Can America ever again have a social class of economically independent producers?

[KingOrfeo]

Spinoff from this thread based on an article excerpted from Angry White Men: American Masculinity at the End of an Era, by Michael Kimmel.

On the extreme Right, by contrast, race is a proxy for class. Among the white supremacists, when they speak of race consciousness, defending white people, protesting for equal rights for white people, they actually don’t mean all white people. They don’t mean Wall Street bankers and lawyers, though they are pretty much entirely white and male. They don’t mean white male doctors, or lawyers, or architects, or even engineers. They don’t mean the legions of young white hipster guys, or computer geeks flocking to the Silicon Valley, or the legions of white preppies in their boat shoes and seersucker jackets “interning” at white-shoe law firms in major cities. Not at all. They mean middle-and working-class white people. Race consciousness is actually class consciousness without actually having to “see” class. “Race blindness” leads working-class people to turn right; if they did see class, they’d turn left and make common cause with different races in the same economic class.

That’s certainly what I found among them. Most are in their mid-thirties to early forties, educated at least through high school and often beyond. (The average age of the guys I talked with was thirty-six.) They are the sons of skilled workers in industries like textiles and tobacco, the sons of the owners of small farms, shops, and grocery stores. Buffeted by global political and economic forces, the sons have inherited little of their fathers’ legacies. The family farms have been lost to foreclosure, the small shops squeezed out by Walmarts and malls. These young men face a spiral of downward mobility and economic uncertainty. They complain that they are squeezed between the omnivorous jaws of global capital concentration and a federal bureaucracy that is at best indifferent to their plight and at worst complicit in their demise.

And they’re right. It is the lower middle class—that strata of independent farmers, small shopkeepers, craft and highly skilled workers, and small-scale entrepreneurs—that has been hit hardest by globalization. “Western industry has displaced traditional crafts—female as well as male—and large-scale multinational-controlled agriculture has downgraded the independent farmer to the status of hired hand,” writes journalist Barbara Ehrenreich. This has resulted in massive male displacement—migration, downward mobility. It has been felt the most not by the adult men who were the tradesmen, shopkeepers, and skilled workers, but by their sons, by the young men whose inheritance has been seemingly stolen from them. They feel entitled and deprived—and furious. These angry young men are the foot soldiers of the armies of rage that have sprung up around the world.

Now, what can be done about all of that, I wonder? It does not appear possible to reverse globalization. Can America, ever again, have what Thomas Jefferson envisioned, a working/middle class of persons who have some economic independence by virtue of owning the productive property they work?

That matters. My mother's father was a sharecropper who eventually saved enough to buy his own land. The family was always poor -- but even throughout the Great Depression they always ate well, because they could grow their own food. I think some part of a nation's resilience is based on having a non-trivial number of people who can get by no matter what happens.

See Distributism, formulated by lefty Catholics in the late 19th/early 20th to provide an alternative to both socialism and capitalism.

According to distributists, property ownership is a fundamental right[4] and the means of production should be spread as widely as possible rather than being centralized under the control of the state (state socialism), a few individuals (plutocracy), or corporations (corporatocracy). Distributism therefore advocates a society marked by widespread property ownership[5] and, according to co-operative economist Race Mathews, maintains that such a system is key to bringing about a just social order.[6]

Distributism has often been described in opposition to both socialism and capitalism,[7][8] which distributists see as equally flawed and exploitative.[9] Thomas Storck argues that "both socialism and capitalism are products of the European Enlightenment and are thus modernizing and anti-traditional forces. Further, some distributists argue states that socialism is the logical conclusion of capitalism as capitalism's concentrated powers eventually capture the state, turning it into socialism.[10][11] In contrast, distributism seeks to subordinate economic activity to human life as a whole, to our spiritual life, our intellectual life, our family life".[12]

But, the industrial side of it is necessarily based on small-scale craft-and-cottage industries; I've never seen any explanation of how any large-scale industrial enterprise -- and in many industries an enterprise must be large-scale to be at all efficient -- could be organized along Distributist lines.

 

[snugglestruggle]

Two things come to mind

1) Get the government out of peoples business. Let innovators innovate. Emerging technology will multiply peoples ability to create which will lead to #2

2) I think the next big thing will be the commercialization of space travel. That shit won't be made in China. There will be a whole new industrial revolution resulting from that which will spin off countless new industries & technology = good paying jobs. IMO

 

[KingOrfeo]

Two things come to mind

1) Get the government out of peoples business. Let innovators innovate. Emerging technology will multiply peoples ability to create which will lead to #2

No, that's what got us into this mess.

2) I think the next big thing will be the commercialization of space travel. That shit won't be made in China.

What makes you think it won't be made in China?

In any case, any employee of a space-industry is still an employee, not an independent producer.

As Greg Brown put it:

Some people live to work, work to live
Any little tremble and the earth might give
Ya can't hide it in a Volvo or a London Fog
Can't hide it in a mansion with an imported dog
No matter how we plan and rehearse, we're at pink slip's mercy in a paper universe
And we're afraid that we're just a bum
Someday when all our stuff is gone and we're left without a dime
Time ain't money when all ya got is time
And we can see us standin on the corner with our nine-day beards and our bright red eyes
Goin, hey hey hey hey hey hey hey
Hey hey hey hey, come on and listen to my story man hey, hey hey hey hey, ah hey

 

[jodylee]

I think people are finally starting to see how we have big boxed ourselves into problems. As weird as this seems, it's interesting to watch the glass pipe makers and see how American made/artisan/artist made is really revered in this segment of the glass industry. The upper echelons of the innovator/artists are making good money, passing in their craft to the next generation, and we see many who have poo pooed the industry now coming on board. I think this is one way we are seeing the general public seeing value in handmade, and Made in America.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Two things come to mind

1) Get the government out of peoples business.

Yea right....KO fucking WORSHIPS the government, it's a fucking wonder he didn't end up in the USMC boot camp eternal so a sanctioned government official could command him though every waking moment of his life. Fuck if you could find a way to strip human beings of their souls, no individuality at all or personal anything and automate them into perfect worker bees for the greater good he would vote yes.

http://mbtimetraveler.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/borg1.gif
^^KO wet dream.

 

[ms_ann_thrope]

Not until the lower incomes can afford to buy their crap.

 

[snugglestruggle]

I dunno I just see more and more companies purging themselves of traditional employer roles. Everything is changing, it's very fluid. Big manufacturers will always have a dedicated " inhouse" workforce but so much of our economy is now service oriented.

Most workers only need a PC or smartphone to do their jobs. Why wouldn't a company want to contract out with individuals? It makes a lot of sense. unless you have to be onsite theres no reason to want a traditional employer/employee relationship. It's all about $$

Telecommuting has risen, the next logical step is have people bid (fighting) for jobs, companies will love that. Theres even a couple of websites for that already. it won't be long corporations jump on the band wagon.

The time is not far off where some guy in his garage can think up, design and produce a product with just 1 machine. 3d printer is a good example. Edlebrock uses them to produce prototype intake manifolds for analysis. One guy, a computer and a printer. does the work of a machine shop.

 

[magicalmoments]

Most workers only need a PC or smartphone to do their jobs. Why wouldn't a company want to contract out with individuals? It makes a lot of sense. unless you have to be onsite theres no reason to want a traditional employer/employee relationship. It's all about $$

I disagree with your point quoted above. A very very small number of workers fit into that category of not having to be onsite. Try having a plumber unblock your drain with a PC or smartphone, or a carpenter build you a house, or a painter paint your roof, or a mechanic fix your car or a fast food worker deliver you fries with that. And in traditional employer/employee relationships

Yes the world is changing but let's not forget that all those unseen people who keep your first world from turning into a garbage heap will always have to go to work.

And that is only considering the lucky Nations, the number of people who share your privileges is very few.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Two things come to mind

1) Get the government out of peoples business. Let innovators innovate. Emerging technology will multiply peoples ability to create which will lead to #2

2) I think the next big thing will be the commercialization of space travel. That shit won't be made in China. There will be a whole new industrial revolution resulting from that which will spin off countless new industries & technology = good paying jobs. IMO

No, that's what got us into this mess.



What makes you think it won't be made in China?

In any case, any employee of a space-industry is still an employee, not an independent producer.

...

Answer one is on target.

"The request of Industry to the Government is as modest as that of Diogenes to Alexander: Stand out of my sunshine."
Frédéric Bastiat

Response #2 is why it cannot happen. The sophism of protectionism. Especially the first statement, that hatred of the markets that is common to the thinking of the Interventionist Statist and the altruistic moral busybody focused on Social Justice and Equality.

 

[snugglestruggle]

Why would it? The commercialization of space began here. It's still in it's infancy. It's a given that it any " sub orbital vehicle" will be built by the lowest bidder, but until trips become as common as air travel safety, quality and government regulation will rule. Also if something goes boom, your fucked.

If I used your logic then NASA would have all it's "toys" built in China.

 

[dan_c00000]

So you're telling me that farmers during the Depression and the Dust Bowl ate well? Exactly when did they eat while? Before or after their farms got repossessed by the bank? Or while their purchasing power declined because they couldn't sell their products?

Probably no one starved to death but certainly most people did not eat "well". The Great Depression also had extreme regional effects, like in the South.

Come on King you're better than this and you know it.

 

[KingOrfeo]

So you're telling me that farmers during the Depression and the Dust Bowl ate well?

No, I am only telling you my mother's family did. The Dust Bowl did not affect Florida.

 

[JohnnySavage]

No one man can make a pencil.

 

[BoyNextDoor]

To the point made in the cut and paste in the OP: I agree that a reemergence of the middle class, petit bourgeois or the Jeffersonian yeoman farmer will not happen until there is an awakening of class consciousness in the US. And I do not mean class as defined by income stratification or "%-er". But rather class as defined by the way goods and services are produced, consumed and distributed, how the profit is allocated and how you as an individual participate in that process of creating value.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

We aint headed to space.

Feudal manors is where we going. Youll be a villain for Sir Hillary, and glad for it. The less fortunate will poach her deer and fish, and sleep in the forest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villein_(feudal)

 

[BoyNextDoor]

There you go. JBJ believes we are returning to the Feudal fundamental class process. The class consciousness of the US is already awakening.

 

[Sean Renaud]

I disagree with your point quoted above. A very very small number of workers fit into that category of not having to be onsite. Try having a plumber unblock your drain with a PC or smartphone, or a carpenter build you a house, or a painter paint your roof, or a mechanic fix your car or a fast food worker deliver you fries with that. And in traditional employer/employee relationships

Yes the world is changing but let's not forget that all those unseen people who keep your first world from turning into a garbage heap will always have to go to work.

And that is only considering the lucky Nations, the number of people who share your privileges is very few.

Well for starters with a smart phone I bet a plumber could talk someone through nine out of ten issues they are going to encounter. It's usually not complicated but just like anything else that can be broken into steps there is no reason to think robots can't handle this. However lets assume for the sake of argument that plumbers are immune to automation. How many plumbers are there by comparison to jobs we know can be automated like cashier, stocker, truck driver, etc etc.

Why would it? The commercialization of space began here. It's still in it's infancy. It's a given that it any " sub orbital vehicle" will be built by the lowest bidder, but until trips become as common as air travel safety, quality and government regulation will rule. Also if something goes boom, your fucked.

If I used your logic then NASA would have all it's "toys" built in China.

The commercialization of space travel? The most we can hope for (in the foreseeable future) is for space travel to rank up there with Disney World, something that some people can afford to go out and do. It'll never be a big part of the economy.

 

[LJ_Reloaded]

No, that's what got us into this mess.



What makes you think it won't be made in China?

National security issues won't allow that.

 

[KingOrfeo]

The commercialization of space travel? The most we can hope for (in the foreseeable future) is for space travel to rank up there with Disney World, something that some people can afford to go out and do. It'll never be a big part of the economy.

Unless some profitable industrial application is found -- mining (at costs lower than the value of the ore), solar-power collection, or some industrial process that can only be done in vacuum or microgravity conditions.

Space fans have been predicting such things since the 1970s, but they have yet to materialize.

Of course, it could happen.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Unless some profitable industrial application is found -- mining (at costs lower than the value of the ore), solar-power collection, or some industrial process that can only be done in vacuum or microgravity conditions.

Space fans have been predicting such things since the 1970s, but they have yet to materialize.

Of course, it could happen.

Fair enough, I heard someone in Japan wanted to put solar panels on the moon and send the energy down to Earth via microwaves or lasers. I forget the details of it. I suppose it's not impossible but I'm no where near confident enough in it to make any short term bets based on it.

Like I said I can easily see space hotels becoming a thing.

 

[dan_c00000]

No, I am only telling you my mother's family did. The Dust Bowl did not affect Florida.

Then they were indeed very lucky. As you can see from my previous links they were lucky and atypical.

Furthermore, if you look at the percent of people who are farmers that number is between 1 and 2 %.

 

[KingOrfeo]

Furthermore, if you look at the percent of people who are farmers that number is between 1 and 2 %.

Yes, now, that was part of my point.

 

[jeninflorida]

get a job, lazy fucker. can't have 'wealth' unless you get off your ass

 

[magicalmoments]

Well for starters with a smart phone I bet a plumber could talk someone through nine out of ten issues they are going to encounter. It's usually not complicated but just like anything else that can be broken into steps there is no reason to think robots can't handle this. However lets assume for the sake of argument that plumbers are immune to automation. How many plumbers are there by comparison to jobs we know can be automated like cashier, stocker, truck driver, etc etc.

With the charge out rates plumbers have they are never going to talk you through a problem on the phone.

I think your vision for an automated future is a bit optimistic. While there are prototype automated systems of the type you list, im my opinion it will be outside the life time of anyone currently living that they become common place and start displacing people, and then only in first world countries. The majority of the worlds population are a lot further away from your vision.

 

[Sean Renaud]

With the charge out rates plumbers have they are never going to talk you through a problem on the phone.

I think your vision for an automated future is a bit optimistic. While there are prototype automated systems of the type you list, im my opinion it will be outside the life time of anyone currently living that they become common place and start displacing people, and then only in first world countries. The majority of the worlds population are a lot further away from your vision.

You're first point is simply wrong. Sooner or later someone is going to write a computer program that will look just like a computer debug for fixing plumbing. I'll ask you to go through a number of easily followed steps and if they fail then call this number for a professional. The website will make money hand over fist. Kinda like the same reason why very few people have travel agents these days when you can just go on line and search.

Prototype? Netflix and Nook are both very real and Blockbuster and Borders are both out of business. Email has all but made the USPS obsolete. I don't think there is a dedicated DVD or Music store left. I can't remember the last time I stepped foot in a bank, I cash my checks by phone. And have direct deposit for my day job. These are just things that not everybody uses yet but I'm not talking stuff that isn't floating around right now.

Perhaps UPS drivers being replaced by self driving cars is a way off. But the rest of this are things that are running around now.

I happen to live in the first world so that's where my concern lies. However I would recommend you take a look at places like Singapore and to a lesser extent South Korea. It turns out that being in the 3rd world has one major advantage. Unlike America where in order to get "up to date" we have to work around four hundred years of growth when someone finally unfucks Etheopia they are going to kick over a bunch of beat to hell shacks and replace them with 21 century buildings practically overnight.