Novels / Novellas: The rhythm of longer pieces of writing

[damppanties]

I've always struggled with writing fiction that is more than a few thousand words in length. All of my stories on Lit are less than 10K words (my latest two chapter story might top that by a few hundred words though) and in my non-Lit writing, I have a WIP novel sitting on my hard drive for two years now stuck at about 11K. Now, I have a fair idea of what I want to write in it, as in, major themes, plot points, situations, etc., but I just can't seem to keep it going. It gets boring and keeps devolving into inane filler between the things that I really want to write.

That made me think of the rhythms in writing. In a short story, it's pretty straightforward but in longer works, how do you keep the reader from getting bored? Do you do spikes and valleys or arcs or something else? Does plotting each chapter in advance help or it's pretty much what evolves when you simply write? I'm trying to understand my block here so any discussion will be helpful.

I understand this is a question that will have different answers by genre. I'm most interested in something like romance or even what I would call 'life' kind of novels though. I mean, there you can't really keep throwing the reader situation after situation - that's not really how life works. So in novels that are not erotica or thrillers or episodic writing (like a lot of novellas on Lit where each chapter is akin to an episode in a serial), how does the rhythm work?

 

[sun_sea_sky]

@thisaandthat

Another moron on my ignore list.

 

[damppanties]

@thisaandthat

Another moron on my ignore list.

Don't bother about it. It's been reported multiple times by multiple people and will eventually get deleted when Laurel catches up the the reports.

 

[sun_sea_sky]

So in novels that are not erotica or thrillers or episodic writing ... how does the rhythm work?

I don't know the answer but I like the question. Now that I have been doing short-story writing I want to find this out myself. My longest story was around 9500 words and I ran out of ideas around then. Perhaps more planning was needed.

I think I'll go re-read some existing novels, that is, before the day when they sold them by the pound.

Isaac Asimov was one I liked, in particular the Foundation trilogy. Those books were short, but had punch.

 

[BuckyDuckman]

That made me think of the rhythms in writing. In a short story, it's pretty straightforward but in longer works, how do you keep the reader from getting bored? Do you do spikes and valleys or arcs or something else? Does plotting each chapter in advance help or it's pretty much what evolves when you simply write? I'm trying to understand my block here so any discussion will be helpful.
So in novels ... how does the rhythm work?

... I ran out of ideas around then. Perhaps more planning was needed.

I was soooo right with both of you a few years back. I had spent years writing shorter piece (both erotic and non-erotica) that weighed in around 3000 words, the idea of writing on a stage as big as a novel or novella length scared the crap out of me. Now? It's tough for me to reign it in! Here's what worked for me:

1) NO FILLER ALLOWED! It shows. You're either telling your story or wasting the reader's time. Don't waste the reader's time.

2) Have an idea big enough to fill the space. I believe fiction is about growth and change (or the rejection of change in light of new information). For the reader to understand the change, they need to understand the character. Every story is an adventure, even a sappy romance. Establish the character(s) against a background of conflict where conflict is the urge to change or stay the same.

3) Change is often the result of lots of information, so doll it out and show it. For example, the first time she sees the good looking guy that makes her heart skip a beat, he's kicking a puppy. She's shocked and devastated and we learn about her. She loves animals. Takes a job at the local animal shelter. Then she meets her boss... the same man she witnessed kicking the dog. Conflict! She hates him. He's a nice guy (shown), but she still hates him, rejects his advances (shown), and later learns the dog was rabid and had just attacked a child (resolution?) and falls for him, but she's been such a bitch to him, how is she ever going to made amends (more conflict).

4) My first attempt at writing a novel length work, which NO ONE will ever see, was a joke, but it taught be a lot about working on that stage. I took a very trite idea and told myself I was going to write 75-100K words on it. My idea? A girl was going to join a sorority and get hazed. Each chapter would be another lesbian sex scene in a different combination. An admittedly hokey idea, but I labored through it and along the way, I found the girl's best friend. I found her limits of shame and her heights of joy. I discovered things about the other girls, too. Once I was done - I had an understanding of how the hell to write a longer story, the things I needed to know, and how to get from A to B without filler.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

My style is to advance the story scene by scene, and halt when I dont know how the next scene is gonna go. At that point I toss a dead cat into the sanctuary, and go with it till the vein runs out again. Two such sequences usually seem incongruent, add 6 or a dozen and a better story emerges from the clutter.

Like my present tale: The initial sequence depicted a woman having a bad day, and stopped with her stranded on a rural road in a storm. Sequence #2 was the depiction of a flashmob where one of the organizers was kidnapped by a gunman who seemed to know the plan thoroughly. In the tumult he forced the organizer into his van and drove away. Sequence #3 was the depiction of a therapy session at mental health. So far no obvious connections. Sequence #4 is a court scene involving an odd-fish the cops captured during the flashmob mayhem. Still no connections until wayyy down the road when the odd-fish is a patient at mental health, knocks his therapist unconscious, and rapes her. The therapist is the woman stranded on the rural road. Now there are connections, and a sinister tale is emerging. The ending hasnt changed, though I'm still undecided about trhe beginning. I may go with a scene where the odd-fish feeds his sisters puppy to his snake.

So my advice is to toss a dead cat into your story, and see where it goes.

 

[TxRad]

Dampy, Jut write the story.

Editing is when the filler gets removed and the arc gets smoothed out.

Sometimes, chapters even get swapped around.

There is no right way or wrong way, just what works for you.

 

[topace]

Considering some of my stories have passed the 20k+ mark, I don't have this problem. I usually set out a starting point and an ending point and see how I can connect them with as much fun and drama as I can insure!

 

[damppanties]

Lots of good things here.

1) NO FILLER ALLOWED! It shows. You're either telling your story or wasting the reader's time. Don't waste the reader's time.

Yes, I don't want to write filler. It bores the crap out of me while writing so I know the reader will just be throwing the (hopefully published) book at something hard enough to cause damage. The issue is, I have some vaguely defined scenes I want to hit, and can't figure out how to go from scene A to scene B without writing my way to it. And the writing between the scenes seems labored, not effortless.

2) Have an idea big enough to fill the space. I believe fiction is about growth and change (or the rejection of change in light of new information). For the reader to understand the change, they need to understand the character. Every story is an adventure, even a sappy romance. Establish the character(s) against a background of conflict where conflict is the urge to change or stay the same.

Yep. Agree.

3) Change is often the result of lots of information, so doll it out and show it.

Yes. It is being doled out slow. Unfurling. But this is making me think it just might be a tad too slow. Nice example too.

4) My first attempt at writing a novel length work, which NO ONE will ever see, was a joke, but it taught be a lot about working on that stage. I took a very trite idea and told myself I was going to write 75-100K words on it. My idea? A girl was going to join a sorority and get hazed. Each chapter would be another lesbian sex scene in a different combination. An admittedly hokey idea, but I labored through it and along the way, I found the girl's best friend. I found her limits of shame and her heights of joy. I discovered things about the other girls, too. Once I was done - I had an understanding of how the hell to write a longer story, the things I needed to know, and how to get from A to B without filler.

What you started out with is what I called episodic writing in my first post. So, as Tx says, just write, huh?

Also, "The Limits of Shame" would be a very good Lit story title.

That was a good post. Made me think of a few things.

 

[damppanties]

So my advice is to toss a dead cat into your story, and see where it goes.

I think you're talking about different threads here, JBJ. A very useful device and yes, I have at least 3.5 threads going on.

Dampy, Jut write the story.

Editing is when the filler gets removed and the arc gets smoothed out.

Sometimes, chapters even get swapped around.

There is no right way or wrong way, just what works for you.

Yes, I agree there is no right or wrong way. I did start. And I'm stalled for some reason or other. Trying to figure out the why and if I can push through it or I need to change tactics or what. Two years is a long time for a WIP to be just sitting.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I think you're talking about different threads here, JBJ. A very useful device and yes, I have at least 3.5 threads going on.


Yes, I agree there is no right or wrong way. I did start. And I'm stalled for some reason or other. Trying to figure out the why and if I can push through it or I need to change tactics or what. Two years is a long time for a WIP to be just sitting.

No. We're on the same page. But you wanna deal with the problem serially, and I suggest you try a lateral approach.

 

[lance gt]

I find my chapters do well in series, when I set up the chapter as a cliffhanger. The first several chapters lay the groundwork and most of the character development for the story and introduce the plotline. Each chapter should hold your readers interest through it and to know if it does, read your chapter back to yourself out loud and listen to how it sounds and if it's doing what it's supposed to do. Just make sure you have a good flow going in action/drama, as well as a detailed description of the scenery involved.

 

[TxRad]

Dampy, you know me well enough to know i don't write anything short. I've got stuff on the hard drive that ain't even been looked at for two years. Other stuff flies off the keyboard but there are good stories started that I do need to get on but life gets in the way. That and stories for publication.

If you have been stuck that long, my best advise is to block out some time, reread what you have and then turn the characters loose. Forget what is fluff and even where you planned to go. Just get to writing again. That is the first thing always.

You can edit later.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I find my chapters do well in series, when I set up the chapter as a cliffhanger. The first several chapters lay the groundwork and most of the character development for the story and introduce the plotline. Each chapter should hold your readers interest through it and to know if it does, read your chapter back to yourself out loud and listen to how it sounds and if it's doing what it's supposed to do. Just make sure you have a good flow going in action/drama, as well as a detailed description of the scenery involved.

Yes! And do it in every scene, too.

 

[damppanties]

No. We're on the same page. But you wanna deal with the problem serially, and I suggest you try a lateral approach.

Explain what you mean by that please.

If you have been stuck that long, my best advise is to block out some time, reread what you have and then turn the characters loose. Forget what is fluff and even where you planned to go. Just get to writing again. That is the first thing always.

You can edit later.

Yep. Been trying to do that. Get stuck again in barely a few hundred words and those few hundred are kinda awful.

 

[damppanties]

I find my chapters do well in series, when I set up the chapter as a cliffhanger. The first several chapters lay the groundwork and most of the character development for the story and introduce the plotline. Each chapter should hold your readers interest through it and to know if it does, read your chapter back to yourself out loud and listen to how it sounds and if it's doing what it's supposed to do. Just make sure you have a good flow going in action/drama, as well as a detailed description of the scenery involved.

How do the first few groundwork chapters hold the reader's interest?

 

[oggbashan]

How do the first few groundwork chapters hold the reader's interest?

Things have to happen in every chapter.

For Literotica, that usually means some sex, but even if there is no sex, there must be some action, some development, some conflict even if you are setting the scene for the main plot later on.

Like a short story, a chapter of a novel/novella written to be read on a computer screen needs to have a beginning, some development and an ending. The ending should lead on to the next chapter, and each chapter has to contribute something to the whole story even if that isn't necessarily obvious at the time.

 

[damppanties]

Things have to happen in every chapter.

For Literotica, that usually means some sex, but even if there is no sex, there must be some action, some development, some conflict even if you are setting the scene for the main plot later on.

Like a short story, a chapter of a novel/novella written to be read on a computer screen needs to have a beginning, some development and an ending. The ending should lead on to the next chapter, and each chapter has to contribute something to the whole story even if that isn't necessarily obvious at the time.

Ah. This speaks to my original question of rhythm in terms I can understand. Thanks, Og.

Now, can this be done without plotting the whole novel / plotting chapters before writing? With a sense of how it needs to go rather than strict structure?

 

[LettersFromTatyana]

and now for an answer that's all about me-me-me . . .

I had a difficult time finishing my (only) multi-chapter story. The first few chapters went well; I knew where I was going, things seemed to flow, each chapter had an arc and a role to play in the full plot, etc. Then near the end of the story, I lost my mojo. The story just wasn't working, and even more frustratingly, I couldn't figure out what wasn't right--no amount of editing or cutting seemed to fix things, and the more I wrote, the more I felt I made things worse. It drove me absolutely insane, and I stopped all progress.

I sent it to a lovely beta reader, who'd just finished reading the book Story Engineering: Mastering the Six Core Competencies of Successful Writing by Larry Brooks. While I haven't read it, the book (as best I can tell from her long and effort-filled email--thanks, Syd!) breaks a typical story into different parts, and suggests that these various parts should occur at set intervals (say, 5% into a story, 50% into a story, etc). Examples of these parts include the orphan section (where we meet our hapless and sympathetic hero), the warrior section (where our hero devises a plan), and various inciting and lull plot points that occur throughout the book, with the sections around these either reflecting on what has happened or building towards the next important point.

She went through my entire story (seriously, I wish I could send her a fruit basket or something) and matched up what I'd written with what the book recommended. In those early chapters, the ones where everything felt right? I matched the book. And sure enough, with that approach, she found the problem in my later chapters.

The response around these parts is usually "experts be damned; do what feels right." That's all well and good for people who seem to have a magical (or learned) knack for this sort of stuff.

But her (and the book's) explanation helped clarify for me how a plot should flow. And as my mother once helpfully pointed out when trying to teach me the strategic rules of bridge, "you have to know the rules of the strategy to know how and when to break them for your advantage."

Once Syd (and Larry) had pointed out the problems, I edited the chapter to match his suggested arc. And once I'd matched my story arc to his guide, I was able to determine where I could break his rules for my story's advantage. And I did.

I suppose that is a very long-winded way of saying it's OK to not know how to fix your story, and that you might want to consider checking in with an expert--either a book like the one Syd used, or a really good beta reader. Get some feedback on what you have, change your story accordingly, and then change it back if you feel it was better the way it was before.

 

[PennLady]

I was thinking about this but couldn't quite think of an answer. When I write my stuff, I usually know whether it will be short, novella length, or whether it will be novel length. When I consider the idea, I suppose, I can decide whether that is enough to sustain a longer story or not. Sometimes I think, I'd like to write a short story about X, but it ends up being longer.

In my longer stories -- trying to kind of analyze them here -- I think I have more "little" things happen on the way to the "bigger" things, and that's at least in part to explain what the bigger things are, or how or why they happen.

Wow. This one makes the brain cells fuzzy. I guess I should check out the book LfT mentioned.

 

[LettersFromTatyana]

Wow. This one makes the brain cells fuzzy. I guess I should check out the book LfT mentioned.

Ha!

Well, I almost mentioned this in that post, but . . . I sent you and Syd the chapter at the same time. You pointed out the exact same things that she did, sans book. I think you're one of those people who just seems to instinctively know these things--a blessing for those of us who have had the pleasure of having you has a beta reader, but a frustration when we realize we don't quite have the same knack. And I mean that in the nicest way.

 

[damppanties]

I suppose that is a very long-winded way of saying it's OK to not know how to fix your story, and that you might want to consider checking in with an expert--either a book like the one Syd used, or a really good beta reader. Get some feedback on what you have, change your story accordingly, and then change it back if you feel it was better the way it was before.

Wow, that was a nice post. I had been considering a beta reader for some time now. Because of the subject matter I will need someone who is familiar with the world in which it's set. And I don't know any writerly types who could help with that. So I guess it's two different people maybe. Guess I'll do that now.

And as for those people who have a "magical knack", God, I'm so envious.

 

[oggbashan]

Ah. This speaks to my original question of rhythm in terms I can understand. Thanks, Og.

Now, can this be done without plotting the whole novel / plotting chapters before writing? With a sense of how it needs to go rather than strict structure?

That depends on you, and how much editing you want to do, or want someone else to do, when you have finished the first complete draft.

It is a good idea to have an outline of the whole, how it will start, develop, and particularly how it will end before you start writing.

Some people need more definition than others and would want to plan the whole thing before writing a word. I usually have the plan in my head and nowhere else when I start. Most times that is enough but sometimes I have to stop, think where the story is going and revise the plan. If I have no plan at all, the characters can take over and the story can end as something completely different. That could be good, or disastrous. My hard drive has numerous part-completed stories that diverted into a formless mass.

The only novella length story I planned in detail was my NaNoWriMo challenge for which I wrote Flawed Red Silk. Before the NaNoWriMo month I had decided on 24 chapters with a plot for each episode, all linked to the wider story which started in Chapter 01 and finished in Chapter 24.

But when I started writing, some of the chapters grew and grew. After I had written the first three or four I knew that 24 chapters was too many. I looked at the plot outlines and found that several were just variations on stronger chapters, so I cut the total to 18, and later on to 12. But the basic structure remained constant. I knew where the episodes were going to end, and how. It didn't matter that I had cut out some of the sub-plots.

I don't need that amount of planning for most of my stories but it helps when I'm contemplating a longer work. Some of my stories start out to be short, and then grow, e.g. Miranda The Witch. As long as the growth is within the structure and doesn't change the shape of the larger plot, that's acceptable.

If the story grows too much, it can become flabby, unfocused and difficult to complete. A drastic edit, cutting out the unnecessary parts, might save it.

But whatever works for you - is good.

 

[BuckyDuckman]

Sometimes I think, I'd like to write a short story about X, but it ends up being longer.

Amen Sister PennLady - I've wrestled with that a couple of times with stories I wanted to toss up here... I get into it, realize I'm in deeper than the original idea and sometimes it's tough to back away.

In my longer stories -- I think I have more "little" things happen on the way to the "bigger" things,

I haven't read enough of your things to know for sure, but I bet that isn't the case. I think some stories just call for a bigger story arc.

..can this be done without plotting the whole novel / plotting chapters before writing?

It is a good idea to have an outline of the whole, how it will start, develop, and particularly how it will end before you start writing.

Some people need more definition than others and would want to plan the whole thing before writing a word. I usually have the plan in my head and nowhere else when I start.

But whatever works for you - is good.

I think this is sound advice. For some, following the classic HS writing method of outlining the hell out of a story is the way to go. Some just want to write and edit later (me!). From your replies so far, Damp, I'm thinking you might gain from worrying about "how to write" so much and just write. Get those words flowing and stop counting them along the way. You might be surprised where it takes you. And if an idea isn't working, save it to a file and start on a new one.

 

[beatrice_dreams]

Now, I have a fair idea of what I want to write in it, as in, major themes, plot points, situations, etc., but I just can't seem to keep it going. It gets boring and keeps devolving into inane filler between the things that I really want to write.

You've had some detailed and sensible answers so far, so not sure I can add something new, but as you can see, most of us have struggled with it at some point.

In diagnostic terms based on what you're describing above, there are a couple of things that come to mind, particularly if you're writing a romance.

First, could it be that the main kicking-off point (usually, the 'they meet' moment in romance) isn't charged with enough drama or underlying conflict? In a romance the driving momentum is generally the wrestle between them wanting to be together and all the things that keep them apart. If the reasons to be apart aren't strong enough, it gets dull to write pretty quick.

Another thought, have you explored your characters deeply enough for yourself? Do you know what makes them tick and bounce off each other? If you get into those deeper underlying currents you tend to get a lot more ideas and a lot more conflict, which is always more interesting to write, let alone read.

I know that if I'm bored writing it, they'll be bored reading it. If it seems too happy-happy, then you have to throw a (reasonable) spanner in the works. Sub-plots can help with this while the main characters take a breather from their love/hate battle.

In terms of rhythm, I sort of see a story as a bit of a run-up, a leap off a rather high cliff, and then a flip back and forth between positive and negative moments in increasing intensity until you get to the last bit, your climax (possibly literally too!), and then a cool-down for your conclusion. And I've obviously been watching too much of the Olympics...erp.

How that works out in Lit chapters, I'm only now getting better at. I just write and see where natural breaks occur at the 3-4 page mark, with a slightly chunkier final chapter. Again, this is my experience from the Romance end of things - not sure how it pans out in other categories.