A POV question for the ladies...

[Dylan_Anderson]

I love this site and I love writing. Since coming to this site I've dipped into writing the erotic stuff and I'm enjoying it. I'm now thinking about taking the plunge and writing something to post on here and see what response I get.

I find I enjoy writing with a female reader in mind (thanks to the few Lit'ers out there that were kind enough to read some rough works via PM). Don't ask me why I enjoy this, I just do.

My question for the ladies is what perspective do you prefer? First person or third person? Male characters point of view or female characters point of view?

What POV gets you interested the most? What gets you turned on easier?

 

[PennLady]

I love this site and I love writing. Since coming to this site I've dipped into writing the erotic stuff and I'm enjoying it. I'm now thinking about taking the plunge and writing something to post on here and see what response I get.

I find I enjoy writing with a female reader in mind (thanks to the few Lit'ers out there that were kind enough to read some rough works via PM). Don't ask me why I enjoy this, I just do.

My question for the ladies is what perspective do you prefer? First person or third person? Male characters point of view or female characters point of view?

What POV gets you interested the most? What gets you turned on easier?

There's no one thing that appeals to all women. Some will like first-person stories, others will like third-person, some will like the guy's POV, others the woman's, and still others a mix of the two. And don't forget that some women are bi or gay, and may not be so interested in a hetero relationship, or a one-on-one relationship.

We all want to appeal to readers, but you can't write by committee, or piecemeal. The best thing to do is simply tell a good story -- your story, the way you think it should be told. I've written most of my stories in third-person, but have also done two in first-person, because it felt like the best way to tell those particular stories.

 

[Lovetolisten]

I agree with PennLady. There is no way to write something that is going to appeal to everyone. Unless you're writing children's books.

 

[sr71plt]

Literotica mantra #2: There are audiences at Literotica for whatever perspective you write, so write the one that seems most sensible to you.

 

[lovecraft68]

I think the writing more than the POV will dictate the appeal to a story.

My wife reads a hell of a lot more stories on here than I do and she's never said, "I started that, but when I saw it was a man's point of view I clicked off"

If the stories good I don't see where it matters.

I do think when a story is written from female pov what may happen is a lot of people wondering if it really is a woman. Bu again I don't think it affects enjoyment of the tale.

 

[PennLady]

I think the writing more than the POV will dictate the appeal to a story.

My wife reads a hell of a lot more stories on here than I do and she's never said, "I started that, but when I saw it was a man's point of view I clicked off"

If the stories good I don't see where it matters.

I do think when a story is written from female pov what may happen is a lot of people wondering if it really is a woman. Bu again I don't think it affects enjoyment of the tale.

I would hazard a guess, based on nothing in particular, that many romances (perhaps especially) are written from a woman's POV, but not exclusively. Presumably that's because women are the primary audience and the authors (or publishers) feel that's what would appeal more.

I doubt (again just guessing) that anyone really cares if the author of a story is in fact the same sex as the narrator. Unless, perhaps, it's stated that "this is a true story" or based on true events, or whatever.

But like I said, I'm just guessing. And there are too many people out there to guess what appeals to a large bloc of them.

 

[Dylan_Anderson]

There's no one thing that appeals to all women. Some will like first-person stories, others will like third-person, some will like the guy's POV, others the woman's, and still others a mix of the two. And don't forget that some women are bi or gay, and may not be so interested in a hetero relationship, or a one-on-one relationship.

I get that everyone is different etc. I'm just looking an idea of individuals preferences and nuances for curiosity sake and maybe get some writing ideas.

I think you're write though, when it comes down to it, story is king (or queen? )

thanks for the input.

 

[sr71plt]

I doubt (again just guessing) that anyone really cares if the author of a story is in fact the same sex as the narrator. Unless, perhaps, it's stated that "this is a true story" or based on true events, or whatever.

Apparently there are those who care (like there are some folks that do like/not like just about anything here on Literotica). We had a thread specifically on this a few months back and there were posts about wanting to know the gender of the author/narrator and only wanting to read those written by a specific gender (assuming they could tell).

 

[desertslave]

I've just finished reading a pairs of books (duologies?) and another novel where the POV switched, chapter by chapter, from the female to male protagonist in third person. I was a little put off at first, but in both cases the stories were good, both POV's were interesting, so they were all enjoyable reads.

The only case I simply cannot stand is first person past tense. The "I did this and you did that" stuff WILL make me click away almost immediately.

 

[PennLady]

I get that everyone is different etc. I'm just looking an idea of individuals preferences and nuances for curiosity sake and maybe get some writing ideas.

I think you're write though, when it comes down to it, story is king (or queen? )

thanks for the input.

The problem is that there are so many individuals with their own preferences that I'm not sure how helpful it would be to know too many of them. You might talk to one person who likes damsel-in-distress stories, and another who hates those.

Apparently there are those who care (like there are some folks that do like/not like just about anything here on Literotica). We had a thread specifically on this a few months back and there were posts about wanting to know the gender of the author/narrator and only wanting to read those written by a specific gender (assuming they could tell).

I wonder if that's more of an issue on a site like this as opposed to real life. I mean, certainly a lot of people publish under pen names of the opposite gender but I wonder how many readers even think about that.

I've just finished reading a pairs of books (duologies?) and another novel where the POV switched, chapter by chapter, from the female to male protagonist in third person. I was a little put off at first, but in both cases the stories were good, both POV's were interesting, so they were all enjoyable reads.

The only case I simply cannot stand is first person past tense. The "I did this and you did that" stuff WILL make me click away almost immediately.

I have to say your last point surprises me. Although I personally dislike first person present tense, generally speaking, so I guess it's not unusual to find someone who dislikes past tense. I guess for me, past tense makes more sense - you're hearing/reading a story after it's taken place, so naturally events are in the past.

Backing up, I have read books that switch POVs in various ways and it doesn't bother me, so long as everything is consistent and it's clear whose POV you're reading.

 

[desertslave]

I have to say your last point surprises me. Although I personally dislike first person present tense, generally speaking, so I guess it's not unusual to find someone who dislikes past tense. I guess for me, past tense makes more sense - you're hearing/reading a story after it's taken place, so naturally events are in the past.

Backing up, I have read books that switch POVs in various ways and it doesn't bother me, so long as everything is consistent and it's clear whose POV you're reading.

I realized after I hit send that I said that all wrong. I think it's really second person nebulous tense (which is why I dislike it so much). It tends to be mostly narrative and reminds me of little kids playing and telling each other what to do.

"You come in the door and smile when our eyes meet. You ask me what's for dinner and frown when I tell you 'meatloaf, again.' You decide we should go out for Chinese instead and tell me to change into hot pants and a skimpy blouse."

It reads like someone giving instructions to someone else. Argh!

 

[PennLady]

I realized after I hit send that I said that all wrong. I think it's really second person nebulous tense (which is why I dislike it so much). It tends to be mostly narrative and reminds me of little kids playing and telling each other what to do.

"You come in the door and smile when our eyes meet. You ask me what's for dinner and frown when I tell you 'meatloaf, again.' You decide we should go out for Chinese instead and tell me to change into hot pants and a skimpy blouse."

It reads like someone giving instructions to someone else. Argh!

LOL Sorry -- although I'm sure there are people who don't like first-person past-tense.

Yeah, I've found few people who like the "you" construction. My empirical evidence (i.e., forum posts by people who've written such stories) shows that most of the people who write them are doing two things. One, writing for a specific person who likes specific things. Two, trying to draw the reader into the story by making the "you" kind of general.

These seem to have limited appeal to a wider audience. First, because the reader is not the specific person the story is written for. Second, because as you say, people don't like being told what to do; they don't want to be the "you." I've found, judging by feedback and such, that people prefer to relate to characters in a story, but they don't want to *be* a character in a story.

 

[_Lynn_]

I would hazard a guess, based on nothing in particular, that many romances (perhaps especially) are written from a woman's POV, but not exclusively. Presumably that's because women are the primary audience and the authors (or publishers) feel that's what would appeal more.

I doubt (again just guessing) that anyone really cares if the author of a story is in fact the same sex as the narrator. Unless, perhaps, it's stated that "this is a true story" or based on true events, or whatever.

But like I said, I'm just guessing. And there are too many people out there to guess what appeals to a large bloc of them.

And yet, at least 75% of the feedback on the romance stories I have out comes from men.

 

[PennLady]

And yet, at least 75% of the feedback on the romance stories I have out comes from men.

Yes, I have gotten a lot of feedback from men, too. But still I think the "business," if you will, sees it as a female-dominated audience.

Kind of like I was reading this article today on why women don't direct the blockbuster, superhero movies and one reason that gets thrown around is that the audience they're aiming for is men. Yet something like 52% of the audience is women -- and I would agree, as I'm part of it.

 

[_Lynn_]

Yes, I have gotten a lot of feedback from men, too. But still I think the "business," if you will, sees it as a female-dominated audience.

Kind of like I was reading this article today on why women don't direct the blockbuster, superhero movies and one reason that gets thrown around is that the audience they're aiming for is men. Yet something like 52% of the audience is women -- and I would agree, as I'm part of it.

Right. And I wonder if I would get the same amount of feedback on those same stories if readers thought I was male.

 

[sr71plt]

I realized after I hit send that I said that all wrong. I think it's really second person nebulous tense (which is why I dislike it so much). It tends to be mostly narrative and reminds me of little kids playing and telling each other what to do.

"You come in the door and smile when our eyes meet. You ask me what's for dinner and frown when I tell you 'meatloaf, again.' You decide we should go out for Chinese instead and tell me to change into hot pants and a skimpy blouse."

It reads like someone giving instructions to someone else. Argh!

*sigh* That's not second person. It's told in first person. "our eyes meet"; "you ask me"; "I tell you"; "You decide we"; "tell me." It's all told from the perspective of "me." First person.

I almost never have seen someone talk about the second person here who wasn't actually looking at first person, just with "you" thrown in here and there. Second person would be told from inside the head of the "you." Once you slip back into the perspective of the "me," you are in first person. This is the biggest reason second person is hard to do and hardly actually exists. It's hard to sustain a story completely in the head of another character than the narrator.

 

[3113]

What would you call that pov?

What POV gets you interested the most? What gets you turned on easier?

I think it's easier to tell you what turns us off rather than what turns us on. And I think pretty universally most readers (men and women) don't like what we tend to call "second person" but as sr7 points out, is really first person...er, first person personal? Faux 2nd person?

It's very popular with erotica writers--as they just write down what they want their fantasy lover to do to them and how they'll react when he/she ("you") does it, but not so much with readers. Not saying it's always a turn-off, just that it's probably at the bottom of the list pov-wise.

*sigh* That's not second person. It's told in first person. "our eyes meet"; "you ask me"; "I tell you"; "You decide we"; "tell me." It's all told from the perspective of "me." First person.

Granted. True second person would sound like a cookbook or one of those adventure games ("You meet a dragon and draw your sword..."). "You do X, Y, Z" and there is no "me" or "I" involved. But I don't think we should call it "first person" and nothing else. There should be a particular name to distinguish this first person ("You follow me into the bedroom...") with it's use of "You" from the regular first person ("he followed me into the bedroom...").

I rather like "faux second person" myself.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Second person present tense happens a lot in Homestuck fan fiction, and because the readers expect it, it goes over quite well. However even Homestuck fans won't much enjoy second person in any other venue...

As far as what women enjoy, one thing I know is quite popular is a thorough exploration of the emotional enjoyment of the 'bottom' partner, the one being done unto. If the inside of the head is the 'top,' the one doing, many women like to get the impression that the doer is being done unto -- possibly swept away by the power of emotion (This seems to be true for many men as well).

 

[sr71plt]

Granted. True second person would sound like a cookbook or one of those adventure games ("You meet a dragon and draw your sword..."). "You do X, Y, Z" and there is no "me" or "I" involved.

It wouldn't have to be that surface. You could delve into the mind of the "you," revealing thoughts and motivations on top of and informing the action. That would be true second person. It also wouldn't take long for both writer and reader to be asking "Why bother?"

Yes, it would be nice to find another name for first person that bounces a lot of "you" words in. What not to call it, though, is second person.

Maybe we could call it "you-tortured first person."

 

[Stella_Omega]

or "first-to-second person narrative?"

 

[sr71plt]

or "first-to-second person narrative?"

No, because this is what is wrong with any connection to second person perspective. It's not giving the second person's perspective. It's not being narrated by the second person in any fashion. It's just the first person telling what the second person is doing.

 

[slyc_willie]

Maybe we could call it "you-tortured first person."

Or, "you tortured first person."

I have only once tried to write a story that wasn't either first person, past tense, or third person, past tense. I couldn't keep the tense straight as I continued. It's so much easier to write in past tense, probably because it flows better in the author's mind to write as if recounting something that has already happened. The majority of things we read are documents about something that has already occurred. We've trained ourselves to expect that from anything written.

I gave second person writing a try, once, at least I think it was second person. The story was about a robot being controlled by its programmer, so the point of view was from the robot while the commanding voice was that of the programmer. I was trying to project the feeling of being the robot onto the reader. So, the author was telling the robot (the reader) what was happening around him, in present tense.

I think something like that could work, and possibly even be effective, but I didn't have the patience for it then.

 

[Stella_Omega]

No, because this is what is wrong with any connection to second person perspective. It's not giving the second person's perspective. It's not being narrated by the second person in any fashion. It's just the first person telling what the second person is doing.

It is a narrative told in first person to second person.

first to second.

 

[sr71plt]

First-to-second “perspective” of desertslave’s example would be:

You come in the door and smile with pleasure when our eyes meet. Happy to see that I have taken time and care and worn something dressy and met you in the foyer, you ask me what’s for dinner and frown, thinking that I am still mad at you from this morning’s argument, when I tell you, "Meatloaf, again." Wanting to make me completely forget about the argument, you decide we should go out for Chinese instead and, thinking of what we could be doing instead of fighting, tell me to change into hot pants and a skimpy blouse.

In this one, the narrative is still first person, but we are at least put into the mind of the “you.” So, a mix of perspective (actually a contorted flip-flopping of perspective). And this is what folks are often identifying as second person here. But it's not. It's still all in the perspective of the "I." It just is making assertions by the "I" of what is in the mind of the "you," which is not good writing technique from the get go. So, yes, it's natural that readers wouldn't like this. It doesn't make it second person POV, though.

True second person would read something like:

You come in the door and smile with pleasure when your eyes meet hers. Happy to see that she has taken time and care and worn something dressy and met you in the foyer, you ask her what's for dinner and frown, thinking that she is still mad at you from this morning’s argument, when she tells you, "Meatloaf, again." Wanting to make her completely forget about the argument, you decide the two of you should go out for Chinese instead and, thinking of what the two of you could be doing instead of fighting, tell her to change into hot pants and a skimpy blouse.

Now the perspective is entirely in the mind of the “you.” (But now there would be purists wanting to argue that it's moved to the third person.)

See the difference?

 

[slyc_willie]

True second person would read something like:

You come in the door and smile with pleasure when your eyes meet hers. Happy to see that she has taken time and care and worn something dressy and met you in the foyer, you ask her what's for dinner and frown, thinking that she is still mad at you from this morning’s argument, when she tells you, "Meatloaf, again." Wanting to make her completely forget about the argument, you decide the two of you should go out for Chinese instead and, thinking of what the two of you could be doing instead of fighting, tell her to change into hot pants and a skimpy blouse.

Now the perspective is entirely in the mind of the “you.” (But now there would be purists wanting to argue that it's moved to the third person.)

See the difference?

This was how I tried to write that one story. It wasn't easy to stay in that perspective. To me, it felt too much like I was dictating a text-based computer game like Zork.