Exploiting psychology in stories

[StoryOfMy_Life]

I'm fascinated by psychology. As an amateur, I read several journals regularly.

Roy F. Baumeister, Department of Psychology, Florida State University,
and Kathleen D. Vohs, Faculty of Commerce, Marketing Division, University of British Columbia

Have an interesting theory and paper, "Sexual Economics: Sex as Female Resource for Social Exchange in Heterosexual Interactions."

The abstract is available at http://psr.sagepub.com/content/8/4/339.short

The paper is extensively cited including by Anna Mikulak with a short accessible article: "Women Find Sexually Explicit Ads Unappealing — Unless the Price Is Right" http://www.psychologicalscience.org...ds-unappealing-unless-the-price-is-right.html

Can and should we use psychology in our stories? Can and should we cynically manipulate the "economics" of sexual exchange?

For Romance genre fans, does psychological research help explain the appeal of some plots?

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Spam Alert

 

[StoryOfMy_Life]

Spam?
I don't think anybody makes money by citing abstracts of academic papers.
Boring maybe, but spam?

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Abstracts are STEALTH SPAM, the worst kind. They hide subliminal messages to buy the collected papers of B.F.Skinner and vacation at the APAs Amazon Jungle ONE TRIAL LEARNING ADVENTURE Camp. Learn whats in your black box!

 

[StoryOfMy_Life]

You'll have to elaborate before I'll understand what you mean. How can I introduce a topic about psychology without citing the relevant abstracts?

Are you anti-academic or against citing sources or don't like journals or what?

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

You'll have to elaborate before I'll understand what you mean. How can I introduce a topic about psychology without citing the relevant abstracts?

Are you anti-academic or against citing sources or don't like journals or what?

Pretty much.

 

[sr71plt]

It's sort of silly to suggest that psychology isn't involved in every erotic story, though. There's really no discussion to be had on that topic.

 

[StoryOfMy_Life]

I agree. Psychology is in every human endeavor. But why no discussion? We discuss how to punctuate sentences. Sentences and punctuation are in every story.

I'm trying to understand if/why some scenarios are appealing almost exclusively to men and others almost exclusively to women. There are stories that appeal equally to both genders. What story elements push a story into one camp or another?

The idea of making sex seem scarce, shaming women who make it seem too available, and fantasizing about attracting prince charming seem almost exclusively heterosexual female fantasies. I admit I'm making a lot of assumptions. Wanting sex without strings, praising women who make it available, and being Casanova are common heterosexual male fantasies. Is it possible for a single story to have both aesthetics?

Then there is the "I’m Not The Kind Of Girl You Bring Home To Mom" genre with twists appealing to one gender or another.

 

[3113]

Story, arguing with JBJ is a losing battle. He's on most of our ignore lists.

As for discussing psychology, I'm with SR7. Why do we need to discuss putting it in stories? Whether it's right or we're exploiting it if we do? What else DO writers do in stories than explore the psychology of their characters? And they've been doing this since Homer. Shakespeare certainly did it with every soliloquy. It's neither new, nor special, nor shocking, nor morally ambiguous. So what is there to discuss about it?

Now, if there's a particular branch of psychology or fetishes you want to discuss, by all means, post it as a topic here on it and certain people equally interested in discussing it with you will do so.

OR if you want to discuss stories with psychiatry as the theme, then, again, by all means direct this topic that way and people who love tales of psychiatrists or people with certain psychiatric problems trying to cure them via sex will jump in. But either way, you need to be more specific. What, exactly, do you want to discuss here? And how does it relate to erotic tales?

 

[Hypoxia]

You'll have to elaborate before I'll understand what you mean.

You have been trolled. Don't feed the troll.

There is a long science fiction tradition of basing stories on new discoveries or hypotheses. Erotica tales could follow the same path with psychological discoveries and models. Go for it!

 

[3113]

I'm trying to understand if/why some scenarios are appealing almost exclusively to men and others almost exclusively to women. There are stories that appeal equally to both genders. What story elements push a story into one camp or another?

Edit your OP and put this in it. Or start a fresh topic with a clearer topic sentence. This we can discuss.

And sex without strings...that's not psychology. That's biology. We crave sex, and young men especially crave it. Hormones drive us to want it, like cravings for sugar or coffee. If something stands in the way of our getting it—like the other person doesn't want to give it to us unless we jump through hoops, then our fantasies will be of getting it with no jumping through hoops. Just like every other fantasy of getting what we want free and easy. You might as well ask why people fantasize about winning the lottery.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Story, arguing with JBJ is a losing battle. He's on most of our ignore lists.

As for discussing psychology, I'm with SR7. Why do we need to discuss putting it in stories? Whether it's right or we're exploiting it if we do? What else DO writers do in stories than explore the psychology of their characters? And they've been doing this since Homer. Shakespeare certainly did it with every soliloquy. It's neither new, nor special, nor shocking, nor morally ambiguous. So what is there to discuss about it?

Now, if there's a particular branch of psychology or fetishes you want to discuss, by all means, post it as a topic here on it and certain people equally interested in discussing it with you will do so.

OR if you want to discuss stories with psychiatry as the theme, then, again, by all means direct this topic that way and people who love tales of psychiatrists or people with certain psychiatric problems trying to cure them via sex will jump in. But either way, you need to be more specific. What, exactly, do you want to discuss here? And how does it relate to erotic tales?

And 3113 is on the stall walls of most public restrooms. The male LIT membership has her on iggy.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I agree. Psychology is in every human endeavor. But why no discussion? We discuss how to punctuate sentences. Sentences and punctuation are in every story.

I'm trying to understand if/why some scenarios are appealing almost exclusively to men and others almost exclusively to women. There are stories that appeal equally to both genders. What story elements push a story into one camp or another?

The idea of making sex seem scarce, shaming women who make it seem too available, and fantasizing about attracting prince charming seem almost exclusively heterosexual female fantasies. I admit I'm making a lot of assumptions. Wanting sex without strings, praising women who make it available, and being Casanova are common heterosexual male fantasies. Is it possible for a single story to have both aesthetics?

Then there is the "I’m Not The Kind Of Girl You Bring Home To Mom" genre with twists appealing to one gender or another.

Sure, if youre a Michael Jackson fanatic.

 

[StoryOfMy_Life]

I was thinking about Rick James - "Super Freak" when I wrote that. Did Mr. Jackson incorporate the same theme?

To narrow the discussion...
Lets start with the "super freak" characterization. It appeals to men for all the reasons Rick James endorses in his song (which I won't link because of spam accusations). It appeals to some woman because it's liberating and taboo and a license to relish unabashed carnal pleasure. (who wouldn't fantasize about that?)

Of course, the flip side is "good girl gets the man" and "you're the kind he screws and not the kind he marries." Then there is the potential shaming aspect.

On a related note, one theory for the popularity of bodice rippers is the notion that the "good girl" craves unabashed carnal pleasure and is released from any culpability for those desires by the fantasy rape scenario. It's a way to be the good girl and the super freak at the same time.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I was thinking about Rick James - "Super Freak" when I wrote that. Dis Mr. Jackson incorporate the same theme?

I was thinking the same. But its impossible fantasy. I cant imagine any female wanting a man who's her best friend girl and stud. Unless she's Wiccan. They groove on bizarre combinations and permutations.

 

[3113]

Of course, the flip side is "good girl gets the man" and "your the kind he screws and not the kind he marries." Then there is the potential shaming aspect.

Putting on Freud glasses. You mentioned that before. Is that what you really want to discuss? The erotic aspects of embarrassment and social shame?

Keep in mind that both erotica and romance are fantasies. Of course a woman might want to fantasize about doing anything and everything she wants with no social (or medical for that matter) consequences.

But in the real world, women can get pregnant and sixty years of contraception hasn't gotten us past the social ramifications of that. Social "shame" is there to make sure a woman and a man take care of the kids they create. And women who want children and a man to be there after he fathers them may still, because of this, look down on women who have sex with a lot of men, vs. them who hold off waiting for the right man. Their fantasy is to be rewarded for their social morality and fidelity to the man who eventually will be theirs "forever."

That's, yet another fantasy—not having to kiss (or have sex) with many frogs, but to have the perfect prince show up (who needs sex with a lot of guys when one perfect one will do?) and live happily ever after with him.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I was thinking about Rick James - "Super Freak" when I wrote that. Did Mr. Jackson incorporate the same theme?

To narrow the discussion...
Lets start with the "super freak" characterization. It appeals to men for all the reasons Rick James endorses in his song (which I won't link because of spam accusations). It appeals to some woman because it's liberating and taboo and a license to relish unabashed carnal pleasure. (who wouldn't fantasize about that?)

It's an adorable song. It appeals to -- some, not all-- women, because James truly celebrates the woman and at every point in the song, speaks of her as theperson who made all the decisions to do what she does.

You may or may not have any idea of how rare that is.

Of course a few years later he and his wife removed all agency from a woman who hadn't agreed to any of it... Well. Consent is good shit.

Of course, the flip side is "good girl gets the man" and "you're the kind he screws and not the kind he marries." Then there is the potential shaming aspect.

Shaming is nowadays a well-documented kink-- it works because the kinkster (the woman being shamed, that is,) really doesn't believe that she's shameful. It's fun for an evening.

On a related note, one theory for the popularity of bodice rippers is the notion that the "good girl" craves unabashed carnal pleasure and is released from any culpability for those desires by the fantasy rape scenario. It's a way to be the good girl and the super freak at the same time.

That would be the most generally compelling theory, yes. If you add in the theory that the fantasy rapist is exactly the guy she wanted all that time, not any old smelly diseased loser, you've got a working theory.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

It's an adorable song. It appeals to -- some, not all-- women, because James truly celebrates the woman and at every point in the song, speaks of her as theperson who made all the decisions to do what she does.

You may or may not have any idea of how rare that is.

Of course a few years later he and his wife removed all agency from a woman who hadn't agreed to any of it... Well. Consent is good shit.

Shaming is nowadays a well-documented kink-- it works because the kinkster (the woman being shamed, that is,) really doesn't believe that she's shameful. It's fun for an evening.
That would be the most generally compelling theory, yes. If you add in the theory that the fantasy rapist is exactly the guy she wanted all that time, not any old smelly diseased loser, you've got a working theory.

Jesus Christ! You look like Poppy Bush! Did you slip over to the Dark Side?

 

[Desiremakesmeweak]

Pyschology, like every other form of religion, especially those in which a master's degree is claimed to guarantee you a place in heaven, is nowadays highly sectarian. Which is very unfortunate because there is so much of incredible value inside psychology, if it only could be left un-raped for a second by the modern commercialised careerists.

This I do know though, as a matter of arithmetic and experience - certain words in the titles of stories I post here automatically attract five to ten times as many readers as those titles that are less simplisticaly and directly sexually provocative.

My conclusion is equivalently very simplistic:

1. many people in reality have inferiority complexes and insecurity about their own sexual, let's say, 'prowess' rather than capabilities;

2. many many people privately rush towards what they regard as unrealistic fantasies because they assume they cannot fulfil these scenarios in real life - and use the fantasy as one means of 'somewhat' attaining the fantasy;

3. I don't think there is much actual psychology driving people's interest in porn stories or particular kinds of porn - it's more a practical thing, in that it provides relatively easy access to something without too much consequence;

I have once or twice considered this idea of sexual economy and personally I think it isn't a socio-political or a false or propagandised thing - even though it may appear to be. It's the same thing as trying to tell people not to invest in the stock market or in real estate because these economies are highly artificial. Yes they are highly artificial but only because people ACTUALLY WANT to believe the lies rather than the truth.

It's the same as making it seem that 'fat' and body image drive people to over-use surgery, and that people should 'learn to love their bodies' instead. They don't HATE their bodies - they hate and fear the pain and effort of naturally USING their bodies the way their bodies naturally require to be used.

Many people use religions, too, for example, as the target of blame for their own sexual inhibitions and inadequacies.

'Exploiting' psychological understandings, frankly, is difficult although attractive to consider, because people who NEED psychological input never use it, as far as I can see!

I tend not to look at seriously sexually flawed or damaged or inhibited characters for use in stories - I don't think I've ever had a rl relationship with a seriously sexually flawed or damaged or inhibited person in any case.

What would happen if sex were radically more 'available' and the economic value of it were significantly lessened... The world would be like Literotica, I suppose.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Pyschology, like every other form of religion, especially those in which a master's degree is claimed to guarantee you a place in heaven, is nowadays highly sectarian. Which is very unfortunate because there is so much of incredible value inside psychology, if it only could be left un-raped for a second by the modern commercialised careerists.

This I do know though, as a matter of arithmetic and experience - certain words in the titles of stories I post here automatically attract five to ten times as many readers as those titles that are less simplisticaly and directly sexually provocative.

My conclusion is equivalently very simplistic:

1. many people in reality have inferiority complexes and insecurity about their own sexual, let's say, 'prowess' rather than capabilities;

2. many many people privately rush towards what they regard as unrealistic fantasies because they assume they cannot fulfil these scenarios in real life - and use the fantasy as one means of 'somewhat' attaining the fantasy;

3. I don't think there is much actual psychology driving people's interest in porn stories or particular kinds of porn - it's more a practical thing, in that it provides relatively easy access to something without too much consequence;

I have once or twice considered this idea of sexual economy and personally I think it isn't a socio-political or a false or propagandised thing - even though it may appear to be. It's the same thing as trying to tell people not to invest in the stock market or in real estate because these economies are highly artificial. Yes they are highly artificial but only because people ACTUALLY WANT to believe the lies rather than the truth.

It's the same as making it seem that 'fat' and body image drive people to over-use surgery, and that people should 'learn to love their bodies' instead. They don't HATE their bodies - they hate and fear the pain and effort of naturally USING their bodies the way their bodies naturally require to be used.

Many people use religions, too, for example, as the target of blame for their own sexual inhibitions and inadequacies.

'Exploiting' psychological understandings, frankly, is difficult although attractive to consider, because people who NEED psychological input never use it, as far as I can see!

I tend not to look at seriously sexually flawed or damaged or inhibited characters for use in stories - I don't think I've ever had a rl relationship with a seriously sexually flawed or damaged or inhibited person in any case.

What would happen if sex were radically more 'available' and the economic value of it were significantly lessened... The world would be like Literotica, I suppose.

When I read crap like this I feel sad that I wasted so much time and money going to grad school. I could come to LIT U for free.

 

[HeyAll]

I agree that psychology is the essence of a good erotic story.

After all, there's no pictures to look at. There's nothing visual. So you have to present the reader with something, and that's pushing their psychological buttons. You're playing to people's fantasies and what not.

As for how to add more psychology or to exploit it? I wish I knew how. I've got no clue. I'm not a psychologist.

 

[Desiremakesmeweak]

And I just HAVE to say this - I knew a really important psychologist once who would quite certainly have said: 'sex IS a liberation. If an ugly fat poor person gets sexual satisfaction via Literotica, this would and SHOULD be a source of envy and jealousy to rich good-looking thin people in L.A. and N.Y. who are not getting sexual satisfaction. Good sex is its own reward and it has an intrinsic and a real value. Besides which, vulnerability is sexually attractive, and being an ugly fat poor person BUT WHO CAN YET BE SEXUALLY SATISFIED is potentially interesting.'

The question is - can literary sex be satisfying?

I know that it can be necessary like a drug of addiction...

If a rich good looking and fit and healthy person gets forms of sexual satisfaction via reading erotic stories, there is not much of a psychological lesson I can draw from that, I guess.

Now if a poor ugly fat person... can turn their life towards somehow becoming a rich good looking healthy-sized person, now you're really talking!

 

[Hypoxia]

The question is - can literary sex be satisfying?

Erotica can certainly be enlightening and educational. Just don't insert live gerbils into one's anus.

 

[PayDay]

Your personal psychology is in every story you write as well as your personal psychological take on society.

 

[HeyAll]

And I just HAVE to say this - I knew a really important psychologist once who would quite certainly have said: 'sex IS a liberation. If an ugly fat poor person gets sexual satisfaction via Literotica, this would and SHOULD be a source of envy and jealousy to rich good-looking thin people in L.A. and N.Y. who are not getting sexual satisfaction. Good sex is its own reward and it has an intrinsic and a real value. Besides which, vulnerability is sexually attractive, and being an ugly fat poor person BUT WHO CAN YET BE SEXUALLY SATISFIED is potentially interesting.'


The question is - can literary sex be satisfying?

Nice post.

And I think the answer to your question is yes.

I once read a nonconcent story by the famous Powerone, and I had an orgasm so good, it was like sex.

Obviously a story can never ever replace the feeling of being with another person, but a story can push your buttons in a way another person can't.