50 Shades, the lemming theory in action.

[Recidiva]

These are valid reasons not to like the book. And I'm sure I'd find many others that would make it tedious, if not downright impossible, for me to finish the book.

But again, James wasn't writing for the true BDSM community. She was writing a fantasy for herself that hit a chord with a lot of other people. She didn't start out, as far as I know, expecting this would get picked up and published. She wrote for FUN, for HERSELF. And I don't think you can fault her for that.

And LC, you still haven't answered my question. why is it ok to go with the herd AGAINST 50 Shades (now that negative reviews are coming in), but not for it?

I'm just ambivalent. I think the characterization and dialogue was clever.

If she's successful, that's cool. I bought the books and it didn't cost me too much on a Kindle.

The main reason I would go against it is the BDSM representation. It's insulting and ignorant.

Put it in some other context and it becomes socially more imperative to go against it. Imagine some other marginalized and misunderstood segment of society is treated the same way. Say someone wrote a book about a gay man who can be "converted" to straight by the right woman. It's definitely a fantasy. How much social good is done to extend this fantasy and portray someone that way?

But it's just one damned book and is not going to cause anything more than mild curiosity which will be straightened out soon enough when contact is made with a real BDSM'er who is not in the mood to be psychoanalyzed and told that their sexual preference is caused by childhood trauma and the right woman/man can convert them.

 

[lance gt]

This is nothing more than another 'Pet Rock' extravaganza. All this shows, is an interest in a taboo subject that many harbour desires to know about. Not many readers even have an inkling of what real BDSM is about, but this broaches the subject enough to spark their interest.

The 'Potter Period' is over now, so it's on to the next fantasy and 50 Shades is it. Vampire/ Shapeshifting is at its peak of popularity right now and the market is saturated with it. It's getting too over-done and readers want the next big thing.
If BDSM is it, then it's time to stop bitching about 50 shades of crap and put out the best of the genre to publishers and get a market going for it.

People like to show they're into the trendy shit and want to be popular, saying they read it, or did it, yet never knowing what the hell they're talking about, but hey, they're part of the "in" crowd at least.

 

[TexasWife25]

Ive seen a TON of "boo 50 shades sucks!" threads. I haven't read the books, so I have no personal opinion. However it seems the more popular a book is, the louder people feel they have to be to denounce it.

From everything I've read, it sounds like your average romance book, with a bit of a bdsm twist. People who don't like trashy romance, are avid readers, or live the bdsm lifestyle won't like it. Not every book is everyones cup of tea, but this need to trash the people who actually read and honestly enjoyed the book is really confusing to me. Everyone has a preference, it doesn't mean they are stupid lemmings if they enjoyed a book you didnt like.

 

[3113]

Why their pushing something that needs no pushing is they're waiting for the backlash. They're waiting for it to 360 into people being so sick and tried of seeing/hearing about it that it will implode.

I think you're right. I'd also keep in mind the "Eregon" fiasco. Hugely popular book--and a series. The movie came across as ridiculous, bombing so badly that not only wasn't the rest of the series made into movies, but the books themselves pretty much vanished from the shelves.

At a guess, by the time the movie comes out "50 Shades" will either be dead (everyone will have moved onto the next big thing) or be killed by the movie.

 

[3113]

But people are reading it, and as a teacher I'll take anything that gets people, kids and adults both, to read, no matter how horrid it is.

Really? What if they were all avidly reading "The Klansman" and you were seeing those kids marching around in white hoods and setting fire to crosses on the lawns of anyone not white?

I'm sorry, but I really have to start taking exception to the idea of "anything that gets them to read is good!" Because it's not true. It's just not.

Now, if you'd like to rephrase that to "stupid, harmless smut" should be used to teach people to read because they'll learn, I'd be fine with your observation. By all means, give the kids badly written, dirty books if it will teach them how to read when nothing else will (actually, if you really want to teach kids to read, give them comic books. These have been proven to teach reading over any other type of book, porn included). But let's not say that "anything" is worth giving them so long as it teaches them to read.

Because books don't just teach reading. They teach ideas.

 

[Mirisa]

Really? What if they were all avidly reading "The Klansman" and you were seeing those kids marching around in white hoods and setting fire to crosses on the lawns of anyone not white?

I'm sorry, but I really have to start taking exception to the idea of "anything that gets them to read is good!" Because it's not true. It's just not.

Now, if you'd like to rephrase that to "stupid, harmless smut" should be used to teach people to read because they'll learn, I'd be fine with your observation. By all means, give the kids badly written, dirty books if it will teach them how to read when nothing else will (actually, if you really want to teach kids to read, give them comic books. These have been proven to teach reading over any other type of book, porn included). But let's not say that "anything" is worth giving them so long as it teaches them to read.

Because books don't just teach reading. They teach ideas.

So you believe in teaching them that everything they read is true and they should believe it?

Or that they should actually consider the source and take information they read and apply it or reject it.

I stand by my original statement.

 

[mcguinness]

I thought this was an interesting take on the subject.

http://erotica-readers.blogspot.com/2012/07/why-fifty-shades-of-grey-matters.html

Less than three years ago, some very prominent writers and agents in the publishing world told me, flatly, that there was no market for erotica. It was unsaleable. It was a niche product that held little interest for them and would tick along at its own obscure pace. You can put sex in your murder mystery, or your sci-fi novel, or your romance, they said. But a straight-up erotic novel, with sexual desire as a central theme, was simply not saleable.

But they were wrong. I think that the rising levels of explicit sexuality in film, television, and the ubiquity of porn on the web meant that there was a large mainstream audience whose tolerance for and interest in fiction with heavy erotic content had been growing for years. And it is a comment on just how out of touch mainstream publishers have been with their market that, with a very few exceptions that were associated with individual authors, they did not cotton onto it. Many, many well written erotic novels, with good character development and credible plots, came across their desks and they slush-piled them.

Along comes Fifty Shades of Grey. A novel that started off as Twilight fanfic, and gained a considerable devoted audience within that context. Its author, E.L. James, is a retired television executive who had some advantages over most erotica writers. She knew the media landscape and the concept of 'audience' very well. She understood her own work as 'marketable property'. She had a keen sense of how to pitch the work just right to convince publishers that they should reconsider their ambivalence toward erotica. But mostly, I think she had an instinctive understanding of how a mainstream public needed to find engagement with kinky sex, while providing them with a moral escape clause.

Fifty Shades of Grey does an interesting dance with the explicit. It revels in the details of the taboo of BDSM while seeming to condemn it. Like the torrid pseudo-journalistic pieces written about Tiger Woods' illicit affair, it whispers to a rather creepy corner of the mainstream psyche which has a propensity to enjoy the titillation inherent in a sin while, at the same time, censuring Mr. Woods for being such a faithless bastard.

And many, many readers love this. They can masturbate furiously to the scenes played out in the Red Room of Pain, while waiting for the heroine to cure Mr. Grey of his perversions.

I am reminded of the masses who enjoyed the spectacle of the Salem Witch Trials or denunciations of heretics during the Spanish Inquisition.

"She consorted lewdly with the Devil!" the inquisitor proclaims, partly for the judges but loudly enough to entertain the masses. He lovingly details the proof of her perfidy. The women gasp and feel a quiver between their thighs right before they all scream, "Burn the witch!" If you've never seen Ken Russell's "The Witches", based on the historical events of the trials of the witches in Loudun, France, in 1634, you should. He understood and then illustrated the eroticism and hypocrisy that plays out in these sorts of public discourse on morality and sin with an insight that few others have.

I don't think a large portion of mainstream society has evolved much since then. And for erotica writers, who usually situate themselves firmly in the sex-positive camp, this is very hard to comprehend. We write novels about how erotic experience and the exploration of new sexual territories helps us grow as individuals. For us, sex in a doorway. Very often our themes are about revelation, completion, redemption through experience. Not through shame or rejection or closing down our sexual options.

From the point of view of mainstream publishers, Fifty Shades of Grey is simply a very successful product. In the last year, in the editorial boardrooms in London and New York, large publishers have spent time analyzing the success of the novel and figuring out how they can get on the bandwagon. They may not be risk-takers when it comes to new literary product anymore, but they're damn good post-game quarterbackers. The moral dynamics that underlie FSOG will not have escaped them, nor will the poor quality of the writing.

If you had hoped to produce a 'better written Fifty Shades': "Thirty Shades of Grammar" or "Eighty Shades of Character Development" or "Twenty-Six Shades of Plot", I don't think your efforts are going to be appreciated. Publishers have proof that the vast majority of people who have bought, read and enjoyed the series simply don't care about the quality of the writing. In fact, its very hamfistedness may play a subtextual role in convincing the reader of Anastasia's innocence and her genuine desire to cure the perverted Mr. Grey.

 

[lovecraft68]

These are valid reasons not to like the book. And I'm sure I'd find many others that would make it tedious, if not downright impossible, for me to finish the book.

But again, James wasn't writing for the true BDSM community. She was writing a fantasy for herself that hit a chord with a lot of other people. She didn't start out, as far as I know, expecting this would get picked up and published. She wrote for FUN, for HERSELF. And I don't think you can fault her for that.

And LC, you still haven't answered my question. why is it ok to go with the herd AGAINST 50 Shades (now that negative reviews are coming in), but not for it?

Ummmm, not sure I get the question. Are you saying there's a "herd" against it as well?

If that's what you're asking I will say that number#1 I would think the "against" seems to be a minority.

Also I for MY own reasons will not read it. If everyone said it sucked, but something there somehow appealed to me I would buy it.

If there are people who are against it and cannot give a vailed reason other than "Well they are against it," then yes, you;re right that's a heard as well.

To your other point, I don;t think James intended to hit the BDSM audience, but that is what its become associated with and that's too bad because its a very poor representation of.

I don;t want to say dangerous because that's too strong of a word, but if this book is inspiring curiosity it is certainly misleading. Personally I would not write about something I was that clueless on.

 

[lovecraft68]

Yes, it is poorly written. The characters are atrocious. It never should have been published without thorough editing and definite improvement.

But people are reading it, and as a teacher I'll take anything that gets people, kids and adults both, to read, no matter how horrid it is.

Personally I generally read 4 to 5 books a week. Despite all the horrors of 50 shades, I loved reading the books. I could not put them down until I was finished with all three. They totally consumed me. I fell in love with the horrid poorly developed characters and I'm sure I will read them again at some point.

It is no different from the trash that people flock to on tv. They want to know what happens. It gives them an escape. It is something different from their ordinary, boring herd lives.

So what has 50 shades done? It has woman reading erotica (however poor the quality) and then searching for more. Authors are going to start filling this need with quality erotica that is marketed to the mainstream population. This is beginning to happen... Something good will come out soon and just take off.

I can't tell you how many women actually wanted to have sex with their husbands again after reading these books because they were so aroused. There were a lot of really happy husbands walking around for awhile.

I think it opened some role playing for women that had never considered it before. Spiced up the sex life a bit.

So yes the book is horrendous but honestly its main purpose is to entertain. There is a large portion of the population that does not want to sit down and read a deep, thought provoking book every time.

So are you saying you enjoyed it in the sense it was so bad it was good? LIke a train wreck fascination?

I can understand that because I'm one of those people who enjoy B-schlock creature double feature movies, sometimes the worse they are the more fun they are.

 

[PennLady]

Because books don't just teach reading. They teach ideas.

And then we need parents and teachers and etc. to teach critical thinking skills about what they read. None of it happens in a vacuum. (We hope, at least.)

 

[lovecraft68]

I think you're right. I'd also keep in mind the "Eregon" fiasco. Hugely popular book--and a series. The movie came across as ridiculous, bombing so badly that not only wasn't the rest of the series made into movies, but the books themselves pretty much vanished from the shelves.

At a guess, by the time the movie comes out "50 Shades" will either be dead (everyone will have moved onto the next big thing) or be killed by the movie.

My daughter was outraged by the Eragon movie. Loved the books, but said she wished she could "unsee" the movie.

To me, I would think a non-rushed fairly serious effort on 50 shades as a movie could be better than the books they would have to cut out all the fluff. But I doubt they want to make that attempt. It would cost more money, but more importantly time.

 

[Mirisa]

It is absolutely a train wreck fascination. The same reason I've read twilight numerous times and listened to the audiobook multiple times as well.

Speaking of, I need to download 50 shades from audible in a few months. That will be fun to listen to while I exercise. Is there other erotica in audiobook form? I need to check this out.

 

[Recidiva]

And then we need parents and teachers and etc. to teach critical thinking skills about what they read. None of it happens in a vacuum. (We hope, at least.)

I don't think it's any more valid to like the book than to be critical of the book. Putting the time in on reading it gives you the right to have an opinion.

I love to read and I don't consider it a character boost if someone else enjoys reading. If they don't read, they're missing out on great stuff and I don't need to feel sorry for them or encourage them any more than I would if they were missing out on ice cream.

I have two kids, one who adores reading and one who couldn't care much less. One doesn't have a better character than the other, although one has better grammar.

If you're an advocate of reading and you think that anything read is a good thing, that's open minded to where brains fall out. There's way too much poisonous crap to hold that point of view.

I don't think that the author is more guilty or less guilty of the crime of inaccuracy than romance, where men can be idealized, or porn, where women can be idealized, in entirely inaccurate ways.

It's just that the author is doing it to a new genre, and those who understand the genre and the actual people it reflects have the perfect right to object to its facile treatment of the subject matter.

 

[PennLady]

It is absolutely a train wreck fascination. The same reason I've read twilight numerous times and listened to the audiobook multiple times as well.

Speaking of, I need to download 50 shades from audible in a few months. That will be fun to listen to while I exercise. Is there other erotica in audiobook form? I need to check this out.

I don't know about audiobooks, but if you have something like a Kindle, a lot of books have 'text-to-speech' enabled. I have no idea how good that is, though. It may be devoid of inflection or something, which would kind of ruin the atmosphere, I'd think.

 

[lovecraft68]

I'm just ambivalent. I think the characterization and dialogue was clever.

If she's successful, that's cool. I bought the books and it didn't cost me too much on a Kindle.

The main reason I would go against it is the BDSM representation. It's insulting and ignorant.

Put it in some other context and it becomes socially more imperative to go against it. Imagine some other marginalized and misunderstood segment of society is treated the same way. Say someone wrote a book about a gay man who can be "converted" to straight by the right woman. It's definitely a fantasy. How much social good is done to extend this fantasy and portray someone that way?

But it's just one damned book and is not going to cause anything more than mild curiosity which will be straightened out soon enough when contact is made with a real BDSM'er who is not in the mood to be psychoanalyzed and told that their sexual preference is caused by childhood trauma and the right woman/man can convert them.

I posted this on a BDSM thread and will post it here and prepare myself for a BDSM lashing.

I know it is upsetting to have BDSM tied to mental illness and child abuse. It annoys me when that device is used all the time.

However, child abuse can most certainly attract someone to BDSM.

I know because I was a badly abused child.

When you are an abused child your wires get seriously crossed. The very person who is supposed to love and care for you is also the one hurting you. Your love/hate/pain/pleasure wires get seriously crossed.

It is also very common for the abused, no matter how badly abused, to still desperately want to please the person who is the one abusing them.

Nothing like a D/S relationship though right?

I'm not saying this is always the case, but to sit there like many do and deny the correlation is ignorant.

There are levels of BDSM like there are anything else. In my life I have met two women who I would say truly fall under the term "Pain sluts" the type that will go so far they will sustain a permanent injury. The kind who if they end up with the wrong person will sustain that injury. Both were badly abused as children.

To the next point. The right person can help them. The right person can somewhat change them and if nothing else give them that understanding shoulder to lean on.

They cannot completely change them nor can they "save" them. My wife still at times deals with my bullshit from 30 years ago. So I have no love for that sweet girl saves the bad boy trope.

 

[Recidiva]

I don't know about audiobooks, but if you have something like a Kindle, a lot of books have 'text-to-speech' enabled. I have no idea how good that is, though. It may be devoid of inflection or something, which would kind of ruin the atmosphere, I'd think.

Kindle's text to speech is appalling.

Audiobooks are sometimes really benefited by the narrator - for perfect examples, Tina Fey's "Bossypants" is better read by her, and "Harry Potter" is best read by Stephen Fry.

 

[lovecraft68]

It is absolutely a train wreck fascination. The same reason I've read twilight numerous times and listened to the audiobook multiple times as well.

Speaking of, I need to download 50 shades from audible in a few months. That will be fun to listen to while I exercise. Is there other erotica in audiobook form? I need to check this out.

Ah, so what you're saying is you're a masochist!

 

[Mirisa]

I don't know about audiobooks, but if you have something like a Kindle, a lot of books have 'text-to-speech' enabled. I have no idea how good that is, though. It may be devoid of inflection or something, which would kind of ruin the atmosphere, I'd think.

Lol... I'm imagining this robot voice describing sex scenes. I'm not sure that would do it for me. Now I'm going to have to go try it just for fun.

 

[PennLady]

I don't think it's any more valid to like the book than to be critical of the book. Putting the time in on reading it gives you the right to have an opinion.

Well this is what I've been saying. I haven't read it, so any opinions I have of it are prefaced with that statement. If I read it, I'd have a better, more-informed opinion. I think you can form legitimate, if limited, opinions on things you haven't read (or movies you haven't seen, etc.). You have to, and people do it all the time -- there's not enough time to read or see everything and so you have to make your judgments.

 

[Recidiva]

I posted this on a BDSM thread and will post it here and prepare myself for a BDSM lashing.

I know it is upsetting to have BDSM tied to mental illness and child abuse. It annoys me when that device is used all the time.

However, child abuse can most certainly attract someone to BDSM.

I know because I was a badly abused child.

When you are an abused child your wires get seriously crossed. The very person who is supposed to love and care for you is also the one hurting you. Your love/hate/pain/pleasure wires get seriously crossed.

It is also very common for the abused, no matter how badly abused, to still desperately want to please the person who is the one abusing them.

Nothing like a D/S relationship though right?

I'm not saying this is always the case, but to sit there like many do and deny the correlation is ignorant.

There are levels of BDSM like there are anything else. In my life I have met two women who I would say truly fall under the term "Pain sluts" the type that will go so far they will sustain a permanent injury. The kind who if they end up with the wrong person will sustain that injury. Both were badly abused as children.

To the next point. The right person can help them. The right person can somewhat change them and if nothing else give them that understanding shoulder to lean on.

They cannot completely change them nor can they "save" them. My wife still at times deals with my bullshit from 30 years ago. So I have no love for that sweet girl saves the bad boy trope.

I'm not denying the correlation, but I think glorifying the correlation and providing no other context reflects a lack of research.

We're really dealing with authors here, who are not necessarily taking a BDSM viewpoint. The viewpoint here is that if some of us here were to write a BDSM story, we'd ask some questions and not just make up answers that match the most prevalent stereotype.

 

[Mirisa]

Ah, so what you're saying is you're a masochist!

Absolutely. I think that fact that I went to see breaking dawn in the theater and actually want to watch it again proves that I am a masochist! Bring on the train wreck!

I think part of it too is that I spend so much of my time reading research that the train wreck books are a nice resting time for my brain. I don't have to process or compile information. I can just sit back and watch the train wreck unfold.

 

[lovecraft68]

I'm not denying the correlation, but I think glorifying the correlation and providing no other context reflects a lack of research.

We're really dealing with authors here, who are not necessarily taking a BDSM viewpoint. The viewpoint here is that if some of us here were to write a BDSM story, we'd ask some questions and not just make up answers that match the most prevalent stereotype.

Agreed there is a difference in referencing something and glorifying something. The troubled bad boy to me does not create sympathy, but the "wow, he's cool!" anti-hero type attraction. There is nothing cool about being a "Bad boy" anyone that went through that is permanently broken and this guy was way to robotically portrayed to come across as anything, but an arrogant dick.

I know an author who wrote a very good BDSM novel (about 60k) on amazon.

She knew nothing about it at all. She went to a club where she met a guy who trained doms. She paid him several hundred dollars to answer hours worth of questions and to even observe some of his sessions.

I read the book and she really could have fooled me that she had no real experience. It can be done its just like anything else, some authors care about the product, some are hacks.

 

[lovecraft68]

Absolutely. I think that fact that I went to see breaking dawn in the theater and actually want to watch it again proves that I am a masochist! Bring on the train wreck!

I think part of it too is that I spend so much of my time reading research that the train wreck books are a nice resting time for my brain. I don't have to process or compile information. I can just sit back and watch the train wreck unfold.

I get it, its like watching a mindless movie like Roadhouse. Totally brainless macho action, but you can just shut it down and enjoy.

 

[Recidiva]

Agreed there is a difference in referencing something and glorifying something. The troubled bad boy to me does not create sympathy, but the "wow, he's cool!" anti-hero type attraction. There is nothing cool about being a "Bad boy" anyone that went through that is permanently broken and this guy was way to robotically portrayed to come across as anything, but an arrogant dick.

I know an author who wrote a very good BDSM novel (about 60k) on amazon.

She knew nothing about it at all. She went to a club where she met a guy who trained doms. She paid him several hundred dollars to answer hours worth of questions and to even observe some of his sessions.

I read the book and she really could have fooled me that she had no real experience. It can be done its just like anything else, some authors care about the product, some are hacks.

Right. You ask questions, you listen to the answers, and then you try to portray it according to the answers you get. The best authors think of the most interesting questions.

I think she had a failure of imagination and research. I can extend that to seeing why people would be offended by such for technical and social reasons. And it's as original as writing a story about a stripper with a distant father figure.

As a reader I was just bumped out of the story because of technical and factual assumptions that were wrong, not to mention British usage.

As a writer I'd probably give it a rating on the basis of funny/clever dialogue about 4% of the time. 2.4 on a scale of 10.

 

[lance gt]

At this point, it comes down to like/dislike the story on its merits of writing and style, as well as knowledge of the subject matter. What it does overall, is open a new genre to readers, who would otherwise never open a book based on BDSM. It has sparked an interest in the topic and many are flocking to see if it's their fantasy involved. It won't be long, before a more serious work is read and promoted, giving the readers an even deeper look into the lifestyle. It just has to get into it realistically enough to get the fantasy juices flowing in the readers and not offend them too much.