Then & Than ... ??

[Mick2150]

Whereas I live in N America, my upbringing was UK. I am confused - I see what I believe to be frequent mis-use & mix-up of these two words - then and than. It only appears to me to be an issue with people who seem to reside in the USA.

If I read a post aloud & 'allow' for a slight variation in pronunciation, then I could perhaps put this down to confusion on the part of the writer. But, seriously, these two words have quite different meanings. Right?

I recently read an article that talked about 'the moving vowel' in certain areas of the US. I then realised that I had completely mistook what someone was talking about when I heard a Michigan person say 'packet' - later I realised that they were talking about a 'pocket.

 

[Hypoxia]

Vowels in Anglish are slippery wee buggers and tend to slide all over the place. Generic Espanish is much simpler - a is AH, e is AY, i is EE, o is OH, u is OO, and diphthongs are pretty easy too. Anglish (being an agglomeration of many tongues) is a maze in comparison. I have heard THEN pronounced as THAY-AN, THANN, THINN, THUN, and other variants. Certain Southern US drawls make WELL THEN a 5- or 6- or even 7-syllable phrase, like UH-WAY-ALL UH-THAY-EN-UH. My advice: Learn Esperanto.

 

[LWulf]

I used to have a dictionary which defined American English: linguistically. It was just a page or three on the inside cover. Different geographic zones have different accents. Granted, as hypoxia mentioned, American English is different because of immigration from many varied countries. Most people don't realize, for instance, that the stereotypical guttural intonations of NYer's are derivative of having a Dutch background (among others later on).

However, consider that even the British subjects tend to have accented differences depending on their traditional background.

"Accents and dialects vary widely across the United Kingdom; as such, a single "British accent" does not exist, but someone could be said to have an English, Welsh, or Scottish accent although these all have several different sub-types.
-a la Wiki

So...I'm not exactly sure what the point of this thread is. If the point is the written "then" and "than" verses accents, then I completely agree. I don't think this has any bearing based on accents though.
It's just because parents are socially encouraged to coddle and not to correct their children.

I had an argument with some college students who told me I was wrong when I said "then" is temporal and "than" is comparative (so even college students don't know/care what is proper).

You could also say most American kids don't know when to use "to" or "too" or any numerous other homophones, so accents don't have anything to do with it, IMO.

Anglish (being an agglomeration of many tongues) is a maze in comparison.

Actually, English is an amalgam of many different languages. Seriously, what other language do you hear rules like "I before E except after C, except as in "A" as in neighbor and weigh"??

Answer: None!!

The best example of English being made of different languages is the "Marquess of Queensberry rules" which is unique in the English language because anything ending in -ess normally denotes a female (Mistress, seamstress, etc), while a Marquess is a male rank. Unless you hop the channel and go into France where you find the term Marquis, which is where the British term derives from.

 

[Blind_Justice]

then = used to show things happening in sequence, like "first I undressed her, then I pulled her onto the bed"

than = used (as far as I know) exclusively in comparisons, like "my car had bigger rims than your car"

People, especially on the internets, fuck this up way too often.

Same with other relatively easy things like "should of" (wrong) instead of "should have" or "per say" (also wrong) instead of "per se". People hear that stuff and write it wrong. The last one I had in one of my few edit jobs was "picked my interest" when it's supposed to be "piqued my interest".

But apart from the first example, these are phrases assimilated from other languages, just like Hypoxia said, so the pronounciation can vary somewhat from the written form.

 

[robertreams]

Americans in general are very sloppy about pronunciation, very seldom, for one thing, enunciating 't', somewhat like a certain dialect in UK dropping aitches. Another good example of mispelling due to poor enuncition is worst and worse, as in that is the wors thing I ever saw. One thing is: In the US we no longer teach ellocution, the art of speakig well. I have a copy, specially made for me, of my father's ellocution textbook from high school, from which he read us many delightful Christmas and other stories and poems. Unfortunatrly thjs lack of diction parrallels the loss of grammer, two things no longer needed in the media. I do not know from what disciplines media moguls hire newscasters and others these days, but it is certainly not from among the educated. Two nights ago, I heard a report, repeated twice to millions of TV viewers, the story of a man. . ".with two sons named Saul."

 

[Zeb_Carter]

It's typos! Nothing but pure typos. And text speak.

Plus all the people that mix them up are ignorant.

You can fix ignorant, but you can't fix stupid.

 

[Swilly]

I think people just don't read anywhere near as much as they used to. I mean beyond Facebook posts and text messages. The correct use and meaning of a lot of words is reinforced by reading.

I hate when I end up typing to instead of too, or your instead of you're. It isn't that I don't know which one to use, but rather that I suck at typing. I need a special flag I can wave that indicates....typing error!

 

[49greg]

I think people just don't read anywhere near as much as they used to. I mean beyond Facebook posts and text messages. The correct use and meaning of a lot of words is reinforced by reading.

I hate when I end up typing to instead of too, or your instead of you're. It isn't that I don't know which one to use, but rather that I suck at typing. I need a special flag I can wave that indicates....typing error!

I agree with the 'not reading enough', and I also believe that schools in the US don't teach grammar and spelling as much as they used to back in the bad old days. They "Teach to the Test" and forget learning the rules.

I knew a girl once who exchanged emails with me for a time. She was from Chicago and always used 'then' when she meant 'than'. I tried to hint in emails what the correct spelling was, but once I met her in person I realized that she wasn't very bright. Had other talents though.

 

[Mick2150]

Mention of pronunciation in my original post was confusing. What I was really getting at - and what seems to have come through in a number of the replies - is that sloppy writing seems to be of less concern today than in the past. I just get frustrated when I see 'then' & 'than'; 'two, to & too'; 'their & there'; here & hear ... etc., being wrongly used. Rightly or wrongly, I grade my perception of the writers education - not to be confused with their intelligence - on what I read.

 

[Handley_Page]

Mention of pronunciation in my original post was confusing. What I was really getting at - and what seems to have come through in a number of the replies - is that sloppy writing seems to be of less concern today than in the past. I just get frustrated when I see 'then' & 'than'; 'two, to & too'; 'their & there'; here & hear ... etc., being wrongly used. Rightly or wrongly, I grade my perception of the writers education - not to be confused with their intelligence - on what I read.

I agree.
But I put it down to:-
Bad teaching & educational standards,
Bad examples on TV & entertainment generally,
Peer pressure.
A spell checker that cannot tell the difference.

 

[49greg]

Mention of pronunciation in my original post was confusing. What I was really getting at - and what seems to have come through in a number of the replies - is that sloppy writing seems to be of less concern today than in the past. I just get frustrated when I see 'then' & 'than'; 'two, to & too'; 'their & there'; here & hear ... etc., being wrongly used. Rightly or wrongly, I grade my perception of the writers education - not to be confused with their intelligence - on what I read.

I have the same thoughts about getting those words wrong, and I'll add another one that irks me - they're - usually 'there' or 'their' are put instead. It tends to make the read less enjoyable. I have made a few boners myself by not catching something in proofreading. But even so ....

 

[Hypoxia]

My curiosity is piqued to peek at Pike's Peak when I'm walking my Peke.

They're saying their there is around Thayer, but they all thay that.

And don't even get me started on apostrophes.

OK, that's fun, but I find myself unconsciously abusing your's and they're's and similar's, which I mostly catch in editing. Mostly. Damn, why did I have to learn touch typing when I was twelve? Life would be so much easier if I'd stuck to Palmer pensmanship.

 

[trace_ekies]

In addition to all the very good reasons previously given, I am also suspecting that a fair amount of story input these days is done 'speech to text' rather than being typed. From what I have seen so far, 'speech to text' has not yet advanced to the point of using the context to decide whether, for example, 'to', 'too' or 'two' was intended.

When I encounter a number of glaring homophonic errors in an otherwise well crafted and grammatically correct story, I attribute it to input method, rather than ignorance or lack of education. Of course, it does still suggest a weakness in the editing.

 

[Hypoxia]

In addition to all the very good reasons previously given, I am also suspecting that a fair amount of story input these days is done 'speech to text' rather than being typed. From what I have seen so far, 'speech to text' has not yet advanced to the point of using the context to decide whether, for example, 'to', 'too' or 'two' was intended.

When I encounter a number of glaring homophonic errors in an otherwise well crafted and grammatically correct story, I attribute it to input method, rather than ignorance or lack of education. Of course, it does still suggest a weakness in the editing.

I use the old-fashioned speech-2-text method: I transcribe my dictated tapes manually. My fingers and what passes for a brain handle the auto-correct chores. Guess I'm a fuddy-luddy.

 

[Blind_Justice]

I only listen to the voices in my head when typing. I wish they'd come up with a damn bestseller already...

 

[Handley_Page]

I only listen to the voices in my head when typing. I wish they'd come up with a damn bestseller already...

Ah, the little voices.
Didn't they burn the originator of that problem ?

 

[Hypoxia]

Ah, the little voices.
Didn't they burn the originator of that problem ?

Many voices-in-the-head listeners have been burnt. Many others have done the burning.

But I digress. I depend on the voices in my head. I am not joking. Those voices tell me what to read and write, what music to listen to and make, what photos to view and shoot -- what stories and songs and accounts and images to create and promulgate. And I have done so fairly well. I *don't* have voices telling me how to draw and paint and sculpt -- my sisters have those. My voices have told me how to build electronics and instruments, but not how to repairs autos.

My voices used to advise me on politics and morality, but I told them to shut up.