Commas and semi colons

[lovecraftsworld]

Okay, I'm coming here because I'm confused (and about grammar too!)

A couple of months ago someone who was editing a story for me, kept removing semi colon's, even though she said I was using them properly, and replaced them with commas.

The reasoning was that people "were getting away from semi colons".

I just got the forst part of my book back from my editor and its pretty much the same thing. Semi colons are being moved away from and replaced with commas.

So now when I'm writing, I'm getting this

Today was different, her heart was beating faster than normal and her stomach felt tight

I'm using a comma, but word has it highlighted and wants a semi colon.

So when has this changed, is it an "official" change?

What should I use when writing?

Also out of curiousity why do rules like this change? To guarantee people have to buy new copies of the CMS every year?

Oh, and yes, I mistakenly posted this under an alt, because my other half refuses to log out when she uses this and I keep forgetting that she does.

 

[_Lynn_]

I wouldn't leave the comma in your sentence. I would do this:

Today was different. Her heart was beating faster than normal and her stomach felt tight.

 

[RodenAddison]

Semicolon or em-dash

I am discovering the same thing in my studies. My editor isn't getting rid of them though, he's putting them in which I believe is still correct. While there is debate, my thinking is to go with what has been until the majority of usage books agree to a rule saying that it's gone. On the other hand, if you absolutely hate the ; then find a usage book that says it's absolutely gone and point to it when you want to defend yourself. I think you'll be hard pressed to find one.

Now if you're dealing with an editor who is going through your book and they are using the style of the publisher - that's a different deal. If anyone is willing to pay me to put comma splices in my writing, I'm all for it. I'll do it all day. I think semicolons are now viewed with suspicion as though it is pretentious. I try and keep them to a bare minimum.

Personally, I hate the semicolon, but the comma splice is still a sin in most circles. Certainly in formal writing it will remain so for a long time yet to come. My personal approach is to separate the clauses with a period unless the two sentences are so closely associated separating them would 'feel' wrong. (Yeah I know.) Some sentences feel so much like they belong together in the same sentence that they scream for a semicolon. Another option is to use the em-dash in the semicolon's place.

Let the games begin.

 

[mynameisben]

Okay, I'm coming here because I'm confused (and about grammar too!)

A couple of months ago someone who was editing a story for me, kept removing semi colon's, even though she said I was using them properly, and replaced them with commas.

The reasoning was that people "were getting away from semi colons".

I just got the forst part of my book back from my editor and its pretty much the same thing. Semi colons are being moved away from and replaced with commas.

So now when I'm writing, I'm getting this

Today was different, her heart was beating faster than normal and her stomach felt tight

I'm using a comma, but word has it highlighted and wants a semi colon.

So when has this changed, is it an "official" change?

What should I use when writing?

Also out of curiousity why do rules like this change? To guarantee people have to buy new copies of the CMS every year?

Oh, and yes, I mistakenly posted this under an alt, because my other half refuses to log out when she uses this and I keep forgetting that she does.

Language is a beast with legs. It's always on the move. GM puts out a new model of car every year, even though the previous year's models continue to roll along just fine. Fashions change, perceptions change, and the Chicago Manual of Style changes too. Accept the fact these things change and always will.

Here's my take on the semicolon: if you are writing fiction, then you will want to minimize using the semicolon almost to the point of abandoning it altogether; readers of fiction—especially readers of erotic fiction—just don't get fancy schmancy punctuation (e.g., em dashes, parenthetical clauses, and, god forbid, latin abbreviations, et. al).

When a fiction author uses a semicolon, even when used properly, it is often interpreted by their readers as pretentious writing. Proper semicolon use is an obtuse concept that most of us never really got when we struggled with its arcane rules in high school. Many people never quite got it. And seeing the semicolon rear its ugly head when trying to get lost in a fantasy can be a jarring experience for knucklehead and grammarian alike. Who wants to be ripped from a hot fuck scene to take a moment to consider whether punctuation is properly applied or to figure out what it even means? I know that I sure don't.

If you absolutely have to, go ahead and use a semicolon. But be as reluctant to do so as shooting your own kids. I'd think long and hard about ever using more than one of them in a 10K piece. The last thing you want to do is take your reader out of your story and force them to focus on the mechanics of your writing. It's the surest way to lose them forever.

Sometimes you're wrong, whether you're right or wrong.

Oh, and Microsoft Word doesn't know shit about grammar.

 

[palisa]

Styles do change, but even so, this is a pretty clear-cut matter. A comma splice is still a comma splice. Semicolons join two complete sentences, making a compound sentence, without the need of a conjunction.

CMS still calls for semicolons in those cases. No need to buy a new volume for that.

Sometimes people confuse this with the handling of compound predicate triplets (He walked in the door, turned on the light, and sat down on the sofa). If there's a double predicate, you don't need any commas; just use a conjunction. For a three-sequence string, commas are needed but not semicolons.

But I think the example you cited in your message absolutely needs a semicolon rather than a comma, and "people are getting away from them" isn't much of a reason.

Where there may be a difference of opinion is in cases where the lines between a compound predicate and a compound sentence are a bit blurred.

Today was different, it was exciting, and it was fast-paced.

Today was different, exciting, and fast-paced.

I would not punctuate the first example that way, but I wouldn't argue about it either. And I would agree there should not be semicolons in something like:

He was strong, he was fast, and he was murderous.

But to go back to your original example, there are different subjects so there are no compound predicates in sight.

Finally, and trying not to sound snobbish (but probably failing), I don't agree with some of the commentators that dropping semicolons makes you somehow "closer to your reader." If you're writing pulp fiction, maybe so. Putting "It is I" in the mouth of a taxi driver makes you look foolish not because you're using correct grammar but because you have a tin ear for dialogue.

 

[sr71plt]

You are being fed a ton of barf. In the example you gave:

Today was different, her heart was beating faster than normal and her stomach felt tight

a semicolon remains the best punctuation between "different" and "her." Putting a comma there creates a run-on sentence. A period would be permissible, but the thoughts of the two elements are related and short enough to justify a semicolon as the better choice. Your editors probably aren't really editors. Ask them to identify the editorial authority that says semicolons are being deemphasized.

(P.S., since the Chicago Manual of Style was mentioned here--its brand-new edition doesn't say anything at all about semicolons being any less encouraged in use than ever before.)

 

[lovecraft68]

You are being fed a ton of barf. In the example you gave:

Today was different, her heart was beating faster than normal and her stomach felt tight

a semicolon remains the best punctuation between "different" and "her." Putting a comma there creates a run-on sentence. A period would be permissible, but the thoughts of the two elements are related and short enough to justify a semicolon as the better choice. Your editors probably aren't really editors. Ask them to identify the editorial authority that says semicolons are being deemphasized.

(P.S., since the Chicago Manual of Style was mentioned here--its brand-new edition doesn't say anything at all about semicolons being any less encouraged in use than ever before.)

No, they're not pros, well one is a volunteer and one does some editing for excessia, but don;t think a "pro"

That's why I figured I would ask here, where there's more experience.

Because grammar is the wek part of my writing I do tend to take what people say as they know more tan me, but this seemed kind of strange.

I'll leave my example as is.

 

[BONNIEBREA]

No, no one is 'getting away from' semi-colons, although there are a heck of a lot of people who don't know how to use them.

Semi-colons are used between two independent clauses, and that is what you have here. Both clauses contain a complete thought including a noun and verb.

Today was different. (noun / 'to be' verb / predicate nominative)

Her heart was beating..... (adjective-noun / compound verb)

It could be punctuated with a comma+conjuction: '.. .was different, and her heart...' although I think that's a bad choice, because, as you'll see below, you actually have three independent clauses here, and something needs to be done to set the first off from the two that follow. Anyway, I wouldn't use a comma there.

Since you're not using a conjunction, the semi-colon is a good choice (but not the only one).

You could also express this as two sentences, since the meanings of the two expressions are only loosely related as they now stand since in the first sentence we're talking about 'today' as the subject, and in the second sentence about 'heart' as the subject.

If you wanted to link the two ideas more closely it would be best to rephrase the first sentence as something like: 'She felt completely different today.' That way, in the first sentence, you are actually talking about the character (rather than a day), and the idea in the second sentence simply becomes an explanation of specifically in what way her feeling/emotion was different.

If the first sentence were rephrased in that way, then another option would be to use a colon. A colon is used between independent clauses when there is no coordinating conjunction and the second clause acts to explain or illustrate the first clause, That's the case here.

'Her feelings were completely different today: her heart was beating faster than normal and her stomach felt tight'. The second clause is explanatory of precisely in what way her feelings were different, so a colon is really called for.

Another observation about this. The second clause really should have a comma after 'normal'.

In that second idea there are two independent clauses with a subject-verb combination. 'Her heart (noun) was beating (verb) faster' / 'her stomach (noun) felt (verb) tight '

Since these are independent clauses, they should be separated by a comma-coordinating conjunction combination. That feature makes the use of a semi-colon or colon even more imperative. When one (or both) of the clauses on either side of the semi-colon or colon contain one or more commas, then it is even more important to use the semi-colon or colon as a way to avoid confusion.

So, a good case can be made for either the semi-colon or the combination of a re-worded first clause and a colon, but not a comma.

You might want to pick up a Gregg's Reference Manual. It's a good, general-purpose guide on English grammar, usage, style, punctuation, how to handle numbers, plurals/possesives, and other issues. It's well-organized and easy to use.

 

[Dream_Operator]

Today was different, her heart was beating faster than normal and her stomach felt tight.

I'm no grammar expert, but doesn't this come down to the writer's intent? If the clause "her heart was beating faster than normal and her stomach felt tight" is acting as a modifier for the adjective "different", then it's really not an independent clause, is it?

Take a simpler example:

Today was miserable, cold and rainy.

You wouldn't use a period or semicolon in this case, would you?

Also, couldn't the case be made that "Today was different" is an introductory clause which is normally punctuated with a comma?

 

[BONNIEBREA]

I'm no grammar expert, but doesn't this come down to the writer's intent? If the clause "her heart was beating faster than normal and her stomach felt tight" is acting as a modifier for the adjective "different", then it's really not an independent clause, is it?

Take a simpler example:



You wouldn't use a period or semicolon in this case, would you?

Also, couldn't the case be made that "Today was different" is an introductory clause which is normally punctuated with a comma?

As to the first issue. There are such things as adjective phrases, but they a dependent clause. In this case - 'Her heart was beating faster than normal, and her stomach felt tight.' - we have an independent clause (in fact, two of them). So we don't have a dependent clause which can act as an adjective phrase. The words are two independent clauses, each with its own subject-verb combination, and so can't act as an adjective (dependent) phrase. They do tell in what way 'today was different', but they do it as independent clauses which should be set of, in this case, with a semi-colon. As I noted above: were the first part rewritten to make the person the subect, then the following independent clauses could be set off with a colon.

There was a thread a few days ago. Someone was asking about how to hyphenate dinner-plate-sized discs. The other way that concept could be written would be - 'The discs are the size of a dinner plate.' In that sentence 'the size of dinner plates' acts as a predicate adjective phrase (words that follow a 'to be' verb that act to rename the subject, or describe some characteristic of the subject), not really a dependent clause. And when a predicate adjective is reorganized and placed in front of the noun all the elements of the reorganized concept are hyphenated.

As to the second issue. Were the first part of the sentence ('Today was different') a dependent clause then it would be set off with a comma. But that's not the case here. The three words are an independent clause because they have a subject and verb {Today (subject) was ('to be' verb) different (predicate adjective)}, so setting off that independent clause with a comma would not be appropriate. That would only happen if the clause were dependent for its meaning on what follows.

The test of what kind of clause is in whether or not the clause can stand on its own as a sentence (independent) or not (dependent).

In the case in question all three ideas could stand in their own.

Today (subject) was (verb) different.

Her heart (subject) was beating (verb) faster then normal.

Her stomach (subject) felt (verb) tight.

So the options for putting those ideas together are:

Today was different; her heart was beating faster than normal, and her stomach felt tight.

or

Today she felt completely different: her heart was beating faster than normal, and her stomach felt tight.

 

[Dream_Operator]

Thanks for the feedback, Bonnie.

I guess we can agree to disagree on this. To me, a clause that acts as a modifier, is a modifier. The fact that it has a subject and verb is irrelevant. Who cares that it can it operate as a compete sentence? It doesn't serve that purpose in this case.

 

[PleasePeesMe]

For what it's worth...

Okay, I'm coming here because I'm confused (and about grammar too!)

A couple of months ago someone who was editing a story for me, kept removing semi colon's, even though she said I was using them properly, and replaced them with commas.

The reasoning was that people "were getting away from semi colons".

I just got the forst part of my book back from my editor and its pretty much the same thing. Semi colons are being moved away from and replaced with commas.

So now when I'm writing, I'm getting this

Today was different, her heart was beating faster than normal and her stomach felt tight

I'm using a comma, but word has it highlighted and wants a semi colon.

So when has this changed, is it an "official" change?

What should I use when writing?

Also out of curiousity why do rules like this change? To guarantee people have to buy new copies of the CMS every year?

Oh, and yes, I mistakenly posted this under an alt, because my other half refuses to log out when she uses this and I keep forgetting that she does.

Commas, semi colons, dashes, full points, their function is to make the reader pause. And as the writer, it's up to you how long you want them to pause. If you want them to pause a little longer, more deliberately than they would for a comma, use a semi-colon. And tell anyone who says otherwise to....mind their own business.

 

[sr71plt]

I'm no grammar expert, but doesn't this come down to the writer's intent? If the clause "her heart was beating faster than normal and her stomach felt tight" is acting as a modifier for the adjective "different", then it's really not an independent clause, is it?

In the original example, these are two independent clauses, because they both have both a subject and verb. That's the definition of an independent clause. Just sticking them together with a comma won't work (unless there is a third or more additional clauses, in which case it becomes a series). This isn't really up for a vote on a porn board.

In your other example, this is a series modifiers, not of independent clause. So it's just irrelevant (and U.S. publishing would put another comma before the "and").

 

[BONNIEBREA]

Thanks for the feedback, Bonnie.

I guess we can agree to disagree on this. To me, a clause that acts as a modifier, is a modifier. The fact that it has a subject and verb is irrelevant. Who cares that it can it operate as a compete sentence? It doesn't serve that purpose in this case.

AAARRRRRRGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!! I hate it!!!!!!!!

Dream, in your first post you wrote, 'I'm no grammar expert.'

Well, I'm like most people. There are about a million things I haven't got the first clue about. There is a limited number of things I can do well enough. And there are very few things I know very well. Writing and English grammar are two of those things.

I've just provided a careful explanation of why "a clause that acts as a modifier is a modifier. The fact that it has a subject and verb is irrelevant" is NOT the case in English grammar and usage. It IS relevant that some group of words has both a subject and a verb. It is what makes that group of words a sentence or an independent clause, rather than a dependent clause (that could have a number of functions - acting to modify a noun being one of them).

There are two possible responses to that information. One is: "I'll just agree to disagree." The other is: "Wow. I never knew that before. Thanks for passing along that important information about how the English language works. I'll keep my eyes open when I write and seek to incorporate that information in my writing."

Sorry. I just had to vent. I find myself experiencing terrible frustration when people, and especially WRITERS (of all people), just choose to cling to ignorance rather than start to learn about the medium they are using to express themselves.

There really are many great grammar and usage manuals out there, and they contain real information about how words in the English language get strung together. Please. Avail yourself!

 

[elfin_odalisque]

I wouldn't leave the comma in your sentence. I would do this:

Today was different. Her heart was beating faster than normal and her stomach felt tight.

Yes!Yes!,Yes!

sr, because we don't write for the elevated tightasses of the cms, can I just say that punctuation in lit stories should be kept to a minimum. ML highlights a point, but just dump your colons and semi-colons - probably your em-dashes and ellipses and just write a story with basic grammar.

Surely here, readability is the buzz word?

 

[PennLady]

can I just say that punctuation in lit stories should be kept to a minimum.

Wow. I've never heard of such a thing. I think people should punctuate as necessary, and according the standard rules, no matter if it's in a print book or online. Why should punctuation in Lit stories be "kept to a minimum"? That makes no sense to me. You mentioned readability in your post, but surely proper punctuation contributes to that.

 

[sr71plt]

If authors of Lit. stories are trying to acquire the writing style that translates to publishing, they will use more punctuation than the schools teach, not less, because publishing trends to require that the tracking of sentences be as clear to the reader as possible (thus, publishing uses the serial comma and strictly differentiates both independent/dependent that/which clauses and independent/dependent sentence clause by use of punctuation). If they are just writing for Lit. for enjoyment (and the joy of finding "get an editor" comments on their posted stories), they have a lot more leeway in the punctuation they use. (Of course at some point the Lit. editor will reject the entry as being too nonstandard in punctuation usage.)

What would Elfin know about what flies in a Lit. story, by the way? She hasn't posted a story to Lit. for more than six years.

PL: I think you'll find that Elfin makes a lot of "wow!?!" assertions about creative writing.

 

[MemphisMan9]

This thread is pretty badass.

- Geek

 

[colddiesel]

Yes!Yes!,Yes!

sr, because we don't write for the elevated tightasses of the cms, can I just say that punctuation in lit stories should be kept to a minimum. ML highlights a point, but just dump your colons and semi-colons - probably your em-dashes and ellipses and just write a story with basic grammar.

Surely here, readability is the buzz word?

I disagree elfin. The notion that punctuation should be kept to a minimum is fairly modern and largely dependent on the use of shorter sentences. I am re-reading Fielding's Tom Jones at the moment and am quite certain that longer sentences require more sophisticated punctuation. Fielding without colons and semi-colons would be unreadable. Less punctuation does not equate with better readability, orthodox punctuation does.

I think that the CMS is a useful guide, and I dont think it is ''tightass'' to follow it. It is a worse error to be sloppy, and if we start saying a particular convention doesn't matter, where do we stop?

However as an older and British trained person I must admit that I hardly ever use the em-dash, and almost never ellipses - tho' I don't feel particularly strongly about it.

 

[Pure]

lovecraftsworld and dreamoperator

//So now when I'm writing, I'm getting this

Today was different, her heart was beating faster than normal and her stomach felt tight//


I don't think any professional editor would suggest this (transform semicolon to comma), and I've never seen it in the worst of mass paperbacks, not that I read them much.

Short sentences are in. Semicolons are out (they are generally replaceable with periods, followed by a cap). The rules are quite simple: For most stuff, write at the 7th grade level, and the odd time you have a really literate audience you may hit grade 12 or even higher. People less than our advanced age do not have the attention span for the 20- or 60-word sentence (or worse).

==

dream said,


Quote:

Today was different, her heart was beating faster than normal and her stomach felt tight.

I'm no grammar expert, but doesn't this come down to the writer's intent? If the clause "her heart was beating faster than normal and her stomach felt tight" is acting as a modifier for the adjective "different", then it's really not an independent clause, is it? [A]

Take a simpler example:

Quote:

Today was miserable, cold and rainy.

You wouldn't use a period or semicolon in this case, would you? [-B-]

Also, couldn't the case be made that "Today was different" is an introductory clause which is normally punctuated with a comma? [C]

===

The answer to questions A, B, and C is 'no.'
[A] No, the second clause cannot be considered to modify 'different,' rather it elaborates the *clause*, 'today was different.' To modify 'different,' you would have to say, e.g., 'Today was very different.'

[-B-] No, you would not, but your example is a different kettle of fish from the original one. It's correctly punctuated as is.

[C] 'Today was miserable' is *not* an introductory clause; it's the main and only clause.

Your intent seems to be to find some farfetched analogy which would justify the supposed 'editor's' terrible recommendation to lovecraft. You did not succeed: The issue is two independent clauses, purportedly to be separated by a comma.

 

[palisa]

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/07/02/semicolons-a-love-story/

 

[mynameisben]

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/07/02/semicolons-a-love-story/

That's a great little read. Thanks for the link. I agree with both Vonnegut and with the NY Times columnist, as paradoxical as that may seem. "Never use a semicolon; it only shows you've been to college." That's how I'd have written it if I were Vonnegut. But I am not Vonnegut.

You have to write to your audience. If you're writing erotica to an audience of stroke and go enthusiasts, you're only going to break their rhythm when they stumble upon one of your semicolons. But not everything you write is going to be erotica on a porn site. Did you notice how elegantly the NY Times columnist slipped those two semicolons in at the end of his article? Nicely done, and to an appropriate audience.

Vonnegut was wrong about semicolons. He was wrong to say Never. Be that as it may, no writer in history ever wielded an asterisk* quite the way he did.


*Pick up a copy of Breakfast of Champions, and you'll see what I mean.

 

[sr71plt]

If you NEVER used a semicolon, you'd really be messing up readers when you wrote a complex series containing phrases set off by commas.

But even in the other use, between two independent clauses not joined by a conjunction to signal a closer connection between them than a period would, you would be unnecessarily restricting your bag of writing "tricks."

I don't agree that a semicolon is something a reader can't naturally hop over without hyperventilating. Using them occasionally is certainly better than running a series of short, choppy sentences, all ending in periods.

Talk about pedantic.

 

[BONNIEBREA]

You have to write to your audience. If you're writing erotica to an audience of stroke and go enthusiasts, you're only going to break their rhythm when they stumble upon one of your semicolons.

Thanks for this observation. When I read it I thought about my own writing and realized that I don't think I've ever used a semi-colon when writing a description of a sexual interaction of any kind. In fact, the whole idea of using one in that writing setting strikes me as rather silly and misplaced. Although, I use them as appropriate in other areas of a story without hesitation. I suppose it does matter what you're writing and for what audience. I don't suppose semi-colons have much of a place in graphic novels, but I'd think that a reader with a degree of literacy would expect them in most prose writing (and, I think, would be right to judge the author by their use or misuse).

 

[sr71plt]

I think I'm going to do a sidewalk poll of how many readers stumble on semicolons.

(Maybe I should do it on lawns, though, so they don't skin their knees on the concrete.)