Why We Find It Difficult To Give Your Poem Feedback

[Neonurotic]

I nicked this from a different thread and thought it would be a good topic to discuss:

Fair enough, but there is a difference which is very hard for some poets to see between "your poem sucks" and "you suck." While it might be rudely phrased, "your poem sucks" (or the somewhat more polite equivalent, "your poem is bad") is a valid comment about a particular poem. (Though without specifying anything about what is bad it isn't often very helpful.)

The problem that often occurs when trying to give feedback is that poets often read the former statement but hear the latter, take this as a personal affront and get angry or defensive, as if they have personally been insulted.

We (poets who frequent this forum) find many poems posted in their own threads without regard to what the thread poster desires so the poem and thread usually goes unnoticed. I consider these poems "Unattended Packages" because you don't know what you're going to get when you open them, gifts or bombs that are detonated once you comment on them.

Sometimes they're commented on by other poets then most often the original poster comes back feels insulted, that the feedback they received is not what they consider constructive feedback and other poets are personally attacking them. I can say from all the years I've been part of the PF&D, 10 years in all, I have only witnessed/given useful comments/constructive feedback. However, some poets are little more kind then others in said feedback (for which I think the Unattended Packages owners are more receptive and not Ted Kaczynski's).

So what exactly do you considered constructive feedback? And why do you comment or don't comment on random poem threads?

 

[butters]

most feedback can be considered constructive in some form or another: if the feedback's an honest representation of how that reader viewed the write, then it allows the author some insight into how their piece was received - if only by that individual. sometimes that can be a nasty shock, or a really pleasant surprise. sometimes just a bafflement.

i consider feedback most constructive when it does offer genuine insight, is clear, and points out areas where improvements can be made, words swapped with others for a richer impact, as well as indications as to which phrases/images create the most effective identity to the poem.

personally, these unattended writes don't trouble me in any way in regards to what response my comments might draw. i know i offer my true reactions and i'm not simply out to try and look smart or knowledgeable at the author's expense. critters who do that, and they exist, are not worthwhile listening to. once my thoughts are offered, it doesn't matter if the author doesn't feel they can use anything said - i've done my part, and when a writer gets a series of conflicting advice then it's down to them to sift through and feel their way to what works best for them, if anything.
by the same token, when others offered me their thoughts in those earlier years, it always surprised me that some expected me to make immediate changes to fit their expectations of how my write should look and could get really precious if i haven't done so.

i sometimes avoid commenting if there's so much to say it feels like too much hard work if i'm very busy (or lazy), or if i feel the author is too greedy with their demands for others' time yet fails to offer their own along with their thoughts on other posters' writings. in all honesty, i sometimes feel that those that would require serious time on my part to be able to offer anything in-depth are just too much effort - then i get embarrassed at my attitude and remember my own dreadful earlier writes. without the helpful comments from others, i'd still probably be writing in the same cringe-worthy way.


so - honesty is the very best feedback. it doesn't have to be untempered with kindness and isn't necessarily a failure if there's nothing one can say to make things better than they already are. if the suggestions made are made with the voice of the poem in mind, all should be well - no point at all in trying to rewrite someone else's poem in your own style. that's disrespectful. and never, ever, attack the author, no matter how deep you slice to take a poem apart.

 

[RedButterflySlut]

To me the level of critique needed varies- some poems are finished, and ready for critique. Other poems are done for writing practice. Some poems reach maturity, others are never destined to live up to the spotlight.

When I was the president of the poetry club at my old college- I would start writing drabbles, practice poems that are written to get your creative juices going, but not necessarily a polished work of art. I believe fully in writing for writing sake, but I also believe in the art of poetry.
Both forms of writing are important.


It all depends on what the author is going for, and what stage the poem is in. If a poem is at that stage of completion and needs critique to become a work of art, I try to go for the 'two things good to one thing bad' rule. If I can't meet that quotient, I tend not to comment on it at all.

 

[KlaytonFrost]

As chipbutty said, I think that any feedback that is an honest reaction to a piece of writing can be considered constructive. Though constructive criticism is not always what a poet or writer needs.

Often when starting out, a writer or poet might be very uncertain about their abilities. I think at this stage what they need most is encouragement. In their tender youth any critique can seem harsh and can cut deep.

When they start to take their writing more seriously, and get to the stage where they really want to develop themselves... that's when they need constructive critique.

However, as people often don't say what they're looking for, I don't think it's fair to get mad when someone critiques a posted poem. If you don't want feedback then say so, because otherwise people are just going to do what comes natural to them.

 

[champagne1982]

There's a difference between a quick bit of feedback and indepth constructive critique. First, every poster needs to remember that the creator of the piece is the ultimate editor of it; no one needs to be slighted or affronted by any words that someone says in response to either the author or the audience as long as it's not a personal attack. When I recommend that someone should find a better way to present their poem, I'm not telling them that they're dumb or an awful poet, I just explain that it would make the poem easier for me to even read, never mind provide feedback on it.

A review is also different than a critique and does in fact influence many people's view of a posted poem or story, these invite emotional responses to what's written in reference to someone else's effort, thus the new poems thread now lists recommendations and only positive reviews. There was a time when the reviewers could post an honest critique on any work, both positive and negative but the reaction to negative constructive criticism poisoned the forum, so those days are gone. Best to send negative opinions out very carefully or perhaps invite the author to inquire about your views in private messages.

Formally constructed critique takes loads of time, especially on a poem or story that is bad and quite frankly, I either find one positive thing and only provide feedback on any poem I find unappealing, or I avoid saying anything. Those poems I do take the time to critique have what I consider "good bones" and generally contain more points that I can provide positive ways to tweak improvements out of, than points I find would only improve the work by being thrown out. I always try to couch my comments with the statement that anything I write about the work is my opinion and is a gift for the person to accept or discard as they see fit. When I get burned, I write my interaction off with the individual as a bad experience and continue forward.

If I hurt someone with my critique I try to understand that some people don't have the emotional intelligence or maturity to stop taking critique about their work personally. It's tough to keep the locus of control internal when you toss your written emotions or experiences out there for the world to react on, but really? Around this forum, it's about the piece and not about the person.

So, that's why I find it difficult to critique random posts of poetry. I bother because it's really rewarding to see the development of a person and attribute some of their growth to what I offered in response to their poetry thread.

Take care...

 

[Angeline]

I like all feedback that tells me why, positive or negative. Unexplained praise or scorn teaches me nothing. In fact, when I do get something like "I love/hate this" with no further explanation I assume the person either didn't read the poem or didn't read it carefully enough to say anything of substance. I love getting feedback because I can learn from it and I really don't take anything personally. Senna Jawa taught me years ago to pay attention to the criticism I can learn from and jettison the rest. It was very good advice.

As far as giving feedback goes, I think I'm uniquely qualified because I have been an editor (as in it's my profession) for many years. I'm trained to edit on many levels from the very simple stuff like spelling and punctuation to more substantive things like theme and continuity. However unless I know you and know that you won't take my critique as a personal attack (and it's never intended that way), I will keep my comments general and try to focus on what works in a poem. There are some poems, often posted here with a request for feedback, that I won't comment on because I don't have anything good to say. If I don't see anything redeeming in someone's writing I'd rather just keep my mouth shut than dole out the tough love.

 

[Tzara]

I guess lately I've been more peeved than usual with people dropping in and asking for (or even demanding) feedback on their poem. The typical thread is started by someone new who basically shows up, starts a thread with a rather vague request for feedback, gets huffy or hurt when/if someone says anything that could be interpreted as negative about the poem, and who never shows any inclination to offer feedback to anyone else. The poem is usually bad--so bad that it is difficult to say much of anything specific about why it is bad. The poet often says something like "the words just flowed out of me" that implies (a) there has been no thought given to craft in the poem and (b) they consider their work to be both divinely inspired and intensely personal, so that anything other than some form of approbation is insulting the poet rather than the poem.

Now there's nothing wrong with being bad. I'm bad. I just hope I'm slowly getting to be less bad. I doubt anyone, even Yeats or Auden, started out good. No matter. If someone is truly interested in trying to get better, I am happy to try to help them. But I want to know they are serious about it.

As for myself, people are always welcome to say whatever they think about my poems, good or bad. I'd rather they also say something about what it was they liked or disliked and why they liked or disliked it because that is helpful to me, but if they don't want to, or can't articulate it, that's fine too.

 

[corndog_]

I won't give feedback on a poem on which the author has not already spent considerable time and energy. Until they have made an effort, why should I?

 

[champagne1982]

I understand the point everyone has made about the poet needing to invest as much time in their work as those who read and bother to comment (even) take to do that for them. I've noticed that many poem threads are started without any comment from the poet at all. I think it could spring back to a suggestion on the sticky thread "Read This First". There's something said about creating an archive thread in there... Or maybe I'm mistaken and the people posting are simply starting a thread because they can.

Face it, most of the Lit forums regulars are involved in many areas and not just the PoBo so their conversations and interactions may point them to this locale. Maybe because a friend sent a message suggesting they try their rap, poetry, verse or writing out over here. Or because sometimes there are encouraging words written that inspire the "hacks" to start really working on a composition rather than just spilling their panty drawer fluff out all over the board.

This is a unique community that is known for honest and valuable critique, really. Lots of people use it as a practice zone and not just a dumping ground for their creative garbage. Don't let the demand for feedback influence your opinions and just comment or don't according to how you wish. If a post turns you off just point the little arrow cursor at the little red x in the corner and don't bother responding.

I'll let you know if I've spent some honest effort on a piece and ask if anyone can offer input should that rare event occur... My juices have run dry, it seems and sometimes I can sputter out some dreck but not often.

Take care.

 

[letterman999]

Question

A critic must regard intent.

If a poet, either by confession, or
obvious in lines, admits his poem con-
cerns Lacanian rats, the critic must
not complain that the poem concerns La-
canian rats in form, and that the poem
has a 'Lacanian' content.

In my own case, I admitted to writing
poems rather cold and mechanical-- ones
without images.

If so, and it is, then, should a crit-
ic base their comments on the fact my
poems come without images?

Or argue that my poems are less for
not having images-- when imageless-
ness led the experiment? (poems are
experiments)

But I am not 'fixed.' If shown to be
in error, I shall resign my position
without anguish.

Letterman999

 

[Neonurotic]

I think if poets ask for feedback, expect those who do respond to have different perspective and advice for their poem. The poet cannot dictate how individuals view their writing. Also, Never take any critique/feedback as a personal attack, feedback is for the poem alone. If poets can't take feedback with grace then it's best not ask for it to begin with.

 

[letterman999]

Asking ...

If this comment to me.
No matter, I guess.

Yes, of course, what you say is correct.

But again, if a poem is announced as being
such and such, the critic is locked in to it,
no matter 'his' perspective lies somewhere
else.

If I write a poem about the color green, the
critic cannot complain about its greenness.

The critic can argue that the greeness is
poorly contructed, but he can't say the poem
ought to have been about the color purple
for the reason he, the critic, had been
taught that purple ought be in every poem.

Can he?

letterman999

 

[Neonurotic]

If this comment to me.
No matter, I guess.

Yes, of course, what you say is correct.

But again, if a poem is announced as being
such and such, the critic is locked in to it,
no matter 'his' perspective lies somewhere
else.

If I write a poem about the color green, the
critic cannot complain about its greenness.

The critic can argue that the greeness is
poorly contructed, but he can't say the poem
ought to have been about the color purple
for the reason he, the critic, had been
taught that purple ought be in every poem.

Can he?

letterman999

My comment was on topic to this thread, it had nothing to do with you. And I haven't said one word to you in any other thread.

As for your question, you're wrong. Feedback is whatever the person who leaves it to be what they think at the moment. You cannot make others feel or see what you see, the most you can do is influence them and that's the same for critique. The poem is yours, the feedback they leave is theirs.

 

[letterman999]

I'm out of line, sorry.

Being right isn't that important to me.

letterman999

 

[serpentwrap]

I believe in giving anonymous feedbacks. For the moment you leave your ID, your objectivity has either gone for a toss or will be questioned. Yeah, even if its a lit identity and not your real one, there's still some amount of bonding a poster develops with the imagined persona of other posters. And moment you start liking or disliking a person, one's feedback can never be absolutely objective.

I tried my hand at anonymous feedbacks some time ago, but there has been such anonymous animosity in the past, that few out here reacted rather aggressively against all anonymous posts.

Yeah, you can say I tucked in my tail and scampered away...

 

[Angeline]

I believe in giving anonymous feedbacks. For the moment you leave your ID, your objectivity has either gone for a toss or will be questioned. Yeah, even if its a lit identity and not your real one, there's still some amount of bonding a poster develops with the imagined persona of other posters. And moment you start liking or disliking a person, one's feedback can never be absolutely objective.

I tried my hand at anonymous feedbacks some time ago, but there has been such anonymous animosity in the past, that few out here reacted rather aggressively against all anonymous posts.

Yeah, you can say I tucked in my tail and scampered away...

On the one hand I see your point but on the other there is no such thing as absolute objectivity whether a name is associated with a comment or not. We always bring our own experiences and values to what we read. I'd probably like a poem a whole lot more if it reminded me of something by Frank O'Hara, for example, but that's just my preference. Personally I've never cared one way or the other; I only care that I learn something constructive from a comment.

I mean this is Lit, not The New Yorker. What's the worst thing that can happen? You get your poems one-bombed and people say mean things about them? Meh.

Anywho I'm sorry you scampered. I liked reading your poems.

 

[PandoraGlitters]

The best feedback comes from workshopping a poem. Mostly people don't do that. They put something on the wall and tell all their friends "Hey I put something on the wall. Pet me." And their friends pet them. And they never question their absolute perfection.

Workshopping is a process that requires a reader to deeply read a piece and sit with it for awhile. It requires the reader to respond honestly and not just pose as some clever bastard. It requires a knowledge of the language in which the poem was written. Mostly, it requires giving a shit. This is why we rarely do it.

 

[PandoraGlitters]

I'm out of line, sorry.

Being right isn't that important to me.

letterman999

Best response ever.

 

[letterman999]

when

Then workshopping herds the poem
not into a pen, but into a spa
with a girl leaning over
spraying spittle as she prepares
for the massage, which begins as rub
and ends as betterment's rash.

"Did my girl do something rash?"

"Yes, it was tough love."

l999

 

[PandoraGlitters]

Goatsmen herd. Sugarpants
when I spa a poem the spittle
is extra and I've been tested.
Entirely rash free.

But we can meter out
fee
t
if you think it is productive.

Probably isn't. The first question.

Always.

What is happening in the poem?
Next, what do you like about it?
Next, line by line what is your experience of the poem?
What devices are working or hindering your understanding?
What connections are you making when you read it (connotation).
What are you getting from the narrative tone?
What questions do you have of the writer?
What questions would the writer pose to the reader(s)?
Would you take this poem to lunch?
Buy it a coffee?

If it has no appetite because it is carved in marble,
don't bring it to a fucking workshop.



(Wow. I am unusually cursey today!)

 

[letterman999]

lady above

I must have your thoughts.


If a poem is all, all all about
the color blue in form, can a critc
suggest properly the poem ought
to have been about purple, because
when the critic went to poetry
class the professor said all poems,
at the least, ought talk a litte
about purple forms.

Is it that a critic can say anything
he wants to, because it's his crit,
afterall-- "and no goddamned poet can
tell me what to say."

Just asking.

l999

 

[PandoraGlitters]

It is okay to like or dislike purple. It is okay to like or dislike all things that contain purple (poems or grapes or sky). Probably people who dislike all purple at all times are deranged. Probably people who are deranged will not help one become a better poet.

If I were to take exception to a poet's tone or style, I would simply say this is not to my taste. It is okay to have taste. It is also helpful to note the things that are working in the poem for the individual reader at that particular point in time. Hopefully the reader can read.

Let's say I wrote a poem about castration. It is a vivid poem that very clearly depicts castration on both physical and emotional levels. Perhaps it is a very very good poem in the sense that it is clear, vivid, evokes past memory, salutes well regarded poets (maybe even Rumi!) and alludes to avante garde darlings (preferably someone with mental illness like Sade). Do you have to like it? Of course not. Perhaps, though, you would take the time to say why you did not like it if you thought the person were genuinely interested in editing. Probably you won't because it is clear (or at least obvious) why you would not like a poem that is themed on castration. The poet who even asks "why did you not like my poem? *blinkyblink*" is likely not genuinely asking this but is trying to provoke some sort of other discussion.

Probably the person is not interesting in editing and whatever you say is merely a stroke or blow to the ego. That's cool too if you have the inclination to play that.

This is good stuff, though. Fun chat. Ok outtie to Brooklyn to suck up to film producers. Woot!

 

[Neonurotic]

I must have your thoughts.


If a poem is all, all all about
the color blue in form, can a critc
suggest properly the poem ought
to have been about purple, because
when the critic went to poetry
class the professor said all poems,
at the least, ought talk a litte
about purple forms.

Is it that a critic can say anything
he wants to, because it's his crit,
afterall-- "and no goddamned poet can
tell me what to say."

Just asking.

l999

You've asked this question a few times receiving different answers so you were untruthful in your previous statement. You were being passive-aggressive in your apology, it IS important for you to be right.

You (or anyone) put your poem out there and ask for critique and the critic can say whatever they want then to argue (whine) after the fact is bad form. Like I said before, if you don't like the feedback you wanted, don't ask for it.

 

[letterman999]

No,

I don't have to be right.

I just have a question.
Maybe the question hadn't been
answered and I asked it again.

What's the problem?

I may ask it five more times.
It seems a reasonable question.

l999

 

[Neonurotic]

No,

I don't have to be right.

I just have a question.
Maybe the question hadn't been
answered and I asked it again.

What's the problem?

I may ask it five more times.
It seems a reasonable question.

l999

You can ask it many times as you like. I pointed out how insincere your apology was after your latter comments. Anyway, we are off topic on this thread and I really rather the discussion to return to "why those who leave feedback for others find it to difficult".