Sticks and Stones will Break my Bones

[PandoraGlitters]

but words can never hurt me. Tell that to Tyler Celementi. But what do you think? Is it painful to have something said of you or written about you that attempts to ridicule you, your style, your personhood? Even, let's say, if the poet is miles off and doesn't know you at all? Is it worse if they do? What say you?

 

[PandoraGlitters]

When I think of Tyler Clementi, I think of the first time one of my oldest friends was called "faggot." It was just a word. But it did give the most awful name to something that was true. My friend was not kindling for a fire to burn witches (faggot) but he was gay. Even at 9 years old, he was gay. His father had just died. I met him a week or two after as he pulled the piles of toilet paper from a tree so large that the lowest branch was maybe 15 feet up. The tree was in the front yard of his house, 3 blocks from mine. He was and is one of the kindest people I have ever met. Clearly, though, he was not popular in school. Bullies found easy purchase. And were it not for a few of us cocooning him, telling the football players to fuck off (which got me shoved and nearly clubbed once--no longer just words) he would have been subject to much worse than the occasional nervous breakdown and lifelong depression.

This is not the only memory but it is the second memory in which words were much more lethal than either sticks or stones.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

Words can slice and cut and I suppose it depends how vunerable I am feeling as to how I react but I do cry easily and of course that's what these bullies are aiming for. Which makes you wonder what sort of fucked up lives they must have to get their jollies from hurting others. I've come across as a dizzy blonde that likes making people laugh (which incidentally is something I've learnt over the years to give me some sort of safety ....... when they are laughing they are not hitting you) but make no mistake this blonde has learnt also how to sharpen her claws and she plays dirty if the attack warrants it!

 

[PandoraGlitters]

Verbal abuse is, I think, far more difficult to overcome or to heal from than is physical trauma. This was true of the women I met when I worked at a women's shelter. It is true of the children I work with, now. They remember a punch or slap for a little while, but it is out there in the open: an obvious wound. I can file a report on that. If someone is bullying them verbally, though, there is very little to be done. I can teach them to play dense, to ignore the bully, to focus on people who care about/like them, but every school, every place has corners, closets, bathrooms--places where bullies like to torment victims.

I think, though, that no one is better equipped for dishing out verbal cruelty than a poet.

 

[PandoraGlitters]

Which makes you wonder what sort of fucked up lives they must have to get their jollies from hurting others.

True. I suppose that verbal abusers must have some pretty sad little lives if they must try to inflict pain on others in order to feel worth something.

 

[Desejo]

Interesting discussion - let me just add that there are variations on the bullying/insulting and reactions to it around the world. In some parts of west Africa I have lived in kids are constantly, mercilessly teased by their families, their friends, their teachers . Actually, everyone is teased - and about things that we would never consider commenting on (eg. handicaps, weight, ugliness, acne). The result is generally not emotional trauma, it's quick witted comebacks and a damn thick skin. If you subjected an American 6th grader to even five minutes of that kind of talk most of them would dissolve in a boneless puddle on the floor in misery. It's even hard to stand as an adult! This is not to say there is no bullying, but I think kids are given much better tools to deal with it earlier on.

I should qualify that the sense of community is also much stronger. Everyone is teased, but everyone also gets food, shelter, love and laughter inside and outside home. Which is probably what makes the teasing bearable!

 

[PandoraGlitters]

Many of the children I teach are from West Africa and they seem as vulnerable as any child to the impact of teasing and bullying. I don't believe that there is any way I could be convinced that verbal bullying in any way makes a human being a better person. Having a thick skin, desensitizing, makes it easier to hurt other people, probably, but it does not make a person more compelled to be a better citizen, better lover, or better friend.

In some parts of the world it might be more necessary to be willing to inflict violence on others. Certainly this is true of armed forces. Perhaps it is why they use verbal abuse as a way to "toughen up" the soldiers they hope to use to destroy other people.

 

[Desejo]

one more thing

Just yesterday someone posted a critical comment (and I assume vote as well) on one of my poems. What surprised me was not so much the content of the criticism as its vehemence. It was as if my style of writing was a personal affront to his/her own work and threatening it. I try to consider suggestions and criticisms as objectively as I can, and sometimes I will even concede that the "shock and awe" approach can be effective. But it certainly is not my preference.

 

[PandoraGlitters]

I think criticism aimed at a person rather than at the person's work or the person's behavior is rarely useful, even if it is worded helpfully. My query is to what end one might write a poem (not criticism but "poetry" of a sort) designed to make someone feel shame, pain, self-conciousness, rejection or ugliness? Is such poetry ever good poetry? I have not seen an example I like. And what is the cost to society and to the person who is ridiculed?

If I were president, I would expect people to satirize me, hate me, love me on a grander scale. As a private citizen, I don't really expect that. I am a school teacher in one of the toughest neighborhoods in the country, but I am not often ridiculed even there. This is because the students I teach know that I am on their side. I think that makes for a healthy learning community. I know for a fact that when people feel like they can contribute without risk of ridicule, that they are likely to take bigger risks and create grander works.

 

[Desejo]

I think criticism aimed at a person rather than at the person's work or the person's behavior is rarely useful, even if it is worded helpfully. My query is to what end one might write a poem (not criticism but "poetry" of a sort) designed to make someone feel shame, pain, self-conciousness, rejection or ugliness? Is such poetry ever good poetry? I have not seen an example I like. And what is the cost to society and to the person who is ridiculed?

I think it's feasible to write a poem designed to shame and blame, or focus on ugliness and destruction. It would be easy to do this, for example, about environmental devastation (have you ever seen an open mine?) , attacks, slum lords..pick your poison. However, I doubt poetry like that would be effective on the perpetrators. The reader would feel some transferred guilt - akin to watching the news, a fire, the scene of a crime. There could be positive outcomes from the readers guilt; activist groups use this approach quite frequently. Your point on public figures being fair game is the key. I see no good coming out of an attack on someone not in the public eye.

 

[bronzeage]

When I was very young, probably seven or eight years old, I was upset over some neighborhood kids type squabble. My father told me something which has stayed with me all these years. He said, "Some people can't feel good unless they can make someone feel bad."

It was comforting then, because it meant it was their problem and really had nothing to do with me or anything about me. Ever since, I have learned to recognize the personality type who lives in misery and the only way to tolerate it, is to share their misery. A bullies are tormented by someone else.

 

[PandoraGlitters]

Ever since, I have learned to recognize the personality type who lives in misery and the only way to tolerate it, is to share their misery. A bullies are tormented by someone else.

Possibly. Or just sociopathic. I have known a couple of kids who have severe behavioral disorders who must manufacture for adults the appearance of feeling empathy. Rather like the fictional character "Dexter." I fear for them and their future victims if they find a particular fascination for inflicting pain on others.

 

[Angeline]

There is always someone who will want to try to hurt others for whatever their agenda is. I always figure I can only change myself so if someone else has issues I will reasonably try to help resolve it or ignore it, whichever (frankly) is most expedient for me.

When I was a kid I got beat up for having killed Jesus. And I can remember going home crying and telling my parents "they said I killed Jesus and I don't even know who he is!" And yknow all I can really do about that (besides learning how to defend myself, which I did) is try to write a poem about it. A make lemonade of lemons sort of philospophy.

Criticism here that seems to be personal or people seeming to goad others in posts I find to usually be motivated by competitiveness or jealousy. Or maybe someone is just having a bad day. Whatever the case I still do my own thing.

 

[PandoraGlitters]

There is always someone who will want to try to hurt others for whatever their agenda is.

An appeal to probability, necessarily untrue. Sorry, friend. Logical fallacy.

You do "your thing" beautifully, Ange. I look forward to reading more of your work.

 

[bronzeage]

Possibly. Or just sociopathic. I have known a couple of kids who have severe behavioral disorders who must manufacture for adults the appearance of feeling empathy. Rather like the fictional character "Dexter." I fear for them and their future victims if they find a particular fascination for inflicting pain on others.

There will always be mental illness, though some forms are difficult to recognize. For the rest of us, we learn our behavior and prejudices very young. As with Angeline's "you killed Jesus," I have know doubt where that script was learned.

 

[Angeline]

An appeal to probability, necessarily untrue. Sorry, friend. Logical fallacy.

You do "your thing" beautifully, Ange. I look forward to reading more of your work.

Well so do you, Dora, and just keep writin' poems. That is always what it's all about.

 

[Angeline]

There will always be mental illness, though some forms are difficult to recognize. For the rest of us, we learn our behavior and prejudices very young. As with Angeline's "you killed Jesus," I have know doubt where that script was learned.

Reminds me of the song from South Pacific, "You've Got to be Carefully Taught." I've always thought the beginning of freedom from those scripts is recognizing they even exist in us. Cause they do.

 

[njoyjade]

Awareness is a good start.

I too work with children and have seen the power of awareness. Some are so accustomed to hearing negative feedback that anything positive seems foreign to them. I couldn't get the picture to transfer but picture a flame under a beaker that leads to the end result.
"Fear fuels Ignorance; results- Hate"


We have the power to help change this.


Here's the lyrics Angeline mentioned.

You've got to be taught
To hate and fear,
You've got to be taught
From year to year,
It's got to be drummed
In your dear little ear
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught to be afraid
Of people whose eyes are oddly made,
And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade,
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught before it's too late,
Before you are six or seven or eight,
To hate all the people your relatives hate,
You've got to be carefully taught!
-- From Rogers and Hammerstein's South Pacific

 

[PandoraGlitters]

We have the power to help change this.

I believe this, too.

 

[Maria2394]

.......................

 

[PandoraGlitters]

Maria, I would urge you to seek emergency services or a therapist if you really feel you will end your life. Self harm is an issue that requires immediate attention. Dear friend of mine almost lost his daughter this weekend. Luckily she stopped in time.

The point of the thread was to explore the power of words on other people. Clearly you remember the words as much as the acts. Words have power and it is important for people who wield them to recognize that they are potential weapons.

 

[PandoraGlitters]

I finally gave up on the supposedly innate goodness of humankind.

I don't think people are innately good. We are innately complex, but we are capable of good.

I was not born with wings but I did learn to board a plane.

One other thing, if you are troubled by childhood trauma and want to message me, I can tell you about a promising therapy to "repackage" the memories you store in a way where they lose the power to harm or depress you as much. Message me if you are interested. Could help.

 

[Maria2394]

DEar Dora-

I came back to apologize for being so rude. I am so very sorrry. I have 3 siblings who are intent on giving me hell and at times I just want to die, to be away from them. THey steal from me, try to make me feel guilty when I won't allow them in my home because of the way they treat me, in fact, at atimes, it is better to just forget that you have family than to put up with what I have to deal with.

I am sorry I was hateful, mea culpa. Thank you for offering to help me, but there's no help fpr me. I do apreciate it though, very much, you have a precious soul. As do many of you here. I try not to bare my soul in public, but sometimes I just wish I had the nerve to just end it all, all I have in this world are my 2 wonderful daughters who love me and a husband who would rather be homeless than work. I am just tired. Tired of everything. Nothnong o look forward to and nothing to look back on with happiness. But I trudge through, pretending to be happy, pretending I am alive.

I love you for your offer. Thank you sweet Lady. Don't worry, I love my girls too much to cause them the pain that my suicide would cause them. I just have to wait for God.

 

[PandoraGlitters]

Maria, no worries. Trust me, I took no offense at all. I do hope you are able to spend as much time as possible with those wonderful daughters. Family is so important, I think. Sometimes I miss mine, but not enough to go live in Kansas.

DEar Dora-

I came back to apologize for being so rude. I am so very sorrry. I have 3 siblings who are intent on giving me hell and at times I just want to die, to be away from them. THey steal from me, try to make me feel guilty when I won't allow them in my home because of the way they treat me, in fact, at atimes, it is better to just forget that you have family than to put up with what I have to deal with.

I am sorry I was hateful, mea culpa. Thank you for offering to help me, but there's no help fpr me. I do apreciate it though, very much, you have a precious soul. As do many of you here. I try not to bare my soul in public, but sometimes I just wish I had the nerve to just end it all, all I have in this world are my 2 wonderful daughters who love me and a husband who would rather be homeless than work. I am just tired. Tired of everything. Nothnong o look forward to and nothing to look back on with happiness. But I trudge through, pretending to be happy, pretending I am alive.

I love you for your offer. Thank you sweet Lady. Don't worry, I love my girls too much to cause them the pain that my suicide would cause them. I just have to wait for God.

 

[bronzeage]

DEar Dora-

I came back to apologize for being so rude. I am so very sorrry. I have 3 siblings who are intent on giving me hell and at times I just want to die, to be away from them. THey steal from me, try to make me feel guilty when I won't allow them in my home because of the way they treat me, in fact, at atimes, it is better to just forget that you have family than to put up with what I have to deal with.

I am sorry I was hateful, mea culpa. Thank you for offering to help me, but there's no help fpr me. I do apreciate it though, very much, you have a precious soul. As do many of you here. I try not to bare my soul in public, but sometimes I just wish I had the nerve to just end it all, all I have in this world are my 2 wonderful daughters who love me and a husband who would rather be homeless than work. I am just tired. Tired of everything. Nothnong o look forward to and nothing to look back on with happiness. But I trudge through, pretending to be happy, pretending I am alive.

I love you for your offer. Thank you sweet Lady. Don't worry, I love my girls too much to cause them the pain that my suicide would cause them. I just have to wait for God.

There is one thing we must all realize and know. We have more control over our lives than we imagine. Suicide is just one way to seize control and while it may seem the easiest at times, it is the worst. The best way to take control is to say "no." No is an incredible word. The world is full of people who take advantage of others, and "no" is the first step to resisting them and changing things. It is amazing how much can be changed by a simple refusal to cooperate with someone who is using or abusing you. It can be frightening, but it will lead to better things. There are those who take their power for granted, but we are the ones who grant the power. Family ties are not a magic spell, but it can be a toxic drink. Put the cup down and don't take another sip. Accept the fact that you are the keeper and protector of your daughters and no one else. The key is look at every day and decide what is best for you and them. Everyone else's problems are their own. If you had plenty of money and all the time in the world, you could be charitable, but your money, your food and your shelter are yours. There is no reason in the world to share it with people who make your life harder. Your husband is an adult and I assume your siblings are as well. They are not your burden and won't be, unless you pick them up and carry them. Take control and live your life for yourself.