Can an evil character win?

[pointless]

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0416320/

 

[parodyluvr75]

The Silence of the Lambs
Fight Club (though Tyler was more of an antihero)

 

[shewantsmore]

I would like an evil side to win just once,i know evil is not surposed to win but make a nice change be it in a movie or a book

 

[KRCummings]

that is mccarthy style. judge holden wins in blood meridian. it is a far more evil and violent book than no country.

I don't know if I'd say it's his "style" but he doesn't mind the bad guy getting away.

 

[KRCummings]

What? It happens all the time.

Yes but what you said doesn't really make much sense. Of course the character written to win wins. Has nothing to do with anything and goes beyond stating the obvious or common sense. Does someone believe that characters change motivations without the authors consent?

 

[lovecraft68]

Hannibal Lecter comes to mind.

At the end of Hannibal he saves Clarice, but then brainwashes her with drugs and turns her into some weird type of sidekick.

Lecter was a good antihero in that he was "cool" but when you look at it, he didn't really do anything for anyone, but himself including mind fucking Starling

 

[marshalt]

Or, better yet, watch the end of the movie "Fallen", with Denzel Washington...

That movie had an awesome, "You magnificent bastard!" ending.

 

[lovecraft68]

Yes but what you said doesn't really make much sense. Of course the character written to win wins. Has nothing to do with anything and goes beyond stating the obvious or common sense. Does someone believe that characters change motivations without the authors consent?

No, not without authors consent but....

I have written characters with a certain agenda and purpose. Then while writing them I have had the story switch gears and end up going in a different direction. I'm obviously still writing it, but I have had the feeling that the character in a way "Changed my mind"

 

[KRCummings]

Hannibal Lecter comes to mind.

At the end of Hannibal he saves Clarice, but then brainwashes her with drugs and turns her into some weird type of sidekick.

Lecter was a good antihero in that he was "cool" but when you look at it, he didn't really do anything for anyone, but himself including mind fucking Starling

All of his victims were flawed and in some manner "deserved" what they got. It gave him sympathy where Buffalo Bill got none because he preyed on the innocent.
He was evil but with a concept of justice. An early draft of Dexter.

 

[SinCity_Smitty]

Hmmm, a movie where the good guy(s) die or are defeated and the evil villain walks away scot-free?

The Usual Suspects

 

[KRCummings]

Hmmm, a movie where the good guy(s) die or are defeated and the evil villain walks away scot-free?

The Usual Suspects

Maybe. Depends on how you define victory and defeat. Spacey walks away but he's no longer the ghost he was. Now they know and it's a matter of time before everyone does and he becomes vulnerable.
I know that's maybe taking the whole thing a bit too far.

 

[lovecraft68]

All of his victims were flawed and in some manner "deserved" what they got. It gave him sympathy where Buffalo Bill got none because he preyed on the innocent.
He was evil but with a concept of justice. An early draft of Dexter.

I agree with his flawed nobility, but he was still seen as evil, just the lesser of.

I think society has become so dark more people root for the villain and the day of the "white knight" or goody two shoes character is over.

hell, even comics are doing this. Superman was the ultimate boyscout now they're trying to give him a bit of an edge (failing, but that's my opinion)

Look at girl with a dragon tattoo. Elsbeth was a nut, but the author got the readers sympathy by having her brutally raped. After that no matter what she did to her rapist was justified and anything she did thereafter was just "well yeah, but you'd be fucked up too."

I use this device all the time. I have a book out where the girl was gang raped at 15 then at 18 finds the five guys and kills them in a way that makes I spit on your grave look tame.

All the remarks I've gotten have been along the lines of "They got what they deserved"

You can have the most sadistic evil character and if you can give the crowd one little thing to make them sympathize they will route for them.

 

[SpeX125]

All of his victims were flawed and in some manner "deserved" what they got.

Not all of them. Some just had the misfortune to be guarding him, (Jack Pembry and the other cop in SOTL) or closing in on him. (the guy he stabbed in the crotch and the Italian inspector in Hannibal)

 

[lovecraft68]

One of the many, and I mean many, things I love about Game of Thrones is that so far King Jofrey has been portrayed as so cruel/cowardly/ and detestable that I find it hard to believe he could be sympathized with. One of the few "classic hissable villains I have seen in awhile.

 

[pointless]

so no one else saw match point then? seriously, that guy was a douche. i don't care if scarlet johansen was a bitch you still don't get to kill her and just go on with your life as privileged dickhole. damn you, woody allen. damn you to hell.

 

[parodyluvr75]

Grosse Pointe Blank (another antihero)

 

[KRCummings]

Not all of them. Some just had the misfortune to be guarding him, (Jack Pembry and the other cop in SOTL) or closing in on him. (the guy he stabbed in the crotch and the Italian inspector in Hannibal)

The guards are disrespectful to him and shown to be somewhat callous. The Italian is in it for the money and portrayed as greedy.
It's been a while since I've seen the movies but I don't recall him killing any character that is truly sympathetic or innocent. That's on purpose of course because we're supposed to root for him.
And don't get me started on the second book. Holy fuck that ending was awful. Just terrible.

 

[Squibbs]

I win all the time.

 

[phrodeau]

I believe that Rocky lost a few times.

 

[Super-Surprise]

Chigurh

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0477348/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1 Chigurh


http://www.pcwalls.net/download/no_country_for_old_men_wallpaper_hd-1440x900.jpg

 

[Sean Renaud]

If only half of your readers/watchers are rooting for your protaganist you're either doing a horrible job or an incredible one. Probably the former. The hero pretty much has to win because if he doesn't you'd rarely have a story. Though it does happen, especially depending on how strictly your defining victory in a few movies.

The Bad Guy wins in Saw and again in Saw II. It's not until Saw III that anything that can be considered a victory over Jigsaw occurs. After that it's all downhill for him but he has two clear victories.

The Bad Guy wins (albeit a squeaker) in Fallen, where he tells you the story of how he "almost died."

I'd argue the bad guy wins in T3 (though the moral of the story was John Connor and Skynet are stuck in a stable time loop so neither one of them can actually WIN which sucks for them both.) So I guess we can nix this one.

If I sat here and dug I could probably find more stories where the bad guys win.

Also the reason bad guys are more interesting is because they generally have to carry the story. The good guys only have to win and make it look difficult. Think professional wrestling, one guy does all the work and the other guy gets to land his "super awesome nobody can get up from this" attack win the match and go home. But listen to the crowd, if they are cheering for the bad guy it's because the wrestlers are either failures (or John Cena).

 

[Super-Surprise]

The Great Gatsby (1974)

The Great Gatsby (1974)

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071577/?ref_=fn_al_tt_2

 

[Super-Surprise]

King for a Day: The Story of the Bre-X Gold Scandal

 

[Super-Surprise]

The Wicker Man (1973)

 

[Super-Surprise]

In a roundabout way, the mysterious author of the letter wins in this one.


Broken Flowers (2005)