Abort or die?

[Recidiva]

Yeah, I feel bad for women who have made mistakes. I understand that she didn't intend to get pregnant. But if she's had sex without taking the appropriate precautions, she knew what would happen, and she should live up to her mistakes rather than choosing to take the easiest and most convenient path.

Also, please don't turn this into a sexism issue. This has nothing to do with women's rights. It's about the child.

If a woman made a mistake then there was a man making one right with her. The only difference is that the woman has to bear the consequences.

"Living up to a mistake" means going through and risking all the medical issues of pregnancy and then either raising a child or giving a child up for adoption. All of those things are impossibly high stakes to have to do to "pay" for having sex. It's not easy and it's not convenient, either way.

The child is inside the woman. And it's not sexist, many men understand what's at stake and don't dismiss the consequences with a wave of the hand and call motherhood a "fitting punishment." It's you-ist. I think you have an uneducated and dismissive opinion.

So when I say that's why women have more of a voice, this is why. Women treated like chattel throughout history, as a bakery for new people, have to change the social expectation from "body holding a baby" to "person with a brain and control over her own future."

 

[richard_daily]

If a woman made a mistake then there was a man making one right with her. The only difference is that the woman has to bear the consequences.

"Living up to a mistake" means going through and risking all the medical issues of pregnancy and then either raising a child or giving a child up for adoption. All of those things are impossibly high stakes to have to do to "pay" for having sex. It's not easy and it's not convenient, either way.

The child is inside the woman. And it's not sexist, many men understand what's at stake and don't dismiss the consequences with a wave of the hand and call motherhood a "fitting punishment." It's you-ist. I think you have an uneducated and dismissive opinion.

So when I say that's why women have more of a voice, this is why. Women treated like chattel throughout history, as a bakery for new people, have to change the social expectation from "body holding a baby" to "person with a brain and control over her own future."

You sound like a feminist.

*ducks*

 

[Recidiva]

You sound like a feminist.

*ducks*

Oh, this is something I fully embrace as important.

Not so much the "right to be hot" sort of feminism.

 

[TorontoBoyWest]

If a woman made a mistake then there was a man making one right with her. The only difference is that the woman has to bear the consequences.

"Living up to a mistake" means going through and risking all the medical issues of pregnancy and then either raising a child or giving a child up for adoption. All of those things are impossibly high stakes to have to do to "pay" for having sex. It's not easy and it's not convenient, either way.

The child is inside the woman. And it's not sexist, many men understand what's at stake and don't dismiss the consequences with a wave of the hand and call motherhood a "fitting punishment." It's you-ist. I think you have an uneducated and dismissive opinion.

So when I say that's why women have more of a voice, this is why. Women treated like chattel throughout history, as a bakery for new people, have to change the social expectation from "body holding a baby" to "person with a brain and control over her own future."

It's just as "you-ist" to say that.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Yeah, I feel bad for women who have made mistakes. I understand that she didn't intend to get pregnant. But if she's had sex without taking the appropriate precautions, she knew what would happen, and she should live up to her mistakes rather than choosing to take the easiest and most convenient path.

Also, please don't turn this into a sexism issue. This has nothing to do with women's rights. It's about the child.

exactly...fucking exactly...so if the child is going to be born an unwanted burden what kind of life do you think that kid will have? yea......

 

[Recidiva]

It's just as "you-ist" to say that.

You-ist as you saying me or me saying blob? Or you saying me saying blob said it?

I'm confused.

Does it make more sense to say "medical and social" consequences or "the legal consequence of making the choice to carry" or should I stick to being confused?

I didn't mean to imply that men carry no consequences. I know they do. I'm speaking in legal terms as far as choice goes.

Probably still confused.

I could make up more though.

 

[richard_daily]

Oh, this is something I fully embrace as important.

Not so much the "right to be hot" sort of feminism.

It's all feminism. Being a feminist doesn't mean giving up your individual identity.

 

[blobfish]

If a woman made a mistake then there was a man making one right with her. The only difference is that the woman has to bear the consequences.

"Living up to a mistake" means going through and risking all the medical issues of pregnancy and then either raising a child or giving a child up for adoption. All of those things are impossibly high stakes to have to do to "pay" for having sex. It's not easy and it's not convenient, either way.

The child is inside the woman. And it's not sexist, many men understand what's at stake and don't dismiss the consequences with a wave of the hand and call motherhood a "fitting punishment." It's you-ist. I think you have an uneducated and dismissive opinion.

So when I say that's why women have more of a voice, this is why. Women treated like chattel throughout history, as a bakery for new people, have to change the social expectation from "body holding a baby" to "person with a brain and control over her own future."

Men should be responsible too. Men who don't take care of their families are the filth of the earth. You confuse my wish that babies not be punished with a desire to punish mothers. I have no such desire.

 

[richard_daily]

Me. I hate abortion. To me, it's murder. I just don't see a distinction between an unborn fetus and a newborn baby.

Then perhaps you failed high school biology.

 

[blobfish]

Then perhaps you failed high school biology.

I meant a moral distinction.

 

[jeninflorida]

http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/25/world/americas/dominican-republic-abortion-teen/index.html?hpt=hp_t2


In the Dominican Republic "the right to life is inviolable from the moment of conception and until death."

Because life is defined as beginning at conception, they have a strict ban on all abortions. Apparently you cant even have a treatment that may save your life, if it would cause the body to miscarriage.

Is this Bush's fault?

 

[Recidiva]

It's all feminism. Being a feminist doesn't mean giving up your individual identity.

If I'm exhibiting a Feminist viewpoint, just means I agree with part of their philosophy, but don't accept it all without critical thought. I also do Christian things, though I'm not a Christian. I do Socialist things, though I'm not a Socialist. I do Nerd things even though...oh, right. I am a nerd. That label I accept, but I still look down upon the nerds who can't manage their caffeine intake and look like morons while LARPing.

 

[dolf]

my youngest child is a burst condom and the morning after pill.
my niece/nephew to be is the mini pill.

contraception, even when properly used, is not 100%.
condoms are about 98%.
the pill only needs a slight tummy upset, one that doesn't really register in your conscious mind, and it's no longer effective.

people forget this.

this planet has an excess of unwanted and unloved people. kids thrown into the care system rarely get that happy ending people like to imagine. and once they're born the pressure is to keep them, even if that's not in the best interests of anyone.

i don't see why a cluster of cells less sophisticated than your pet goldfish should be preserved at all costs. especially if that cost is the welfare (physical, emotional and/or social) of the mother, who is already a fully formed and conscious person.

if anything, i think early stage abortions should be made easier to obtain.

 

[Recidiva]

Men should be responsible too. Men who don't take care of their families are the filth of the earth. You confuse my wish that babies not be punished with a desire to punish mothers. I have no such desire.

Yes, but it appears your level of responsibility is to say "suck it up if you fucked up" and wash your hands of what that means in reality. I applaud the urge toward responsibility, but not so much that I think people need to subjugate their entire lives to the fact that the brain is built to make people lose their minds when sex is about. It's nearly impossible to make someone consider consequences when the only part of their brain awake is saying "YEAAAAH BABY!" instead of "No...baby."

 

[TorontoBoyWest]

You-ist as you saying me or me saying blob? Or you saying me saying blob said it?

I'm confused.

Does it make more sense to say "medical and social" consequences or "the legal consequence of making the choice to carry" or should I stick to being confused?

I didn't mean to imply that men carry no consequences. I know they do. I'm speaking in legal terms as far as choice goes.

Probably still confused.

I could make up more though.

I'm saying you.

As loathe as I am to admit it, Blobbie did raise a good point that seemingly shows how black and white women view this subject. He suggested a scenario where he would leave a committed relationship if his SO were to get pregnant and wish to have an abortion. You're answer was that he had just as much free will as she does.

Meaning I take it that if he didnt like your decision to bad?

My body my choice. Which in 90% of the scenarios involving abortion I agree with. Women must have the right to choose. But that doesnt mean that they are the only person with that right. It doesnt mean that they are the only person involved in the decision making process. Which by and large it seems that is the position taken by alot of women today.

The problem is when the situation arises where the father wants to have the child, and is refused that right because he doesnt have the ability to carry the child himself.

That is why I say this

I think in certain circumstances there is more then just one person involved in the decision. And it is unfortunate that it is looked at in such black and white terms.

Where does a committed father to a child, who wants to bare the consequences of his actions, fit in?

to bad so sad? Sucks to be him?

That is just as distasteful as eliminating the right to choose.

 

[Wings]

I'd like to review:
Women shouldn't be allowed to abort babies!
These babies are humans!
These women should not have had sex!
It's their fault for not taking precautions!
Let's not teach the proper way to protect our kids in school!
It's the parent's job to teach their kids how protection works!
Our kids shouldn't be having premarital sex!
We go to church, our kids aren't going to be curious!
No more welfare for mothers!
These damn lazy women should just get a job!
We shouldn't have to pay daycare assistance for single mothers who are trying to work!
Take back their food stamps!
Don't you dare let them make their own decisions on whether they should be a parent.

Do you see the problem here?

 

[blobfish]

I'd like to review:
Women shouldn't be allowed to abort babies!
These babies are humans!
These women should not have had sex!
It's their fault for not taking precautions!
Let's not teach the proper way to protect our kids in school!
It's the parent's job to teach their kids how protection works!
Our kids shouldn't be having premarital sex!
We go to church, our kids aren't going to be curious!
No more welfare for mothers!
These damn lazy women should just get a job!
We shouldn't have to pay daycare assistance for single mothers who are trying to work!
Take back their food stamps!
Don't you dare let them make their own decisions on whether they should be a parent.

Do you see the problem here?

I see a list of strawmen.

 

[Wings]

I see a list of strawmen.

Rhetoric.

 

[blobfish]

Yes, but it appears your level of responsibility is to say "suck it up if you fucked up" and wash your hands of what that means in reality. I applaud the urge toward responsibility, but not so much that I think people need to subjugate their entire lives to the fact that the brain is built to make people lose their minds when sex is about. It's nearly impossible to make someone consider consequences when the only part of their brain awake is saying "YEAAAAH BABY!" instead of "No...baby."

Are you implying that people are sexually ravenous and cannot control their own actions as a consequence? I don't buy that. If that were the case, then all rapists would just be declared temporarily insane.

 

[VaticanAssassin]

Is there anyone here not motivated by their religious beliefs that is still pro-life? If so, can you explain to me why?

Not me. I wish everyone would die....NOW!!!!!!

I am Anti-Life not Pro Choice

 

[oggbashan]

In the UK we have a perceived problem with overuse of the 'morning after' pill.

Too many teenagers are seeing it as an easy way out after unprotected sex and using the morning after pill repeatedly despite the unpleasant side-effects.

While it may be effective in preventing unwanted pregnancy, it has no impact on STDs.

 

[Recidiva]

I'm saying you.

As loathe as I am to admit it, Blobbie did raise a good point that seemingly shows how black and white women view this subject. He suggested a scenario where he would leave a committed relationship if his SO were to get pregnant and wish to have an abortion. You're answer was that he had just as much free will as she does.

Meaning I take it that if he didnt like your decision to bad?

My body my choice. Which in 90% of the scenarios involving abortion I agree with. Women must have the right to choose. But that doesnt mean that they are the only person with that right. It doesnt mean that they are the only person involved in the decision making process. Which by and large it seems that is the position taken by alot of women today.

The problem is when the situation arises where the father wants to have the child, and is refused that right because he doesnt have the ability to carry the child himself.

That is why I say this



Where does a committed father to a child, who wants to bare the consequences of his actions, fit in?

to bad so sad? Sucks to be him?

That is just as distasteful as eliminating the right to choose.

I think you're reading a lot into my responses that wasn't intended, and I don't think that's your fault. If I can clarify I will.

Not sure how it's a black or white issue, I'm speaking in general and not in specific. I can't speak to it.

If you've married someone and you get pregnant and you don't agree on children and it wrecks your marriage...that's a lot of missed opportunity to understand each other. I am not saying "too bad" but I am assuming you don't marry someone without coming to some consensus on the idea of children. If a woman suddenly, screechingly changes her mind on the subject, sure he can divorce her. I would hope he'd also love her enough to help her through it and not abandon her entirely. If she has the freedom to discount his wishes and he has the freedom to reject her, I'm not saying that's "Yay, problem solved" - I'm saying he has that right. But that's certainly not the ideal outcome.

I really do think it should be a right that men are able to either "Opt In" to being a father or "Opt Out" financially and emotionally since it's the woman's choice to opt in or out on the pregnancy itself. I don't think paternity suits should exist. It's the woman's choice to have a baby and if the male opts out, then that lays the responsibility about more evenly. In my life I chose to have two children and I had two husbands who were awful parents. I considered that an "opt out" and in my divorces didn't ask for alimony or child support. MY choice, MY consequences if my plans don't otherwise work out. Parenting is a gift. I don't think it works out well for the kids when they're considered an obligation, so I put my theory into practice.

My sympathy lies with both sides that have to deal with this completely socially and physically asymmetric clusterfuck of a consequence.

 

[Recidiva]

Are you implying that people are sexually ravenous and cannot control their own actions as a consequence? I don't buy that. If that were the case, then all rapists would just be declared temporarily insane.

I'm not implying, I'm saying it's science and biochemistry. Look at the research.

 

[Recidiva]

Not me. I wish everyone would die....NOW!!!!!!

I am Anti-Life not Pro Choice

So why are you still here? This only applies to, say, us? *locks door*

 

[TorontoBoyWest]

I think you're reading a lot into my responses that wasn't intended, and I don't think that's your fault. If I can clarify I will.

Not sure how it's a black or white issue, I'm speaking in general and not in specific. I can't speak to it.

If you've married someone and you get pregnant and you don't agree on children and it wrecks your marriage...that's a lot of missed opportunity to understand each other. I am not saying "too bad" but I am assuming you don't marry someone without coming to some consensus on the idea of children. If a woman suddenly, screechingly changes her mind on the subject, sure he can divorce her. I would hope he'd also love her enough to help her through it and not abandon her entirely. If she has the freedom to discount his wishes and he has the freedom to reject her, I'm not saying that's "Yay, problem solved" - I'm saying he has that right. But that's certainly not the ideal outcome.

I really do think it should be a right that men are able to either "Opt In" to being a father or "Opt Out" financially and emotionally since it's the woman's choice to opt in or out on the pregnancy itself. I don't think paternity suits should exist. It's the woman's choice to have a baby and if the male opts out, then that lays the responsibility about more evenly. In my life I chose to have two children and I had two husbands who were awful parents. I considered that an "opt out" and in my divorces didn't ask for alimony or child support. MY choice, MY consequences if my plans don't otherwise work out. Parenting is a gift. I don't think it works out well for the kids when they're considered an obligation, so I put my theory into practice.

My sympathy lies with both sides that have to deal with this completely socially and physically asymmetric clusterfuck of a consequence.

The bolded is where we are crossing wires.

Because I could easily say "I would hope that she would love him enough to not abandon the childbirth that he wants."