Masculine women

[iamnotaprincess]

Hi all!
I am new to posting on this forum because I am shy and don't feel I have much to offer in terms of opinions or creativity, but I have a dilemma.

Maybe it has been discussed before, I've seen a few threads that touched the subject somewhat but not exactly the way I want to put it.

I am wondering whether heterosexual men can like really masculine women. Now, I know there's men who do(hetero and bi) but I am not sure if in large enough nr's for them not to be a very small category or something.

It might seem like a stupid ,silly thing to ask but I am a very masculine woman, there is some dysphoria going on so it's not like I woke up one day and decided I want to be butch.

Thing is, and I am a bit embarrassed to say this on a site about sexuality where it seems most people are somewhat experienced at least, men only seem to look my way to figure out what I am.

I am 26 years old, a tad introverted and so I may be a bit closed off around new people and large crowds(large crowds as in a party, not large crowds of people I am not supposed to interact with anyway), it isn't something I can control or am aware of and it goes away fairly quickly if I interact positively with said new people. Looks wise...I've never been called ugly but I was never complimented by men either. Technically speaking there's nothing ugly about me. I'm very light brown/very dark blonde ,big blue eyes, nice lips, 5ft6, average build, nice legs. Let's say I am surely average. I am also smart ,knowledgeable ,I have a healthy sense of humor complete with sarcasm.

Thing is...I am very masculine. My body itself isn't masculine in the sense that I am average in height for a woman but below average for a man, I am not big boned or with sharp angles. My demeanor tends to naturally be more stereotypically male, same with the way I express myself(although my voice isn't male), I am not dainty.

I guess the biggest masculine thing are my clothes(all from the men's section, good quality) and my haircut(it's a nice, clean, short haircut but not in a feminine short style).

For years I thought it was my weight, that I was yet another victim of this stupid stereotype concerning weight, but I wasn't even obese or obese looking, although I was chubby-fat and I did get mocked for it.

But I lost weight and while I am still about 5kg's from my goal, I am of average weight now and no one comments on my weight.

Granted, I don't get the opportunity to meet many men and the men in my country in Europe are not really appealing to me most of the time, but my friends are similar to me in personality(as in more introverted, not fans of parties, not with really big groups of friends) and they still find men or at least have men be interested in them.

I know part of my problem is my attitude and lack of experience but that alone doesn't explain the complete drought.

So, my question is ...in your experience, does a woman like me stand a chance? It's a stupid question but I have no examples I can see around me or in the media, women like me are not represented and so I have to ask whoever I can.

I am not trans in that I don't want to live like a man and sexually I always felt like a heterosexual woman, I want to experience intimacy in my own current body, as a woman. I wish I had been born a man because it would have worked much better with the visible aspects of my personality and because I am a tad dysphoric, I wish I knew what it felt like to be a man, I wish sometimes I could switch between bodies, but I never felt an urge to have a sex change or take hormones or live properly as a man, introduce myself as one.

The only women who dress similarly to me(in men's clothing and with no feminine accessories style wise/make up/hair) are lesbians so when it comes to their love lives they don't serve as an example, their "target audience" is not mine.

You hear a lot of men say they want nerdy girls who play games and watch tv shows but then most have an image of the nerdy girl that doesn't even fit most nerdy girls of that type and then they get bullied in the gaming world or ,even if they fit the image, they are seen as impostors somewhat. The same with many men who say they like curves but are quick to call most women fat. So I think it's always hard to make an opinion based on random articles online or stuff like that.

At least where I live, I always felt that if I didn't wear the proper "tag" to identify me as a woman, my very womanhood, my sexuality, my person, was denied, unnoticed. By "tag" I mean clothes from the right section, stereotypical signs of "I am a woman" ,apart from your physical self. I can't fit that standard, it would mean living in a painful lie, if it wasn't so then I would have given in and "adjusted" to "normality".

I guess I need to know if it's possible for men to notice me, to feel attracted to me, to want to get to know me as a person but also sexually, the way that I am, in the clothes that I wear, being who I am. It is very hard and feels quite dehumanizing to go through a good portion of your youth not receiving any positive signals of the kind and with no examples around you to offer any perspective.

Sorry for the depressive post and for it being long and maybe hard to read! I hope I posted it in the right area ,I wasn't sure but I figured it has to do with sexuality so..

 

[DarkPleasures]

I am wondering whether heterosexual men can like really masculine women.

Many men love KatieTay's muscular women thread she has, and it seems many are ready to cyber Musclegirl when she posts her ads all over Lit!

 

[gerrynylon]

I have PMd you. Hope it helps. X

 

[yandere]

I can really relate to your post, I've always been the same. I'm a really assertive person and never took the casual harassment from male peers that other girls I grew up around did.

People have made fun of me before for being "like one of the guys" or "kinda lesbian" before but I don't pay these people any mind. I am not a man or a lesbian, I am just me.

Being assertive and knowing what you want as a woman scares some people who are used to rigid gender roles (I grew up in/around the church). Sometimes even simple things like wearing the "wrong" clothes can make people feel uncomfortable. Pathetic and sad, in my opinion.

I know it can be frustrating but just try to stay positive. There are men out there who will love you. Just try to feel confident about yourself as much as you can!

 

[MILFSauce]

Yours is the dilemma of every person out there who has something about them that does not fit into the norm, statistically speaking.

Which is to say, every human being on earth.

Everyone has something about them that puts them outside the curve. I have mine, and it's so significant that it's affected my entire life. It just happens that it isn't visible.

You are very brave to post this, and I commend you. You are the only one who can decide what, if anything, you need to do about it. But as a woman nearly twice your age, will you allow me to offer a tiny bit of perspective ... ?

Ultimately, the strain of living with something that you're not completely satisfied with is far less than the strain of trying to be something you're not. So I think you are definitely on the right track to stick with your conscience, and simply be who you are. Many, many people take decades to learn that lesson, so you are definitely ahead of the game with it.

As for finding men who are attracted to you ... there a couple of ways you could go here. One way would be to concede a little bit to the cultural norms, and make yourself more "feminized", with hair, makeup, clothes, etc. I'm sure you could, if you wanted, find a happy medium that you could live with, without trying to make yourself look like Barbie.

Another way would be to simply continue the way you have been, but focus more attention on finding men who are attracted to your particular "type".

Either way you go, I'm pretty sure that there are plenty of men out there whose dick will get hard for you. Your challenge, as it is for everyone in this "find-a-partner" game we all play, is to find 'em! It's a fun game. Stack the deck in your favor!

I wish you the best of luck, honey. You sound like an intelligent, level-headed young woman. You deserve to find someone to love and who will love you back.

Keep us informed, will you?

*snuggles*
Carole

 

[dave's thing]

MILF says it right.
I was going to reply earlier but life got in the way... when I got back she had pretty much said, in a better way then I could, what I was going to say.
Feel free to contact e if you want, but I think you will do well by her advice.
Dave

 

[Desiremakesmeweak]

There is a strong social, maybe modern cultural, pressure on people to think that you must reach your peak sexual potential no later than sometime in your twenties.

While you are sitting there thinking that 'people don't notice you' just remember that all those that 'get noticed' early on often end up looking after babies and small children and their days of devil-may-care sexual exploits will suddenly hit a big big wall. And then you get the other side of the coin where people are all complaining that they don't get enough time or they haven't got enough energy, or their bodies are out of shape because of having kids, and so on.

The number one great 'secret' of being attractive sexually is to BE sexual.

What does that mean?

Being sexual means being open to sexual experience - genuinely open to it.

It could mean trying different looks or wearing prominent lipstick and mascara - but whatever the 'new' look you try doesn't at all mean that you are changing who you are.

Dressing for sex IS something that can make you anxious or nervous, or give you a feeling of heightened tension - so what though? It's no different from downhill skiing or going fast on a rollercoaster.

There is nothing at all more sexually attractive than being sexual, being sexually available and open to experience(s).

You can still reserve the right to say no or to use your discretion about what your limits will be.

There are many many people who are not sexually noticed until they reach quite a late age relatively speaking. There is this 'ugly duckling syndrome' that is much more prevalent in the porn industry, for one thing, than you would ever imagine. Many many very successful porn stars begin extremely late, and some of them are taken to be much younger than they actually are.

People are very very different, unique from person to person, really.

Popular norms of what is taken to be 'beautiful' or attractive to male heterosexuals are far from realistic expressions of what hetero males respond to.

The fact is, sexual attraction is still a type of negotiated process - what a person would or might do UNDER CERTAIN GIVEN CONDITIONS AND CIRCUMSTANCES. You have to make those conditions and circumstances right for the potential partner. But are there people attracted to you just as you are? Definitely. Probably more than you even think possible. Will they reveal their desires or interests to you?

Yes if you make it easy for them to do so.

 

[iamnotaprincess]

First, thank you all for the replies, I was a little afraid of writing this rather serious, no fun post on a site that celebrates sex and the fun I am sure is to be had from it.

I can really relate to your post, I've always been the same. I'm a really assertive person and never took the casual harassment from male peers that other girls I grew up around did.

People have made fun of me before for being "like one of the guys" or "kinda lesbian" before but I don't pay these people any mind. I am not a man or a lesbian, I am just me.

Being assertive and knowing what you want as a woman scares some people who are used to rigid gender roles (I grew up in/around the church). Sometimes even simple things like wearing the "wrong" clothes can make people feel uncomfortable. Pathetic and sad, in my opinion.

I know it can be frustrating but just try to stay positive. There are men out there who will love you. Just try to feel confident about yourself as much as you can!

I'm very smart and opinionated but I am not super assertive in that I am a mellow ,pacifist type that tries not to get into fights or hurt feelings and ,being a bit introverted, it is hard for me to be loud and center of anything. But it's true I don't take bullshit from anyone. Men never hit on me so there's no harassment there, I've only had men(usually teenage boys or early 20s douchebags) come up to me to mock what seems to be an ambiguity about my gender.

I always thought, growing up, that with my stereotypically male hobbies(which I find idiotic nowadays since even among the few people I know, the women like games, tv shows and cars) and my more masculine personality, I would be a catch for men because there would be none of those stereotypical problems since we'd like similar things, I like to have my own space and alone time, I'm not pushy and I don't demand to be treated like some uber special flower or for the man to do everything for me, I am not into shopping ,romantic comedies or even gossip.

In a way, I was right, I get along with men well, the few of them I know, I am like one of the guys and that is all I am.

A friend of mine from highschool(we've been friends for 10 years now), recently accidentally made it pretty obvious he just never even saw me as a girl or an attractive one at least. But of course he always said(even to his mother, with whom we are family friends too)that he is annoyed he can't find a woman with my personality. Now, it's fine with me that he doesn't fancy me because I never fancied him, generally I like more mature men and I've known him since he was just a teen. What disturbs me is the fact that, judging from what I've read and observed, men, especially younger ones, are very likely, more so than women even, to become at least sexually ,usually even romantically, attracted to their women friends, unless there's something really wrong with her.

It's hard to have any confidence when there's nothing you can use to give you any. I know I am smart, I know I am a good friend and have certain qualities, I know those things because they were proven to be so in my life. When it comes to being attractive and having any worth in that sense, romantically and sexually, I just have no proof that the world, or elements from within it, could perceive me as having these attributes, regardless of whether I have them in theory or not. I don't even have examples, since there's no one like me around that I can see.

Yours is the dilemma of every person out there who has something about them that does not fit into the norm, statistically speaking.

Which is to say, every human being on earth.

Everyone has something about them that puts them outside the curve. I have mine, and it's so significant that it's affected my entire life. It just happens that it isn't visible.

You are very brave to post this, and I commend you. You are the only one who can decide what, if anything, you need to do about it. But as a woman nearly twice your age, will you allow me to offer a tiny bit of perspective ... ?

Ultimately, the strain of living with something that you're not completely satisfied with is far less than the strain of trying to be something you're not. So I think you are definitely on the right track to stick with your conscience, and simply be who you are. Many, many people take decades to learn that lesson, so you are definitely ahead of the game with it.

As for finding men who are attracted to you ... there a couple of ways you could go here. One way would be to concede a little bit to the cultural norms, and make yourself more "feminized", with hair, makeup, clothes, etc. I'm sure you could, if you wanted, find a happy medium that you could live with, without trying to make yourself look like Barbie.

Another way would be to simply continue the way you have been, but focus more attention on finding men who are attracted to your particular "type".

Either way you go, I'm pretty sure that there are plenty of men out there whose dick will get hard for you. Your challenge, as it is for everyone in this "find-a-partner" game we all play, is to find 'em! It's a fun game. Stack the deck in your favor!

I wish you the best of luck, honey. You sound like an intelligent, level-headed young woman. You deserve to find someone to love and who will love you back.

Keep us informed, will you?

*snuggles*
Carole

Thank you for the kind and thoughtful reply!
I know most people have something about them that makes them feel different, luckily it's often not something so visible or that seems to make them more different than they are. Most people fall into the gender stereotype to some extent and use it to their advantage(men more than women since sexism still abounds ,but there's the false positive side of being the discriminated one and some women use that too) but for people who just don't fit that, the world often seems like a very black and white place, the realities of gender constraints and how mostly fabricated they are ,a painful thing you are always aware of but don't know how to change.

See, for me it is a tragic thing that I am always commended for being who I really am, staying true to who I am, being honest and all that, but then the messages I seem to get whenever I wonder if there's any chance for me, usually go towards the "adopt the gender stereotype at least a little" or accept your situation.

That doesn't make me upset with whoever says it so I am not upset at all, but I can't fall into a stereotype that I have no inclination towards. I've thought all about it, if I could live that way I'd paint my face and be the most stereotypical women ever, but I can't. It is hard to explain, hard to put into words what I feel when I even think about putting on something from the women's section or adopting any sort of feminine style, even if just a little, I have absolutely no desire for it, they don't represent anything I like. I thought long and hard that maybe I am a man, maybe I need to transition, but that's not for me, I am open to it, I was always open to it but it's not what I feel a need for

The clothes I wear are good quality, I don't buy a lot of them and they are all from the male dept. but I buy from good quality brands and I don't walk around in a suit and tie although I wear shirts, usually casual or smart casual, sweaters, polos, t-shirts. They're just not tailored the way they are tailored for women and I don't put my body on display. I am clean, I am educated, I don't stink and for men that is enough but for a woman apparently I'm not good enough unless I pluck all my hair and cover every imperfection and wear make up to enhance my look and make me look like I don't naturally look like.

I don't even feel like I am allowed to like anyone and I feel that showing any interest in anyone(which I never really learned to do anyway)would just make him feel bad and make me look like a fool because in the eyes of men I feel I am just never good enough, never an option. Now, at 26 years old and in my state I also feel like who is going to love me, the one no one ever wanted.

I am not abnormal looking, I'm not hideous or morbidly obese or anything ,why is it that everyone basically thinks that the way I am can only be attractive to a super small percentage of men, that doesn't even give me a chance, you don't choose who you fall for, who you want and everyone I liked didn't even know I exist.

This summer, I thought about taking a language course in Germany, precisely to put myself in a situation where I'd be able to meet people without me having to approach them out of the blue(which I can't do ,not successfully at least, being a bit introverted and so afraid). There was a guy who I found attractive and he was also a more quiet type but friendly. I don't show interest in any physical way, I don't send vibes, I never learned how to and I guess I am also repressed without wanting to be, since I can't even picture myself as a potential love interest to someone, but I tried to be friendly, to show I am interested in him as a person at least, make sure he knows who I am. I invited him to come with me and a colleague from my class(10x more introverted than I am so I figured it's ok) to go on a day trip to Prague. That was, I thought, my chance to shine because I am very good at travelling and showing people around(I even want to work in tourism)and had already visited Prague for a few hours a few years back. So, I arranged everything, took them to the train station ,bought us tickets, acted as a guide and because of me they saw more than they would have seen alone because I remembered where things were and they couldn't read a map. I made conversation, jokes,etc. This colleague of mine, barely said a few sentences and she had this quality of always looking very closed off(very introverted woman she was and not even better looking, only a bit more stereotypical). What happened? By the end of my stay in Germany, I noticed the guy was attracted to her. He didn't tell her or act on it but even a friend of mine who stayed in the same building with them, noticed. They wouldn't have spoken if it wasn't for me and at the end it was her he liked although he got along better with me, I guess I was one of the guys again. That finished in tears cause I did my best, the little I am able to do.

I want to be good enough and lovable and desirable as I am, not in spite of it, I can't change what is a basic part of my identity, I didn't choose it, it's not my fault yet I pay for how I am and I feel like I've destroyed my life.

It's even worse that the one big female thing about me, my sexuality, is something I could never explore or share with anyone outside masturbation, it hurts profoundly and I feel that my needs, sexual and romantic, for intimacy and all that comes with it, never mattered, mean absolutely nothing and having them fulfilled is a joy I can never experience. It's very lonely and my childhood, with my father dying when I was a teenager and having no real friends, facing mockery, doesn't provide me with any comfort or strength, just more wounds.

I read this forum and it's like a world I can't grasp, the notion that sex is something most people have, that you can have a sex life and a relationship, intimacy, that you can share and explore things and enjoy them. I don't know how that is like and I don't how it feels like to feel wanted, I fear I'll die this way and I don't want that.

 

[StrongMaster7]

You are articulate and smart. That puts you way ahead of 99% of the people out there. Please relax and just be yourself. If you enjoy yourself and your life, you will attract others. Then you can pick and choose.

Please don't worry about what the world expects or wants you to be. Be yourself. There is someone, usually many someones, for everyone.

Please don't suffer in silence. If you don't want to reach out to someone here, get some good counseling. Confidence takes time, but fake it til you make it.

You are not alone. Ever. I wish you every good thing life has to offer.

 

[yandere]

You are articulate and smart. That puts you way ahead of 99% of the people out there. Please relax and just be yourself. If you enjoy yourself and your life, you will attract others. Then you can pick and choose.

Please don't worry about what the world expects or wants you to be. Be yourself. There is someone, usually many someones, for everyone.

Please don't suffer in silence. If you don't want to reach out to someone here, get some good counseling. Confidence takes time, but fake it til you make it.

You are not alone. Ever. I wish you every good thing life has to offer.

"fake it til you make it" is the best advice. Every single thing in life I've been afraid to do or try, I just forced myself to do it until it wasn't so difficult anymore.

 

[nfrrdscnnr1]

from whom?

From whom did you learn who you are? What did they teach you? Was your childhood happy? Who were the influences in your early life? Are they still in your life?
If you are not happy and content as your life is, have you considered making modifications? Might some help be in order?
If a person as you describe yourself to be had been in my world when I was your age, I'd have been all over you.

 

[iamnotaprincess]

From whom did you learn who you are? What did they teach you? Was your childhood happy? Who were the influences in your early life? Are they still in your life?
If you are not happy and content as your life is, have you considered making modifications? Might some help be in order?
If a person as you describe yourself to be had been in my world when I was your age, I'd have been all over you.

What do u mean about learning who I am?
My childhood was happy on the surface in the sense that I was born in family with financial stability, a family of intellectuals, with a good mother and I was healthy. Emotionally I think I was never happy. My most happy I've been on travels, but even then the burden of my loneliness and lack of intimacy is weighing down, regardless if I think about it or not. So, I think I was never profoundly happy.

There were hard moments I seem to have gotten over very easily at that time but now I realize they were traumatic deep down. When I was little my parents split up(didn't divorce though) so until the age of 7 dad was basically a guest. Then we all moved in one house(they weren't together but mom convinced dad to live in the same house so I could have both parents around more). But when I was 14 he got cancer and died. Rest of the family is not close, we don't interact with most of them and I don't even like them much.
When I was in school, starting from secondary school, I got sort of fat and got mildly mocked about it at times. Never had many friends and in secondary the school friends I had pretty much used me cause I would buy them juice and sweets from the store and treat them at mcdonalds(I am stupidly giving).

I think my influence was one grandpa but he also died a year before dad. I owe a lot to him cause he nurtured my curiosity and thirst for knowledge in general, for politics, took me to the theater, etc.

I am not happy with my life, I pretty much find I probably ruined my future. I graduated from university and have a masters but that doesn't mean much without experience and I am so anxious about getting a job(what if I can't do it, what if they don't like me because I am not how they expect me to be,etc),the job market is bad too so at 26 I don't even have a job yet. But worst of all is that I feel so alone and as if people just can't tune in to my frequency and see the worth and beauty I know is there.

Not being able to live out my sexuality and fulfill my deep need for full affection and intimacy is also something that is making me absolutely miserable no matter what I do or think about, it is like this heavy weight I carry with me all the time and my brain is shouting at me non stop to give it what it needs but I can't. My mother is a great person but her life hasn't been a blast either as you can imagine so I can't really rely on her emotionally. She's touchy-feely but her occasional hugs or whatever, are the only physical comfort I get, I'm not even used to being touched outside a handshake or something, I want it, I need it and crave it but even with that I need help to get used to it This means I can't initiate it either, it doesn't come natural to me and I could never touch a man first no matter how much I wanted to.

A lot of the time I feel like the only thing my sexuality can produce is embarrassment ,make people uncomfortable, because I feel they don't see me as a potentially sexual being with needs and feelings of the kind. It's stupid but I could never learn to see myself through the eyes of others in that way, you learn that through example and I had none.

As for faking it til I make it...I don't have the tools to do it when it comes to this matter of dating and sex. I am like a 12 year old girl in terms of experience, I need to learn. And I am not happy with the life I live. By that I don't mean I don't like myself or I that I personally think I am wrong, I don't think that and I would be very openly proud and confident with who I am if I saw that people, at least sometimes, see in me what I see in myself. I'm not happy because I am so in need of affection and all the other things and it's a need I've always had to just push back ,it is taking all I have to just keep going on and I lack hope.

I'm seeing a therapist, I have for years, because a few years back I was depressed and thought it would do me good. Now, with other things he's been able to help, we get along great and I feel he's done a good job but when it comes to finding a love life and that sort of thing...there's just not much he can do.

Once I read that asking for help is also a way of fighting and a means of helping yourself so I am seeking help but there's no one who seems to care enough or be able to help me somehow.