Gendered ways of writing

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I have stories like that, too-- the ones where you think; "Naw, no one is going to believe me," and then you have to decide if you should tell them anyway, knowing you sound a little mad...

The truth is dangerous stuff. Like cypress lumber it comes from a strange place and requires milling to serve a purpose and be bought.

 

[Desiremakesmeweak]

Oh don't worry - I'm mulling over deleting what I posted now that at least a few of you have heard from me a little bit of the serious stuff...

(Stuff deleted from here.)

God, Pater's lawyers are pissed off with me enough as it is.

 

[Desiremakesmeweak]

ASIO is the old name for the Australian Security Intelligence Organisation in case any of you might have to look it up.

Nod nod wink wink, eh SR pilot. Let's both call the punches BEFORE they happen and see who knows stuff, wot wot?!

 

[KatieTay]

Whoa... that escalated quickly.

 

[Desiremakesmeweak]

And back to the actual topic - what about George Eliot (regarded by the Times, a paper owned by the family of Ian Fleming's wife Anne Harmsworth, as one of the greatest writers in the English language of all time)?

Or George Sand (Augustine Dupin)? Fabulous, countryside romance stories.

 

[Desiremakesmeweak]

Well, I think my point is people are living in a vacuum largely of their own choice about what they 'have' to read. And for the most part rather a lot of them will cling onto absolute kant and nonsense so long as it makes them seem to be part of the 'normalcy' drummed into the populace by the ruling classes.

When they are confronted with uneasy pictures that differ from what the politics of the day recommends to them, you will be surprised at how quickly they jump ship from the genuinely revolutionary.

I mean unless it's the case that some people are actually intending to say they were not ever given open access to these items of literature all very very clearly written from women's perspectives, and all of which are soundly endorsed by pretty much all the commentators there are anywhere!

And I can certainly accept that people are regularly kept in the dark - but then, they sort of also tend to get used to it and tend to want to stay there.

Stuff occurs, it's right in front of their very eyes and they go, 'I didn't see that.'

 

[Desiremakesmeweak]

And I might as well say this - the reason I jumped onto the Anthony Burgess thing is that a while ago I stuck a book up on Smashwords

(Stuff deleted from here for reasons best left to twisted minds! Like mine.)

The conclusion that I reach is that yes, typically, British Conservative Right Wing press, publishing and media is heavily chauvanistically-gender written and styled. But not all writing is, neither now nor at any time in the past. The reason it SEEMS that it is, though, is because the Ruling Politics is fascist. And inadequate male fascist at that. And that's not the same as saying gay or homosexual or queer. It means inadequate. Like an Ottoman slave castrati - bitter, furious, passively aggressive, dangerous, vicious, envious.

 

[sr71plt]

To actually get back on topic, I'll reiterate that I don't select reading on the basis of the gender of the author. I checked the genders of the authors of books I've read in the past two years. 32 women to 36 men. Not much to differentiate there.

As far as competing "what I know that you don't" notes, Desire (although I don't see the relevance of that to anything here), I've been retired for fifteen years, so you can have that one if you like.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

And I might as well say this - the reason I jumped onto the Anthony Burgess thing is that a while ago I stuck a book up on Smashwords that I had written in honour of my mother, although without a single swipe at Burgess in it at all, and utterly and entirely different in content, called ' A Digital Kumquat,' and you know what, the cover happens to be EXTREMELY similar to the coverflip one for Clockwork Orange in the link posted by an earlier poster here.

Which I thought was remarkable considering that the flip was supposed to represent what a woman author either would choose or have chosen for her.

The conclusion that I reach is that yes, typically, British Conservative Right Wing press, publishing and media is heavily chauvanistically-gender written and styled. But not all writing is, neither now nor at any time in the past. The reason it SEEMS that it is, though, is because the Ruling Politics is fascist. And inadequate male fascist at that. And that's not the same as saying gay or homosexual or queer. It means inadequate. Like an Ottoman slave castrati - bitter, furious, passively aggressive, dangerous, vicious, envious.

You obviously know shit about fascists.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Back to the original topic...

Writing from a point of view that might resonate with women is in no way the same thing as being a bad writer.

No more than a black writer writing about the world as he or she has experienced it.

Agree? Disagree?

 

[PennLady]

Back to the original topic...

Writing from a point of view that might resonate with women is in no way the same thing as being a bad writer.

No more than a black writer writing about the world as he or she has experienced it.

Agree? Disagree?

Totally agree. I mean if everything was written from the same viewpoint, it'd be pretty dull.

 

[Desiremakesmeweak]

Back to the original topic...

Writing from a point of view that might resonate with women is in no way the same thing as being a bad writer.

No more than a black writer writing about the world as he or she has experienced it.

Agree? Disagree?

Absolutely correct. Totally absolutely abso-fucking-lutely correct. The best writer around today that I can think of who writes brilliantly, has amazing turn of phrase, is thoroughly interesting - AND WHO WRITES ROMANCE NOVELS WITH STUNNING PLOTS, is Marion Chesney.

I think she's a great writer.

But then there is also the slant to consider about whether 'writing from a point of view that might resonate with women, etc.' And not just, whether women writers can also be as good or better than men in some cases.

I recall a book by the first woman who sailed the Atlantic single-handed - I think Davidson or Davison by name but I can't recall exactly (I'll have to check) - she was a friend of Francis Chichester. (I checked: Ann Davison - 'My Ship Is so Small.') Her books are entirely from the perspective of a woman, in my estimation, but by god is she a good writer and is she damned interesting and entertaining too!

I think that what the op might be trying to draw on or draw out is the notion that there are CERTAIN KINDS OF 'WOMEN'S POINTS OF VIEW' which resonate with many women or some women and that are very very very tangential to the 'norm' of what we may or may not have become used to as 'a woman's point of view...' I think there is definitely a class of writing that fits in there - and that is the one that deliberately establishes inside itself a kind of contemporary feminist 'new world order' gender dogma that stands in contrast to what these writers assert is a traditional 'gender normative,' though false, reality.

Is that writing guaranteed to be poor writing? Well it's annoying writing often because its DERP writing - just as DERP as some of the more obvious traditional gender propaganda styles. I occasionally follow a blog called 'Another Angry Woman,' and she is thoroughly and militantly one of these women perspective political-ish writers - who also writes brilliant English as a matter of fact, as far as I'm concerned. And I would not say I agree with everything she says...! By any means!

And then there's Louise Mensch - what a fucking genius, noble, outspoken, brave individual! Not always the best grammar, but so what.

And let's not forget the godalmighty Nigella Lawson for heaven's sakes! She writes!

 

[Stella_Omega]

Oddly enough I was not thinking about political agendas. Polemics almost always get the side eye, no matter who writes them.

According to a few of our gentlemen posters here, any woman's point of view makes bad writing. Female characters that are not depicted in the way these gentlemen feel characters should be depicted-- bad writing. It seems that there should be limits on how much emotion or how much self awareness a character should show, for instance. Some people seem to feel they have a right to decide how much is too much.

You, desiremakemeweak, just now referenced a woman who gets your approval-- she sailed a ship around the world alone-- well hey, that's pretty admirable stuff and a gripping yarn. But plenty of stories have been written about people who never went around the world, and it seems to me, that's where the judgement comes in.

 

[sr71plt]

According to a few of our gentlemen posters here, any woman's point of view makes bad writing.

A few? Name them please.

I looked back through the thread and my count is zero falling under this sweeping generalization you seem to want to establish as the case so that you can knock the manufactured position down.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Ever been to a pot luck affair?

Women invariably bring the strangest shit imaginable. Its like they open the pantry and collect pimentos and sardines and black beans and pickled cactus, dump it all in a casserole, and garnish it with almonds.

Guys bring rolls, and fried chicken, and pies, pickles, maybe a tub of barbecue. The majesty of the female casserole is lost on guys. Ditto female writing.

 

[sr71plt]

Before smoke starts blowing out your ears, Stella, JBJ is just pulling your chain. He's identified women writers whose writing he respects. He just likes to see you blow up and explode on one of your agendas.

 

[Verdad]

This whole gendered way of thinking sets my teeth on edge. The way I think about it, good stuff appeals to anyone. Trashy stuff, on the other hand, is more gendered the trashier it gets.

There’s a kind of romance novel I can’t imagine appealing to any man and a kind of, dunno, action comic book I can’t imagine appealing to any woman. Both are so completely about fantasy gratification they barely relate to the real world. They’re pure wank fantasies, really, even when they’re not about sex, and it’s not so surprising that men and women might have different taste in those.

I don’t know whether there even should be any rapprochement in this area. Pure escapism is pure escapism, so whether it’s Twilight or a movie like Taxi 3, I think one should neither feel apologetic about indulging in it nor expect everyone else to give it more respect than it deserves.

But then there’s stuff that does relate to human experience, and it seems quite obvious to me that men and women write it equally well, that where their perspectives differ it’s valid and interesting, and that readers of both genders enjoy both.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks04/0400271h.html

MARJORIE KINNAN RAWLINGS

One of my favorite authors was the sort of writer VERDAD alludes to who was excellent regardless of her sex. Her prose is very appealing, and she seemed to understand males.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Before smoke starts blowing out your ears, Stella, JBJ is just pulling your chain. He's identified women writers whose writing he respects. He just likes to see you blow up and explode on one of your agendas.

You've noticed that too?

He's going to have to wait a long time, because his opinions about my agendas are so hamfistedly and purposefully ignorant. They have no meaning beyond malice. Why should I respond to that? It'd be like taking a moose's bellowings as a personal insult.

My thought was that, for many (not all) men-- and this is legitimate, and something (almost) everyone does one way or another-- the women writers they respect, or the black writers that, say, a white person might respect, or the Indian writers an Englishman might respect-- are the ones that most closely conform to the kind of male, or white, or English, writers that person most prefers.

IMO, almost everyone does this. The male writers that a woman might enjoy just might be the ones that "write like a girl" so to speak-- the men that the male critics might lambaste. Or, laud while ignoring female writers that write just that same way.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

You've noticed that too?

He's going to have to wait a long time, because his opinions about my agendas are so hamfistedly and purposefully ignorant. They have no meaning beyond malice. Why should I respond to that? It'd be like taking a moose's bellowings as a personal insult.

My thought was that, for many (not all) men-- and this is legitimate, and something (almost) everyone does one way or another-- the women writers they respect, or the black writers that, say, a white person might respect, or the Indian writers an Englishman might respect-- are the ones that most closely conform to the kind of male, or white, or English, writers that person most prefers.

IMO, almost everyone does this. The male writers that a woman might enjoy just might be the ones that "write like a girl" so to speak-- the men that the male critics might lambaste. Or, laud while ignoring female writers that write just that same way.

PILOT flatters you by suggesting that youre worth a Quarter to get you started.

Theres only like 3-4 female writers worth a damn: Rawlings, Florence King, Camille Paglia.

 

[sr71plt]

I'm happy to bop out on the thread on what Verdad posted.

 

[Stella_Omega]

This whole gendered way of thinking sets my teeth on edge. The way I think about it, good stuff appeals to anyone. Trashy stuff, on the other hand, is more gendered the trashier it gets.

There’s a kind of romance novel I can’t imagine appealing to any man and a kind of, dunno, action comic book I can’t imagine appealing to any woman. Both are so completely about fantasy gratification they barely relate to the real world. They’re pure wank fantasies, really, even when they’re not about sex, and it’s not so surprising that men and women might have different taste in those.

I don’t know whether there even should be any rapprochement in this area. Pure escapism is pure escapism, so whether it’s Twilight or a movie like Taxi 3, I think one should neither feel apologetic about indulging in it nor expect everyone else to give it more respect than it deserves.

But then there’s stuff that does relate to human experience, and it seems quite obvious to me that men and women write it equally well, that where their perspectives differ it’s valid and interesting, and that readers of both genders enjoy both.

But-- do both genders really enjoy both? Trash is trash, for sure. But the original article claims that female authors are rarely even considered to be 'good stuff' in the first place. Even when they are, "good stuff" means "like a man would see it."

That's the article's opinion. What do you think-- is that something you see happening in our society? I agree with you, it shouldn't happen. I try not to do it, personally. But I have read plenty of Notable Critic types who hurl nasturtiums at female writers for being female.

 

[Stella_Omega]

This blog is four years old now-- but it's quite relevant to the discussion, I think;

http://storytellersunplugged.com/bevvincent/2009/07/17/apparently-i-write-like-a-girl/

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

This blog is four years old now-- but it's quite relevant to the discussion, I think;

http://storytellersunplugged.com/bevvincent/2009/07/17/apparently-i-write-like-a-girl/

Good article. Good read.

Let me add this comforting idea to the mix: There's Happy Horseshit and there's Real Life. Sometimes theyre as easy to recognize and sort out as turds floating in the punchbowl, and sometimes its obscure, like piss in the punch.

I read another interesting article along this threads direction. An elite but obscure magazine assembled a list of folks worthy of a Nobel Prize, from say 1675-1975, and the official candidates still included the same 3 women and no blacks. Rosalind Franklin still got left out. I woulda put her on the list.

My point, if I have one, is: We talk the Happy Horseshit and act out our convictions. ITS REALLY NOT OK FOR MEN TO CRY, NO MOMMA REALLY WANTS HER BABY TO GROW UP TO BE A FAGGOT, AND JEWS REALLY WIN MOST OF THE NOBEL PRIZES.

 

[KatieTay]

This blog is four years old now-- but it's quite relevant to the discussion, I think;

http://storytellersunplugged.com/bevvincent/2009/07/17/apparently-i-write-like-a-girl/

Oh goodness me.