female desire: It’s base, animalistic and ravenous

[Stella_Omega]

A new book on women's sexuality turns everything we think we know on its head

The book, which grew from a much-discussed New York Times Magazine cover story in 2009, reveals how gender stereotypes have shaped scientific research and blinded researchers to evidence of female lust and sexual initiation throughout the animal kingdom, including among humans. It reveals how society’s repression of female sexuality has reshaped women’s desires and sex lives.

Opinions?

 

[Handley_Page]

A new book on women's sexuality turns everything we think we know on its head

Opinions?

I don't see how it cannot be base and animalistic.
Mankind is an a animal and there's millions of years of development behind where we are now. It therefore seems reasonable to me that animal instincts are still around.

[PS. For those of that curious persuasion that mankind is only a few thousand years old (as opposed to many millions), or that Dinosaurs walked with mankind, I will leave such wild postulations in the gutter where they belong.]

 

[PennLady]

I can only say I'm not surprised to see this.

And I thought this made a lot of sense (excerpted from the article Stella linked to above):

Since we’re on the topic of rape fantasies, can we talk about why they are so common among women?

I mean here, again, I want to be careful because, number one, I’m a man. You know I’ve listened a lot at this point and asked a lot of relentless questions, but my answer is going to be inherently a fallible one.

The force of culture puts some level of shame on women’s sexuality and a fantasy of sexual assault is a fantasy that allows for sex that is completely free of blame. So that’s one reason. Another, which Meana brings up, and which I think is very compelling, is this idea that the feeling of being desired is a very powerful one, a very electrical one. And I think at least at the fantasy level, that sense of being wanted, and being wanted beyond the man’s self-control is also really powerful.

And this is also why I think these fantasies are not about rape, but "ravishment," as I read in an essay a long time ago. I thought "ravishment fantasy" was a better way to put it.

 

[jomar]

*yawn*

Nancy Friday spelled it out decades ago.

 

[glynndah]

I don't see how it cannot be base and animalistic.
Mankind is an a animal and there's millions of years of development behind where we are now. It therefore seems reasonable to me that animal instincts are still around.

[PS. For those of that curious persuasion that mankind is only a few thousand years old (as opposed to many millions), or that Dinosaurs walked with mankind, I will leave such wild postulations in the gutter where they belong.]

Please keep such things out of the gutters. They don't drain as well as they should as it is.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Certainly our ideas on female sexuality are very much influenced by culture, but you're going to need a lot more than animal studies and plethysmograph readings to make the kind of wild generalizations he makes here.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

The meaning of anything is the outcome you get. If Fabio takes you its ravishment, if I take you its poor impulse control.

 

[D_Lynn]

A new book on women's sexuality turns everything we think we know on its head



Opinions?

Thanks for posting this, Stella. That book is on my list to buy this week. It looks like it comes out tomorrow. With a degree and background in experimental Psych, how could I resist?

My sister-in-law asked me why I write BDSM novels and my answer was that it tapped into the most basal sexual responses of any type of erotic fiction. There's more to it than that, of course, but it's what is at the root of my motivation.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

If women are so horny, why is it so hard to get laid?

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

If women are so horny, why is it so hard to get laid?

Women are natural born bargain hunters, they'll make do but not before they've scoured the area for better and cheaper.

 

[desertslave]

I need time to absorb the entire article, and the book is now on my wishlist, but at first glance it makes a lot of sense to me. I think, even in this day (although it's getting better) women's sexuality is still being somewhat repressed and considered secondary to men's interests. (And, for the record, I'm NOT a ravening feminist, I'm just calling it as I see it.)

The "nice girls don't" curbing is still alive and well, and being paired with abstinence-only "education." I know, from conversations with my daughter and her friends (in their early 20s, now, but these discussions have been ongoing since their teens) that there's a considerable amount of bewilderment in how to parse that with what their own bodies are telling them. Meanwhile, the boys in their classes get the usual "boys will be boys" pass for impulsiveness. I'm sure it's more pronounced where I live because of a very high Mormon population (with its very own set of chronic double standards), and the spillover is impossible to overlook.

In my own experience, I was a very enthusiastic sex partner from the start (which was fairly young), which was met with varying degrees of surprise. I can vividly remember one guy in college being genuinely shocked that I "fucked back." I'd also like to think that I was responsible for teaching at least a handful of guys that women do, indeed, have desires, and that it's a Very Good Thing to be interested in their partners' pleasure.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Certainly our ideas on female sexuality are very much influenced by culture, but you're going to need a lot more than animal studies and plethysmograph readings to make the kind of wild generalizations he makes here.

Wild generalisations like what?

 

[RuzieD]

Good conversation so far.

First girl I was ever sexual with was extremely enthusiastic sexually. Every girl I have been very into it. Hell, I went to private Christian college, and most girls there were into sex if they said they said they weren't.

 

[LadyVer]

I kind of wonder why in this day and age there are still articles and books about whether women are and can be sexual. I tend to blame the religious extremists. They're afraid of women. To admit women have sexual needs and desires reminds them too much of Eve. It scares the bejeezus out of them.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I kind of wonder why in this day and age there are still articles and books about whether women are and can be sexual. I tend to blame the religious extremists. They're afraid of women. To admit women have sexual needs and desires reminds them too much of Eve. It scares the bejeezus out of them.

Yeah, but it's not just the religious people. It's much more widespread then that. Most women I know will admit that they can be completely selfishly horny, but add they don't think it's the norm.
We each think that makes us different than most women.

Also, when was the last time you heard a man say anything like;

I mean here, again, I want to be careful because, number one, I’m a man. You know I’ve listened a lot at this point and asked a lot of relentless questions, but my answer is going to be inherently a fallible one.

in the media? Or refuse to make a solid statement about something that has no solid data yet? This guy is very admirable.

 

[LadyVer]

Yeah, but it's not just the religious people. It's much more widespread then that. Most women I know will admit that they can be completely selfishly horny, but add they don't think it's the norm.
We each think that makes us different than most women.

Also, when was the last time you heard a man say anything like; in the media? Or refuse to make a solid statement about something that has no solid data yet? This guy is very admirable.

A rare quote by a man, for sure. I still think a lot of it has to do with religion, and not just Christianity, but we all have our own pov's. I subscribe to the blog of Rachel Held Evans, a Christian progressive feminist. When I saw her blog post yesterday, I was more surprised than usual. She had asked six other Christian writers, male and female, to give their pov's on masturbation. Her blog posts usually gets hundreds of comments. It was an interesting post and most of the writers had more positive things to say about masturbation, than negative.

 

[Dyslexicea]

Thank you Stella but I'm not likely to put this book on the top of my reader's list, women feminist writers have, ever since the 17th century, been saying society has our sexuality all wrong. I'm tired of reading books written by men telling us all about our own sexuality.

Daniel Bergner uses groundbreaking sex research to show the ways in which our supposedly enlightened society still has female sexuality backward — completely, utterly, profoundly.

Not to mention that society has so much more about us backward — completely, utterly, profoundly.

And this is also why I think these fantasies are not about rape, but "ravishment," as I read in an essay a long time ago. I thought "ravishment fantasy" was a better way to put it.

Thank you PennLady. I've always been seriously trouble by rape fantasies, especially considering the reality of rape and the effect it has on a woman's life who has been raped. At least now I can look on the fantasy as not being about rape.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Too funny.

The problem is, no woman wants the sort of man who's okay with her being a whore.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Wild generalisations like what?

The idea that any woman's (or any human's) desire is this way or that way. The implication that this is one's "true" nature. Human beings just don't work like that.

If he's trying to say that women are more sexual than they're generally given credit for, than that's fine, but that's an old story. The idea that women are all sexual predators whose salacious desires are only kept in check by the firm hand of an oppressive culture is just silly.

 

[Somme]

I kind of wonder why in this day and age there are still articles and books about whether women are and can be sexual. I tend to blame the religious extremists. They're afraid of women. To admit women have sexual needs and desires reminds them too much of Eve. It scares the bejeezus out of them.

Amen.

 

[RuzieD]

A rare quote by a man, for sure. I still think a lot of it has to do with religion, and not just Christianity, but we all have our own pov's. I subscribe to the blog of Rachel Held Evans, a Christian progressive feminist. When I saw her blog post yesterday, I was more surprised than usual. She had asked six other Christian writers, male and female, to give their pov's on masturbation. Her blog posts usually gets hundreds of comments. It was an interesting post and most of the writers had more positive things to say about masturbation, than negative.

I am a big fan of Rachel Held Evans too. It's really nice to know that there are high-profile Christians who are finally willing to confront sexuality publicly. Did you read the link she posted about "virginity mistakes" a few weeks ago?

The alternative is to get a massage from a gay man while denouncing homosexuality from your mega church in Colorado....

Now that I think about, it is probably time I start writing about religious characters...

 

[Stella_Omega]

The idea that any woman's (or any human's) desire is this way or that way. The implication that this is one's "true" nature. Human beings just don't work like that.

If he's trying to say that women are more sexual than they're generally given credit for, than that's fine, but that's an old story. The idea that women are all sexual predators whose salacious desires are only kept in check by the firm hand of an oppressive culture is just silly.

I ... don't remember him saying anything even close to "all" women.

In fact, I was impressed by his wordings in practically every statement-- at no time did he ever say "All women are" or "No woman is" or "Me Heap Big Man Know what Woman want."

He spoke in conjecture, making it clear that these are ideas to think about, that they can apply in many cases-- not universal truths.

The primary point of the book is that there is a set of widely held beliefs about ALL women, that women are judged by. That set of expectations has harmed many women, and those beliefs are contradicted by a great deal of evidence.

 

[LadyVer]

I am a big fan of Rachel Held Evans too. It's really nice to know that there are high-profile Christians who are finally willing to confront sexuality publicly. Did you read the link she posted about "virginity mistakes" a few weeks ago?

The alternative is to get a massage from a gay man while denouncing homosexuality from your mega church in Colorado....

Now that I think about, it is probably time I start writing about religious characters...

Are you referring to the link to Dr. Richard Beck? There's been a recent increase in writings on the cult of virginity, especially due to the speech about sexual slavery by Elizabeth Smart. I know that Evans has written on these issues before. I tried to find the specific post from my droid but was unable to find it. I vaguely remember her or someone else on her blog talking about how ridiculous many of the virginity/purity pledges, parties, and paraphenalia are; how males who have premarital sex are basically accepted by the church as "boys will be boys," while females who lose their virginity outside of marriage are permanently damaged goods, never good enough, especially within the church.

I think Beck has written that the church should stay off the topics of sexual behavior. One of many reasons being that some who protest the loudest about certain behaviors are actually practicing those same behaviors. Your second paragraph is an example of that. I can't remember the minister's name but I believe he had the biggest evangelical mega church in.Denver.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Having just now re-read your post;

I find in me the need to pick it apart more carefully

The idea that any woman's (or any human's) desire is this way or that way. The implication that this is one's "true" nature. Human beings just don't work like that.

firstly, I gotta ask; this way or what other way?

If he's trying to say that women are more sexual than they're generally given credit for, than that's fine, but that's an old story. The idea that women are all sexual predators whose salacious desires are only kept in check by the firm hand of an oppressive culture is just silly.

but Thats exactly what we all believe about men, isn't it? That men are afflicted with a ravenous and predatory sexuality. In addressing this belief, we have seen many men protest that they keep it under control, or else they say they are not like most men-- or else they ask how they can express this part of themselves without getting into trouble. Because everyone knows that's how men are.

Men, currently, have a great deal of cultural permission to rape, in fact, right alongside with a great deal of cultural opprobrium against rape. We are hurt and horrified but never surprised, when we hear about Steubenville or any other rape story (unless it's local and then the tendency is to disbelieve that the man could have done it and it must be her fault).

But in fact we have men and women both, who rape and take. Women are considered incapable of rape, with the result that when it happens-- and it does happen-- men are left with almost no support or understanding of what has happened to them, because everyone knows that women don't work that way. Misogyny harms men as much as it harms women.

 

[RuzieD]

Are you referring to the link to Dr. Richard Beck? There's been a recent increase in writings on the cult of virginity, especially due to the speech about sexual slavery by Elizabeth Smart. I know that Evans has written on these issues before. I tried to find the specific post from my droid but was unable to find it. I vaguely remember her or someone else on her blog talking about how ridiculous many of the virginity/purity pledges, parties, and paraphenalia are; how males who have premarital sex are basically accepted by the church as "boys will be boys," while females who lose their virginity outside of marriage are permanently damaged goods, never good enough, especially within the church.

I think Beck has written that the church should stay off the topics of sexual behavior. One of many reasons being that some who protest the loudest about certain behaviors are actually practicing those same behaviors. Your second paragraph is an example of that. I can't remember the minister's name but I believe he had the biggest evangelical mega church in.Denver.

You know, you're right: a lot of her post bleed together. I agree with what you're saying about female loss of virginity. It's a stupid double standard. I actually had a close friend (consider her my sister really) who was afraid do be "damaged goods" after she got out of a premature and stupid marriage. She went through with the divorce anyway, and is now happily remarried to a good guy.

The story I was thinking of was when RHE linked to some woman's story about making a "virginity mistake" of waiting until marriage.

And your right about Haggard. I have some close friends who attend his church. I don't relate to their views on marriage and sexuality though. Still good friends though.