it all falls apart, everyone needs to do whatever they can. That's the way it is and the way it has been for most people most of the time.

 

[KoPilot]

I see no reason to decide who does what in a relationship on gender.
Like Netzach said, basic competence to deal with life so you can be self reliant is a good thing for anyone.

When it all falls apart, everyone needs to do whatever they can. That's the way it is and the way it has been for most people most of the time.

I don't think OP knows the first thing about how subsistence communities actually work.

 

[Netzach]

QUICK."

When did the role of the male cease to be, "ugh... I get woman. I protect woman. ugh!"

Since the invention of agriculture. It's been a while.

When did the role of the female become one of, "it is now up to me to be vigilant under any and all circumstances, and when the shit does hit the fan, I know I'm gonna have to clean it up alone."

Since day 1. Scratch the "alone" part, though. Humans are hardwired to have our homies.

 

[TROLLISH]

It's like vagina appreciation in here today. Most, not all, women are emotionally incapable of performing as well as a man in just about any work related field. The world was a better place when women were barefoot and pregnant, and the man went to work.

Cheers,
The Troll

 

[KoPilot]

Bingo. Even taking female warriors out of the equation, this is a class based aspirational fantasy. Women have ALWAYS worked outside the house. Always. Even my 1950's grandmother had a job bookkeeping, with kids and a working husband and nobody thought this was weird. At some point she stopped, but my mother remembers her working.

The majority of women have and continue to slave outside the home. Even in genteel victorian England where women were stuffed into corsets - please. Most women were living the life of female colliers and mill workers.

My great-grandmother worked her ass off as one of the first female (and brown!) busdrivers in LA in the 30's and 40's. Women weren't just part of the labor movement in the 1800s, they arguably started it. I thought USian history classes were always pretty good at talking about who ended up getting scalped in the textile factories? ˙slɹᴉƃ uǝǝʍʇ :ɹǝʍsu∀ Or are we just conveniently forgetting about all of that for the sake of discussion?

Women in the US labor movement
10 Historical female warriors
Women in the sciences
"Women's work" in the middle ages
"Women's work" in Ancient Egypt

I could go on, but really... read a fucking book, OP.

 

[twister947]

I am at once not smart enough, and too smart, to enter this minefield, but I will offer an anecdote from the safety of the sidelines: the most direct route to conflict with my ex was treating her as an equal. One man, one woman, one marriage...

 

[Anita__O_Gasm]

I am at once not smart enough, and too smart, to enter this minefield, but I will offer an anecdote from the safety of the sidelines: the most direct route to conflict with my ex was treating her as an equal. One man, one woman, one marriage...

Fascinating viewpoint!

How would you feel about being married to a woman who lived to serve your every want and desiren before you knew you wanted or needed?

 

[twister947]

Fascinating viewpoint!

How would you feel about being married to a woman who lived to serve your every want and desiren before you knew you wanted or needed?

That's not for me; a partnership of equals suits me best.

 

[Netzach]

Fascinating viewpoint!

How would you feel about being married to a woman who lived to serve your every want and desiren before you knew you wanted or needed?

I've had a LOT of people, and I mean a LOT of people, male and female offer this to me, insist that they do this for me, and dangle this carrot before me.

And I don't actually believe this exists. There is no free lunch and there is no altruism to this extent. I've never had to work harder than to not lift a finger.

I love Jeeves. But Jeeves was a pro.

 

[Netzach]

I think what bugs me is that it's infantile.

He man misses his mommy being home to wipe his ass when he was single digits.

She misses being sure that her Daddy could beat up any monster.

WHY CAN'T WE JUST GO BACK TO THAT? That wasn't actually the real world, that's why.

 

[Netzach]

I am at once not smart enough, and too smart, to enter this minefield, but I will offer an anecdote from the safety of the sidelines: the most direct route to conflict with my ex was treating her as an equal. One man, one woman, one marriage...

I think this is pretty astute, actually.

 

[KoPilot]

I think what bugs me is that it's infantile.

He man misses his mommy being home to wipe his ass when he was single digits.

She misses being sure that her Daddy could beat up any monster.

WHY CAN'T WE JUST GO BACK TO THAT? That wasn't actually the real world, that's why.

It took pretty much zero critical analysis for me to recall that I fantasized about being besties with a giant boy when I was wee so that I would have someone big and strong to beat the shit out of everyone I didn't like.

I have no qualms about admitting that that serves as the basis for my understanding intimacy. Perfect safety without having to work for it. That's my name, don't wear it out!

I don't need some grand anti-intellectual explanation for why the fact that I have ovaries makes me like cooking and nesting and taking care of him when he gets home because one hour doing his job would take every ounce of strength and willpower I had. I suppose having ovaries might explain why I like to drink and have no respect for cops, too. Or why having freckles makes me like to wear black most of the time. Hm. Such fascinating stuff, correlation is.

 

[Netzach]

It took pretty much zero critical analysis for me to recall that I fantasized about being besties with a giant boy when I was wee so that I would have someone big and strong to beat the shit out of everyone I didn't like.

I have no qualms about admitting that that serves as the basis for my understanding intimacy. Perfect safety without having to work for it. That's my name, don't wear it out!

I don't need some grand anti-intellectual explanation for why the fact that I have ovaries makes me like cooking and nesting and taking care of him when he gets home because one hour doing his job would take every ounce of strength and willpower I had. I suppose having ovaries might explain why I like to drink and have no respect for cops, too. Or why having freckles makes me like to wear black most of the time. Hm. Such fascinating stuff, correlation is.

I'm the queen of infantile. I just don't expect everyone else to stop what they're doing to be more like my fantasy. Which is what this conversation always boils down to. HOW CAN YOU NON CONFORMING FRINGE PEOPLE LIVE WITH BUCKING THE LAW OF THE MAMMOTH? Uh, hi nice to meet you.

I do expect them to stop putting words in my mouth, stop trying to include me, and stop trying to basically sell me on how wrong I am and how great they are. If that makes me hypocrtical, hooray.

 

[DeepGreenEyes]

POLL

113th Congress: inspiring leadership, or awe-inspiring leadership?

 

[midwestyankee]

POLL

113th Congress: inspiring leadership, or awe-inspiring leadership?

Do you take the bus or your lunch to work?

 

[Stella_Omega]

If I must restrict my comments to your request;
I propose that we reinvent 'manhood' and 'womanhood.'

Let ALL breadwinners, no matter if they swing a dick between their legs or bulge over their bras, be called 'man.'

Let all those who are taken care of, no matter if there's a hole between their legs or a flat chest that will never lactate, be called 'woman.'

Those of us who share financial and homemaking with whatever amount of equality, can be called 'unicorns' or something like that.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Bro- you nailed it bang-on, what I'm on about. When it all falls apart... I wonder who are going to be the ones who "defend themselves [and familes and loved ones] on that level.In a time far removed from this paradigm, it would have gone without question that the man would protect and provide, and the woman would produce and nurture.

You represent, what I hypothesize is, the predominant mentality of a typical educated and informed, middle to upperclass, independent Western heterosexual male. "when the shit hits the fan, I either want off this rock before it explodes, or I want dead, and QUICK."

When did the role of the male cease to be, "ugh... I get woman. I protect woman. ugh!"

When did the role of the female become one of, "it is now up to me to be vigilant under any and all circumstances, and when the shit does hit the fan, I know I'm gonna have to clean it up alone."



Perhaps humans are not intended to think for so many consecutive hours.... :-O

The bro you're responding to is a cis woman. She even says so. I'm just saying since you seem to have missed her reply.

 

[IrisAlthea]

If I must restrict my comments to your request;
I propose that we reinvent 'manhood' and 'womanhood.'

Let ALL breadwinners, no matter if they swing a dick between their legs or bulge over their bras, be called 'man.'

Let all those who are taken care of, no matter if there's a hole between their legs or a flat chest that will never lactate, be called 'woman.'

Those of us who share financial and homemaking with whatever amount of equality, can be called 'unicorns' or something like that.

Unicorn does have a nice ring to it.