What are you doing right now? (besides online & on Lit.)

[Light Ice]

Really.

Rape is a primal/animal instinct.

I was almost able to forget people still thought that.

No, and you know I'm too bright to be saying that. Sex, and possession, are animal-like characteristics and inclinations. You add a sick or unbalanced individual to the mix and then you end up with the potential for a criminal act. But the desire for a visceral experience exists in everyone.

Hence, novels and other bits of erotica dealing with no consensual sex and force.

 

[Vail_Indigo]

Its amazing how much I hate agreeing with you sometimes.

Except that it is never ever that simple.
As a rule, part of the abuse involves making it incredibly hard for the woman to leave (for example, as a rule, she doesn't have a decent job, she has kids, he's made sure she's isolated from her friends and any kind of support network, he makes sure that she has zero self-esteem).
Abuse is a process.
It very VERY rarely starts with one person hitting the other.
By that point, it is already well under way.

 

[Vail_Indigo]

Its amazing how much I hate agreeing with you sometimes.

(which, btw, does not make it any less frustating when you can't help...but it is important to know anyhow...)

 

[Light Ice]

Except that it is never ever that simple.
As a rule, part of the abuse involves making it incredibly hard for the woman to leave (for example, as a rule, she doesn't have a decent job, she has kids, he's made sure she's isolated from her friends and any kind of support network, he makes sure that she has zero self-esteem).
Abuse is a process.
It very VERY rarely starts with one person hitting the other.
By that point, it is already well under way.

Right, but at some point people have to be accountable. Women are not delicate flowers.

 

[Nina327]

No, and you know I'm too bright to be saying that. Sex, and possession, are animal-like characteristics and inclinations. You add a sick or unbalanced individual to the mix and then you end up with the potential for a criminal act. But the desire for a visceral experience exists in everyone.

Hence, novels and other bits of erotica dealing with no consensual sex and force.

Thank god. I thought you some how swallowed to much stupid somewhere.

Except that it is never ever that simple.
As a rule, part of the abuse involves making it incredibly hard for the woman to leave (for example, as a rule, she doesn't have a decent job, she has kids, he's made sure she's isolated from her friends and any kind of support network, he makes sure that she has zero self-esteem).
Abuse is a process.
It very VERY rarely starts with one person hitting the other.
By that point, it is already well under way.

hmm. pot meet kettle. Your talking to one of the ones that made it out.

 

[Vail_Indigo]

Right, but at some point people have to be accountable. Women are not delicate flowers.

Except by at that point, they are more like abused children. They CAN'T go for help. They live in terror that he isn't just going to come home and hit her. He's coming home to kill her.
HOWEVER, I do think that, once out, if counselling is available and offered, then they have a responsibility to accept it and work with it.
But in the actual relationship? its closer to being a P.O.W. thats been physically and mentally tortured for years than anything else.

 

[chronicle_tenko]

You know what. I'm just going to shut up, and stay the hell out of this one.

That's what I'm doing right now.

 

[Nina327]

Except by at that point, they are more like abused children. They CAN'T go for help. They live in terror that he isn't just going to come home and hit her. He's coming home to kill her.
HOWEVER, I do think that, once out, if counselling is available and offered, then they have a responsibility to accept it and work with it.
But in the actual relationship? its closer to being a P.O.W. thats been physically and mentally tortured for years than anything else.

This is very true.

Its frightening as three kinds of fuck to get out.
I left behind anything I couldn't carry.
Its two years later and I still wonder when I will find my car disassembled or him standing over me in my sleep.

Statistically it takes 7 attempts to get out of an abusive relationship.
Sadly, to many dont survive the second attempt.

 

[Vail_Indigo]

This is very true.

Its frightening as three kinds of fuck to get out.
I left behind anything I couldn't carry.
Its two years later and I still wonder when I will find my car disassembled or him standing over me in my sleep.

Statistically it takes 7 attempts to get out of an abusive relationship.
Sadly, to many dont survive the second attempt.

Exactly.
I think that part of us wants to say "The woman should have left" just like we want to say "Well, if you weren't wearing that skirt, you wouldn't have gotten raped" because it makes us feel like we have control.
It makes us feel like we can make sure the bad things don't happen to us, or that we can run to safety no matter what if they do.
Except, of course, thats not how it is at all.

 

[Nina327]

Exactly.
I think that part of us wants to say "The woman should have left" just like we want to say "Well, if you weren't wearing that skirt, you wouldn't have gotten raped" because it makes us feel like we have control.
It makes us feel like we can make sure the bad things don't happen to us, or that we can run to safety no matter what if they do.
Except, of course, thats not how it is at all.

-nods-

It is a lot more than physical, location and simplicity.

 

[Nina327]

Right, but at some point people have to be accountable. Women are not delicate flowers.

Herein lies one of my favorite phrases:

You cannot save the damsel if she likes her distress.


It is hard to decipher the ones that want out, need out and need help from the ones that thrive on being a victim.

And societies confusion runs rampant from there.

 

[palemoon2035]

Herein lies one of my favorite phrases:

You cannot save the damsel if she likes her distress.


It is hard to decipher the ones that want out, need out and need help from the ones that thrive on being a victim.

And societies confusion runs rampant from there.

If distress is all she knows, then she does not realize she deserves better.

 

[Nina327]

If distress is all she knows, then she does not realize she deserves better.

That too.

In fact, that, is the most difficult thing to teach/learn across all spectrum's.

Healthy self worth/value.

Especially if it is never taught or covertly 'untaught'.

 

[Vail_Indigo]

That too.

In fact, that, is the most difficult thing to teach/learn across all spectrum's.

Healthy self worth/value.

Especially if it is never taught or covertly 'untaught'.

Self-worth is hard in general.
Harder still for girls who are told through most people and virtually every media outlet, that their only worth is how attractive they are, getting a man, and having kids.
And from an abuser's perspective, you couldn't ask for a better set-up

 

[Nina327]

Self-worth is hard in general.
Harder still for girls who are told through most people and virtually every media outlet, that their only worth is how attractive they are, getting a man, and having kids.
And from an abuser's perspective, you couldn't ask for a better set-up

Happens to boys too though. Very nearly as much.

 

[Vail_Indigo]

Happens to boys too though. Very nearly as much.

Oh, self-worth sucks. It is VERY hard to come by. Its part of why the patriarchy is bad for EVERYONE. While I firmly believe it is far worse for women, ultimately we are all suffering for it.

 

[palemoon2035]

Oh, self-worth sucks. It is VERY hard to come by. Its part of why the patriarchy is bad for EVERYONE. While I firmly believe it is far worse for women, ultimately we are all suffering for it.

I work with men and women in abusive situations everyday. I have so much to say on this topic I don't even know where to begin. Another day, perhaps.

 

[Nina327]

Oh, self-worth sucks. It is VERY hard to come by. Its part of why the patriarchy is bad for EVERYONE. While I firmly believe it is far worse for women, ultimately we are all suffering for it.

pfft. all-archy. period. Is no bueno.

and so is polite social code.

 

[Vail_Indigo]

pfft. all-archy. period. Is no bueno.

and so is polite social code.

There's been a switch to calling it...dammit...I can never remember...kyriarchy or something gender-neutral like that. But
1. I can never remember the exact word
2. I get tired of explaining it.

 

[Nina327]

I work with men and women in abusive situations everyday. I have so much to say on this topic I don't even know where to begin. Another day, perhaps.

As do I.

Should be a good day then too.

 

[omgitselaine]

Relaxin' on a Sunday evening after a busy , long weekend with family and friends ......... getting mentally prepared for that Monday morning at work UGH

 

[Nina327]

There's been a switch to calling it...dammit...I can never remember...kyriarchy or something gender-neutral like that. But
1. I can never remember the exact word
2. I get tired of explaining it.

Dont get me started on gender-neutralizing the dictionary again.

I still want to be allowed to show boobs for car repairs, dammit.

 

[Vail_Indigo]

Dont get me started on gender-neutralizing the dictionary again.

I still want to be allowed to show boobs for car repairs, dammit.

Havent you and I been over that already and you agreed with me?

it actually is kind of an important word though.
'Patriarchy' implies that all men are in control and are at the top of the heap and blah blah blah.
And while it is certainly true that men are in a more privileged position in society than women, its inaccurate to imply that all men have tons of power and that no women do, or whatever.
And while the current structure does reflect values that are generally seen as male, using that sort of description actually furthers the idea that male and female are set ideas and roles.
So, coming up with something gender neutral is actually less deceptive, more descriptive, and less likely to alienate people and actually subversive in and of itself.
ANd stuff.

 

[Nina327]

Havent you and I been over that already and you agreed with me?

it actually is kind of an important word though.
'Patriarchy' implies that all men are in control and are at the top of the heap and blah blah blah.
And while it is certainly true that men are in a more privileged position in society than women, its inaccurate to imply that all men have tons of power and that no women do, or whatever.
And while the current structure does reflect values that are generally seen as male, using that sort of description actually furthers the idea that male and female are set ideas and roles.
So, coming up with something gender neutral is actually less deceptive, more descriptive, and less likely to alienate people and actually subversive in and of itself.
ANd stuff.

Yes we did go over that and yes i do agree with you on a shit ton of points. Most of them in fact. I still have my predisposed concepts though and some things I really don't want to agree or disagree with you on. Like we discussed before. I'm (or rather women like me) probably one of the biggest things besides "the horrid while male" that stands in the way of gender equality. Part of me doesn't give a fuck about changing it because if it changes then I cant trade a view of my tits for car repairs. There would be no system to manipulate and I cant pretend to be an airhead with any kind of clear conscience. Then the other part of me tells me to shut up and go fix my own fucking car because i'm capable of not being a total bitch.

 

[Vail_Indigo]

Yes we did go over that and yes i do agree with you on a shit ton of points. Most of them in fact. I still have my predisposed concepts though and some things I really don't want to agree or disagree with you on. Like we discussed before. I'm (or rather women like me) probably one of the biggest things besides "the horrid while male" that stands in the way of gender equality. Part of me doesn't give a fuck about changing it because if it changes then I cant trade a view of my tits for car repairs. There would be no system to manipulate and I cant pretend to be an airhead with any kind of clear conscience. Then the other part of me tells me to shut up and go fix my own fucking car because i'm capable of not being a total bitch.

Well, yeah!
laughing