First person gender bender

[NaokoSmith]

I dont remember having read a story where you write in first person though. That would be the true litmus test of your knowledge in the field of Manology. You can learn a lot about our behavior through studies in our natural habitat, but figuring out what goes on inside the male mind is more of a challenge.

Ok - you can stop laughing now...

Yeah, you have read all my lovely fantasy romance stories and werewolf series!
Here is my FAWC. It's true it's not written from the first person, although it's from a male POV. I'm proud of it, as grown men said it made them cry, LOL. You can already tell it wasn't an entirely successful effort at machismo! It's quite short. I think the central character is a bit too socially responsible and emotionally aware to be a 'real' man, but I welcome feedback on that.
http://www.literotica.com/s/fawc-1-was-it-real

The way to a man's mind is through his eyes.
The way to a man's heart is through his ribcage.

And the way to get his attention is to unzip his trousers?

I acksherly am a good cook.

You know, I do think there is a difference between being a man writing as a woman and a woman writing as a man, which I haven't got time to go into now as I must make the sandwiches and put breakfast on.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I've observed females for 65 years. I have 5 sisters, 3 daughters, and numerous female neighbors, relatives, and co-workers/supervisors. I had 1000s of female clients.

No female ever commits herself contractually; her favor is always tentative and likely to change without notice. She doesn't get loyalty or principles. The enduring question in the female psyche is: HOWS THIS WORKING OUT FOR ME? If theres not a dimes difference tween one thing and another, she must quest for the other or die. She's never contented or happy....because the other is out there.

 

[StrangeLife]

It doesn't hurt -- and some people will take issue with this, but it's my opinion -- to fall back on some general stereotypes. Women, supposedly, hate their bodies and are always wondering why anyone finds them attractive when they have this birthmark and that defect, one of their tits is bigger than the other, their hair is brittle, gold doesn't look right against their skin so they wear silver . . . it's a terrible thing to relate to female readers by exploiting their shared fears, but it works.

Of course, at the same time, women wanting to write from the man's point of view should mention our constant feelings of inadequacy concerning the size of our penises, the kind of car we drive, the sports teams we follow, how deep and masculine our voices are (or wish it could be), our physical prowess both in the bedroom and in a physical fight against another man, and, when describing women from a man's point of view, concentrate on at least one specific physical area of the woman's body (tits, legs, or ass are the go-to favorites, but there are pussy men, ankle men, neck men and wrist men, too).

I must agree to a point. As far as self-image goes there is actually credible research showing that men tend to view themselves as more attractive and capable than they actually are, while women tend to underestimate themselves. So yes - they are probably the most insecure sex. But since a mans worth in the eyes of some women is largely based on the stuff you mention (plus the thickness of his wallet) it can't be discounted completely either.


However it's easier to illustrate the problem with a more specific scenery. Lets take a man backing away from a conflict with another bigger/stronger/more powerful man for instance. As men we have a certain amount of pride and the need to keep that special part of us intact is very strong. Many men do not realize how strong until faced with a situation and I have yet to meet a single woman who has a clue about this side of us and treats the notion with anything other than contempt.

On the other hand the need to avoid having our asses kicked or getting killed is pretty strong too.

The way a man will will typically cater to both these needs is by compensating for his behavior through his inner dialogue. In other words he will attempt to save face by showing as much attitude as possible while backing down and repair the remainder of his pride by thinking stuff like: "I'll get you later you sob. You're nothing and I'll fuck you up good. You just wait." Mostly nothing ever happens - after the temper cools down and the adrenalin reaches normal levels the feeling of humiliation will fade as well - but plotting deadly revenge with your inner dialogue is a very efficient coping mechanism. It feels almost as good as the real thing and is a lot safer. Some men might even go on Lit and write out their inner dialogue as a BTB story, if the person who hurt their pride was a woman.

I don't have much experience with the inner dialogue of a woman in the same situation for obvious reasons, but I know that their pride isn't tied to power and assertion of it in the same way that mens are. A woman will not waste brain power on healing her wounded pride with what she considers futile self-hypnosis. In this type of situation she doesn't see a challenge - she sees a threat to her own safety. So her inner dialogue will typically be of a more practical nature, like: "I need to get a cab stat and get away before that crazy ass mofo reconsiders and decides to beat me up anyway!"


I am not saying that women don't have pride - anybody who has witnessed the fall-out after two girls showed up in identical dresses to a party can testify to that - but it works differently and is a lesser part of their existence. That's one aspect of manhood that many women don't get - the author of Clean, Alex Hughes being one of them. And unless a female writer is fully aware of this difference between the sexes and able to employ it in her prose, she will never be able to write a credible first person male character.

 

[StrangeLife]

Yeah, you have read all my lovely fantasy romance stories and werewolf series!
Here is my FAWC. It's true it's not written from the first person, although it's from a male POV. I'm proud of it, as grown men said it made them cry, LOL. You can already tell it wasn't an entirely successful effort at machismo! It's quite short. I think the central character is a bit too socially responsible and emotionally aware to be a 'real' man, but I welcome feedback on that.
http://www.literotica.com/s/fawc-1-was-it-real

True, my knowledge of your work so far is primarily based on the wolfy part of your portfolio. But I will certainly check out your forage into masculinity - thanks

I've observed females for 65 years. I have 5 sisters, 3 daughters, and numerous female neighbors, relatives, and co-workers/supervisors. I had 1000s of female clients.

No female ever commits herself contractually; her favor is always tentative and likely to change without notice. She doesn't get loyalty or principles. The enduring question in the female psyche is: HOWS THIS WORKING OUT FOR ME? If theres not a dimes difference tween one thing and another, she must quest for the other or die. She's never contented or happy....because the other is out there.

Well, at least your experiences haven't made you cynical or anything...

 

[Aynmair]

Oops... Sorry!

So sorry, SL, for incorrectly giving Swilly credit for this thread. I've really enjoyed this discussion and learning from it. My bad!

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

True, my knowledge of your work so far is primarily based on the wolfy part of your portfolio. But I will certainly check out your forage into masculinity - thanks






Well, at least your experiences haven't made you cynical or anything...

Mencken said cynics are realists.

 

[StrangeLife]

So sorry, SL, for incorrectly giving Swilly credit for this thread. I've really enjoyed this discussion and learning from it. My bad!

Glory shared is glory multiplied.




http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/7/72081/1399362-z.jpg

 

[Desiremakesmeweak]

Wilfred Brimley - the source of my favourite line in movies of all time ever:

"We won't get sick, we won't grow old, and we won't ever die..."

"When will we go there, granpa?"

"Soon m'lad, sooo-oon."


Sherlock Holmes - 'high functioning socio-path.' '1st person pov would be like reading a maths book.'

And what the fuck is wrong with maths books? : )

The Makers of Mathematics by Stuart Hollingdale happens to be one of my favourite books. (These Lit E writer certainly know their characters. I don't play violin but my dad did. Well actually, I do play it - if you can call it that...)


And my second favourite movie line of all time:

"How about the Green... BEE. Anyone? Anyone?" Seth Rogan. Green Hornet.

Me = high functioning socio-path with a self-trained sense of humour; literally had to train myself to laugh at jokes. Did it when I was around 15 after noticing people used humour to get on with each other.

Women get on with me a lot - does that tell you anything about... women? rotflmao. (See, I DIDN'T really roll on the floor now, did I? Internet = easy place for high functioning socio-paths to pretend to have a sense of humour.)

 

[Desiremakesmeweak]

Strangelife, probably one of the main reasons I do think some of them can write the sort of hardcore man pov is that I have been lucky enough to know a few women who were right there in that mindset.

All of them wrote but not professionally although one was published but I am not really allowed to say under what name (I'll leave it for another time to talk about it; the actual 'saga' about what went on is fairly inflammatory, the truth of it that is, and many people still argue with me about it to this day but I do know the real story. And so do others. Suffice to say, though, that one of the most well-known 'tough' books - and eventually films - of the modern era was written by a woman and not the man who was permitted by the British Ministry of Something-or-other to be on the cover as the author. And I am not referring to anything Fleming or Greene.)

Why were they 'in the mindset?'

Well, at least of the two that I slept with - they were bi-sexual, and one was a natural red-head. And on the Olympic Water Polo team. She used to comment (sexually) on attractive men and women as they walked by under her breath to me without even realising she was doing it. She talked about every conquest she made and in detail about the sex that transpired.

She was a gambler, a drinker of spirits, a carouser, a car driver, and extremely good at sex. And she was an inciter of it with other women - and men.

One day, I left for a far country to do a small contract and literally got kidnapped (by a company) and her fast life has moved her to even further away places than I want to be. I'm a rather sedate kind of person. But she could write and it was unrecognizable that she was not a man when you read her stuff. She looked, physically, NOT remotely like a man!!

They are out there.

 

[Desiremakesmeweak]

And, I have current women friends who contribute to what I write, although they almost never write more than a few lines themselves. (I don't think they, these, can write like guys though!! They have good ideas, but not your hardcore, violent, bonehead, stubborn, fatalistic, MAN ideas.)

 

[Hypoxia]

(I don't think they, these, can write like guys though!! They have good ideas, but not your hardcore, violent, bonehead, stubborn, fatalistic, MAN ideas.)

Caricatured stereotypical portrayals are despicable, easy, and fun. Only a few character types are needed. They're like shorthand versions of real people -- stock characters. Without them, fiction (and history) would be tedious.

 

[StrangeLife]

And what the fuck is wrong with maths books? : )

The Makers of Mathematics by Stuart Hollingdale happens to be one of my favourite books. (These Lit E writer certainly know their characters. I don't play violin but my dad did. Well actually, I do play it - if you can call it that...)

Face it - people are intimidated by math and science. But as math books goes, I love the Manga Guides.

http://s8.postimg.org/wevha988l/Manga_Guide_to_Linear_Algebra.jpg


Maybe this is the way to go in order to make math less scary and more accessible to non-sociopaths...

 

[sr71plt]

Probability - - *shudder*

 

[StrangeLife]

Probability - - *shudder*

There is a Manga Guide for that as well....

http://www.nostarch.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/product_full/mg_statistics_big.png

 

[sr71plt]

Calculus. *double shudder*

 

[StrangeLife]

Calculus. *double shudder*

Yep, that too


http://s23.postimg.org/xo6exclrf/manga_guide_to_calculus.jpg



Seriously though - calculus is pretty cool...

 

[Hypoxia]

Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe and not make messes in the house.

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects!

-- Lazarus Long, "Time Enough for Love"

 

[RoyceConnors]

I'll just say that it takes a strength of character to write from the opposite sex POV. One must give up every viewpoint and manner of thinking and adopt the other's way of thinking.
I have been writing under a female pen name for quite a while now and many women have commented that only a woman could write like that and understand, while many men state they've learned more about women than any woman they've ever been with. I'll take those as a nod I'm doing it right.
It all comes down to thinking from the other side of the brain with things. As long as I have an understanding of what it is that I'm writing about, I can write a decent story around it.

 

[Desiremakesmeweak]

I observe there may be a number of 'high functioning socio-paths' aboard here...

Manga. I like Manga. One of the best lines I ever wrote:

"Bimbo-wa o kudasai?"

 

[Hypoxia]

I observe there may be a number of 'high functioning socio-paths' aboard here...

Manga. I like Manga. One of the best lines I ever wrote:

"Bimbo-wa o kudasai?"

Japan Bans Child Porn, But Makes Exceptions For Manga Comics

TOKYO, June 18 (Reuters) - Japan's parliament voted on Wednesday to outlaw possession of child pornography after years of international calls for a crackdown, but avoided a clampdown on sexually explicit manga comics and animation depicting young children.

Japan is the last OECD nation to criminalize possession of child pornography, although it outlawed production and distribution in 1999, and has long been considered a safe haven for those buying child pornography.

============================================

Now, back to the usual misunderstandings.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Put it this way, if ALL writers were equally good, then one would be able to see whether or not it is possible. But they're just not. The good writers, at least in my view, can write anything. There are, though, very few really good writers.

I think this whole idea of 'a woman's point of view' depends upon the social styles of particular eras of women, frankly.

Even if I were to look at men as an entire group, they are very different across a spectrum.

Uh-huh. To me this stuff feels like saying "men are tall and women are short": yes, on average, but there are plenty of non-average people around. Gwendoline Christie is 6'3" and Peter Dinklage is 4'5". And most fiction authors, male and female, seek out non-average characters, because who buys a novel about the peasants of Westeros rotating their crops?

Plenty of female authors have published under male pseudonyms; many have since been revealed over the years, but I'm having trouble thinking of any who was outed by her writing style.

 

[Carmenica Diaz]

Can you write a credible story from the pow of the opposite sex?

It is not easy. I thought it was and have published many books.

Recently, it was pointed out to me that the stories with a male POV differ subtly from the stories from the female POV.

“I think my computer was on the verge of melting down a couple of times…In passing, I wonder if you know that when you write Fm fiction you are much harsher, even if the F loves the male. You use drugs, electric shock, beatings with crops, canes and even sticks as well as the ubiquitous inescapable male chastity belt. When you write Ff fiction the control is much more mental and sensual.”

There is no doubt feel more comfortable with female POV.

As I said, not easy.

 

[StrangeLife]

What I meant was, that Adam Dalgliesh is designed to be a steady and predictable element in a sea of changing sceneries and colorful characters. Sorta like a comedy act requiring a "straight man" in order to work. The entertaining aspect of a P.D. James novel is not Dalgliesh - he is... well, Dalgliesh. No surprises there. But the people he interact with and the environments he frequents - that's the interesting part. We need Dalgliesh in order to set the tone and anchor the story in his world. But the story is never about Dalgliesh. He is never in danger (well ok, he does catch SARS at some point), he is never wrong and he never faces any major personal moral choices.

If P.D. James wanted to, she could easily have enhanced Dalgliesh by making him more central in the books. How about Dalgliesh waking up in a hospital bed after an attempted murder and then having to figure out who wants him dead before the perp succeeds? Or he could fall under suspicion for a crime and being forced to clear his own name with help from his staff. But the series ended in 2008 with a Hallmark finale, so that aint happening.


Unless.... (thinking of erotic Dalglies fan fiction here)... naahh!

Ok - I have now re-watched a few of the old Dalgliesh TV series featuring Roy Marsden, who has defined the character similar to what Jeremy Brett did for Sherlock Holmes and David Suchet for Hercule Poirot. And they are fairly faithful to the books.


As an example to support my claim I will use: Devices and Desires from 1989.


Plots....

Terrorist plot to hack a nuclear power plant. Foiled because the terrorist is spooked by a lovesick young guy and aborts the mission. Dalgliesh was looking into it for the Special Branch and knew the identity of the terrorist, but did nothing.

Serial killer strangles lone women in the street. His identity is a evident as a billboard on Times Square, but he is only stopped because he kills himself. Dalgliesh did nothing and had no idea who he was until he found the body.

Neurotic gay dude kills himself in the power plant right in front of Dalgliesh. There is no adequate reason why he did that, except that he's a neurotic gay dude and therefore prone to do neurotic gay things. Of course Dalgliesh did nothing.

Copy cat killer uses the serial killers m.o. to mask the murder of a black mailer. The murder is solved by Dalgliesh's girlfriend who confronts the murderer who subsequently commits suicide to avoid a scandal. Again Dalgliesh did nothing.


To sum it up, Dalglieshs' presence is completely inconsequential to the resolution of all the sub-plots and apart from prancing around looking dapper, rocking the quitesental British stache and drinking tea with everybody he has no function in the book. P.D. James is much more about drama and atmosphere than mysteries, and her hero reflects this.