Underage sex/sex with minors

[isobelh]

You can always try. Send her a PM expressing your feelings.

Just understand that she has this conversation with somebody at least once a week and responds to a "Damn you Literotica for rejecting my under 18 story" post at least twice a year. She. HAS made herself clear on the subject repeatedly, so don't get your afore mentioned feelings hurt if she responds with a big 'ol no.

BTW, if it were up to me I'd toss the rape/nc crap out the door too!

Haha yeah I knew it would be a well-flogged horse. Maybe I will drop her a polite PM then. One site I was on ran a petition and did get the age limit changed, so it can happen!

This probably isn't really the best thread for my pov anyway, with that title.

But on the NC yeah I agree, if it were implemented with a bit more intelligence than Lushstories that would make a very sensible trade - 'no damaging sex' would make great sense as a policy IMHO.

 

[Safe_Bet]

Haha yeah I knew it would be a well-flogged horse. Maybe I will drop her a polite PM then. One site I was on ran a petition and did get the age limit changed, so it can happen!

This probably isn't really the best thread for my pov anyway, with that title.

But on the NC yeah I agree, if it were implemented with a bit more intelligence than Lushstories that would make a very sensible trade - 'no damaging sex' would make great sense as a policy IMHO.

Well, good luck with that.

If nothing else, there's always Lesbian Lolita's on ASSTR, if you just "gotta" and you swing that way.

 

[Bramblethorn]

There you can see how underage/child gets translated into 18+. But most of the rest of the world (including most other US states) uses 16. And this is a global site of course.

When there are several ages that might apply, it seems sensible to go for somewhere towards the top end of the range. "This is legal in Yemen" only works as an argument when you're in Yemen.

But I'm not sure why this discussion is focused only on age of consent. Sure the AoC is lower in some parts of the USA, but there's still a "legal age" of 18 that applies across the whole USA: courtesy of 18 USC 2257, you have to be 18 to appear in porn.

Neither of those laws apply directly to Literotica text content. 18 USC 2257 is specifically concerned with visual porn, and age-of-consent laws are about the age at which actual people can have sex, not the age at which fictional people can be depicted having sex. AFAIK - and I'll admit I haven't researched this thoroughly - there is no US law against writing about illegal acts sex with minors, since the CDA got struck down.

But concentrating only on the letter of today's law is a really short-sighted idea. Over-zealous cops and vigilantes can ruin your life even if you haven't broken the letter of the law. Maybe a couple of actual pedophiles start using Lit to swap their RL experiences, and use the PM system to recruit new people to their network. Maybe an AFA type digs up the owners' RL names and addresses and starts denouncing them as "publishers of child pornography". Maybe the State of California reacts to pressure by changing laws to make it harder for Lit to stay in business.

In the end, it's the site owners' call as to whether they want to take that risk. Just because other (smaller) sites have taken it and haven't so far suffered adverse consequences is not a guarantee of safety.

Of course, if it's nothing to do with possible consequences and they're just squicked by the idea of stories involving under-18 sex, that's also their right. My impression is that they've thought about this issue, and are probably already aware that some places allow sex below 18, and have nevertheless decided not to host that stuff here.

 

[isobelh]

When there are several ages that might apply, it seems sensible to go for somewhere towards the top end of the range. "This is legal in Yemen" only works as an argument when you're in Yemen.

But I'm not sure why this discussion is focused only on age of consent. Sure the AoC is lower in some parts of the USA, but there's still a "legal age" of 18 that applies across the whole USA: courtesy of 18 USC 2257, you have to be 18 to appear in porn.

Neither of those laws apply directly to Literotica text content. 18 USC 2257 is specifically concerned with visual porn, and age-of-consent laws are about the age at which actual people can have sex, not the age at which fictional people can be depicted having sex. AFAIK - and I'll admit I haven't researched this thoroughly - there is no US law against writing about illegal acts sex with minors, since the CDA got struck down.

But concentrating only on the letter of today's law is a really short-sighted idea. Over-zealous cops and vigilantes can ruin your life even if you haven't broken the letter of the law. Maybe a couple of actual pedophiles start using Lit to swap their RL experiences, and use the PM system to recruit new people to their network. Maybe an AFA type digs up the owners' RL names and addresses and starts denouncing them as "publishers of child pornography". Maybe the State of California reacts to pressure by changing laws to make it harder for Lit to stay in business.

In the end, it's the site owners' call as to whether they want to take that risk. Just because other (smaller) sites have taken it and haven't so far suffered adverse consequences is not a guarantee of safety.

Of course, if it's nothing to do with possible consequences and they're just squicked by the idea of stories involving under-18 sex, that's also their right. My impression is that they've thought about this issue, and are probably already aware that some places allow sex below 18, and have nevertheless decided not to host that stuff here.

Well as I've said it's totally Laurel's decision, of course, but people do change their minds sometimes.

16 is not paedophile material so I don't buy into your speculation on that count. Do you really think say Lushstories has those problems?

I agree the age of consent is irrelevant legally, but people keep bringing it up as an explanation. It IS relevant though that most countries and US states see 16 as perfectly acceptable.

Meanwhile it is a contradiction that age - 16 and 17 - is seized on while rape is allowed, don't you think? What's the underlying criterion? Damage? Protecting girls? It can't be, can it?

 

[isobelh]

Well, good luck with that.

If nothing else, there's always Lesbian Lolita's on ASSTR, if you just "gotta" and you swing that way.

I do swing that way and I have checked out Leslita, but the quality of writing is, er, variable and there's no rating system, no proper comment system, and not many reads. Literotica is perfect for me in every way except this 18 thing, so I thought I would add my vote to the OP's

There is a LOT of incomplete thinking about this issue so you never know till you try do you...

 

[Cruel2BKind]

Well as I've said it's totally Laurel's decision, of course, but people do change their minds sometimes.

16 is not paedophile material so I don't buy into your speculation on that count. Do you really think say Lushstories has those problems?

I agree the age of consent is irrelevant legally, but people keep bringing it up as an explanation. It IS relevant though that most countries and US states see 16 as perfectly acceptable.

Meanwhile it is a contradiction that age - 16 and 17 - is seized on while rape is allowed, don't you think? What's the underlying criterion? Damage? Protecting girls? It can't be, can it?

curious, how old are you?

Because I'm nineteen, and even I find the idea of fucking a sixteen year old kind of repellent.

 

[Bramblethorn]

16 is not paedophile material so I don't buy into your speculation on that count. Do you really think say Lushstories has those problems?

I don't hang out there, so I can't offer useful comment on that. I will note that Literotica is not Lushstories; it has a higher profile, and that means it's more likely to attract attention for things where a smaller outfit might be able to fly under the radar. And just because another outfit has gotten away with it to date doesn't mean that they're bullet-proof; it might just mean they've been lucky so far.

I'm aware that some folk see an important distinction between pedophilia, hebephilia, and ephebophilia. But there are plenty of others who don't pay much heed to that distinction, and see anything under-age as part of the same evil (and without particularly caring whether their standard of "under-age" is universal). They may be completely wrong, but that's beside the point; their perception is enough to motivate them, and you ignore the lynch-mob at your peril.

16 or 17 is far less problematic than younger ages; I don't believe there's a magic age at which a human being suddenly stops being a child and instantly becomes a fully-fledged adult, and certainly not everybody matures at the same rate. But by the nature of these things, you have to set a cutoff somewhere. (Some of the 16-year-olds I've known would make far better drivers than some of the 20-year-olds, but without an objective test for maturity, we just have to pick a number somewhere in the middle of the range and accept it won't always produce perfect results.)

(There is also a question about whether rules might need to allow a certain amount of safety margin in case of accidents. I've seen at least two stories here that came in a year or two under the stated age limit. Neither of them made a big thing about the age, and because the characters were otherwise consistent with 18-year-olds, I imagine it was easier for the mods to miss that they were marginally under-age.)

Meanwhile it is a contradiction that age - 16 and 17 - is seized on while rape is allowed, don't you think? What's the underlying criterion? Damage? Protecting girls? It can't be, can it?

Interesting question. I'm not in favour of banning depiction of illegal acts simply because they're illegal, but it certainly does seem odd that depiction of seventeen-year-olds having consensual sex is less permissible than outright rape.

For Literotica policy, the answer comes down to "that's what the owners decided", but I concede it's not a very satisfying answer; I respect their right to set rules for their own site but that doesn't preclude curiosity.

If I had to guess, I'd put a lot of it down to the fact that people are socialised to abhor pedophiles - and by extension, anything that could be mistaken for them - far more so even than 'normal' rapists. Don't get me wrong; I think child abuse is among the worst of crimes, and deserves to be reviled, but I also suspect there's a strong human desire there to have some underclass who you're allowed to hate unreservedly; if we somehow managed to eradicate pedophilia altogether, I think that hatred would redirect itself to some other target, deserving or undeserving.

(I don't think that's all of it; there's also something about how an adult relates to a rape fantasy based on adults, vs one that's based on children, but it's late here and I'm having trouble articulating it so I'm going to leave it here.)

 

[Handley_Page]

Have I missed something here?.
There is a Rule that says lower age limit is 18.
This is a local Rule, not a bit of Legislation.

Get over it, folks: As or when he Rule changes, then your characters may enjoy a younger age.
Until then,

Why the discussion ?

 

[TxRad]

Have I missed something here?.
There is a Rule that says lower age limit is 18.
This is a local Rule, not a bit of Legislation.

Get over it, folks: As or when he Rule changes, then your characters may enjoy a younger age.
Until then,

Why the discussion ?

Draw a circle on the wall and label "Bang Head Here"

Any other questions.

 

[Stella_Omega]

It's totally possible that Manu or Laurel gets off SO HARD on rape fantasies that they just had to include the category. Or a friend.

Why the fuck shouldn't they cater to themselves?

 

[Safe_Bet]

Draw a circle on the wall and label "Bang Head Here"

Any other questions.

Have I missed something here?.
There is a Rule that says lower age limit is 18.
This is a local Rule, not a bit of Legislation.

Get over it, folks: As or when he Rule changes, then your characters may enjoy a younger age.
Until then,

Why the discussion ?

Well, we are mostly having the discussion

BECAUSE WE FUCKING WANT TO!


If our discussion bothers y'all, may I kindly suggest that you

DON'T FUCKING READ IT
AND STFU!!!!

*ahem*

 

[TxRad]

Well, we are mostly having the discussion

BECAUSE WE FUCKING WANT TO!


If our discussion bothers y'all, may I kindly suggest that you

DON'T FUCKING READ IT
AND STFU!!!!

*ahem*

such a potty mouth

 

[Handley_Page]

Well, we are mostly having the discussion

BECAUSE WE FUCKING WANT TO!


If our discussion bothers y'all, may I kindly suggest that you

DON'T FUCKING READ IT
AND STFU!!!!

*ahem*

Nothing quite lite a subtle word with you is there, Amy.

 

[BTTap]

I was at lunch today, and was considering what to order. "Lesbian peanutbutter" (a term I'd never heard before starting, and following, this thread) popped into my head, so I had a peanutbutter and bacon hamburger.
Delicious!

 

[isobelh]

curious, how old are you?

Because I'm nineteen, and even I find the idea of fucking a sixteen year old kind of repellent.

Well I can't explain that lol. I'm tempted to ask about when you were 16, or 17, and about a girl who's 17, but it's not really relevant is it, just your personal taste, or how you approach sex or something. In 30 states and all of Europe it's legal, for the simple reason that girls are well developed by then. I've seen a pediatrician say that the healthiest age for pregnancy is 15.

Anyway I have been a 16-year-old girl, and sex was wonderful I can tell you

Now I am 20, though how that affects your argument I can't imagine!

 

[isobelh]

Have I missed something here?.
There is a Rule that says lower age limit is 18.
This is a local Rule, not a bit of Legislation.

Get over it, folks: As or when he Rule changes, then your characters may enjoy a younger age.
Until then,

Why the discussion ?

I think you missed my post saying people do sometimes embrace reasoned debate and change their minds about things.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I think you missed my post saying people do sometimes embrace reasoned debate and change their minds about things.

yeah,as if nobody has ever tried that tactic in all the years since the site opened.

In that span of years that are forbidden here, I fucked perhaps a hundred dudes and some dames. I loved sex, I loved exploring people sexually. I still do.

I don't bother to try publishing those stories here. I feel no need to. The rules here are what they are.

 

[oggbashan]

If the rule that no one has sex before their 18th birthday didn't exist, given that Literotica is based in the USA, I would suggest that it should be introduced.

Why? Because there are significant organisations in the US that are violently opposed to any form of erotica, and any underage sex gives them a weapon to attack this site.

We have to accept that there are people who consider that we authors of erotica are unrepentant sinners, corrupters of public morality, and that almost anything is justified to stop us purveying our filth.

 

[isobelh]

If the rule that no one has sex before their 18th birthday didn't exist, given that Literotica is based in the USA, I would suggest that it should be introduced.

Why? Because there are significant organisations in the US that are violently opposed to any form of erotica, and any underage sex gives them a weapon to attack this site.

We have to accept that there are people who consider that we authors of erotica are unrepentant sinners, corrupters of public morality, and that almost anything is justified to stop us purveying our filth.

So have other sex story sites been attacked by these organisations?

 

[Cruel2BKind]

So have other sex story sites been attacked by these organisations?

Not that I know of, but it does you good to remember that Literotica is at the top of the heap as far as viewership.

If someone is going to attack, there wont be a warning. It will be us.

 

[Safe_Bet]

Not that I know of, but it does you good to remember that Literotica is at the top of the heap as far as viewership.

If someone is going to attack, there wont be a warning. It will be us.

Will there be zombies, too? I like zombies!

 

[Bramblethorn]

So have other sex story sites been attacked by these organisations?

Yes. A few years back, LiveJournal was targeted by a group called "Warriors For Innocence" who threatened to go after their advertisers with a boycott campaign if they didn't remove "pedophile material". LJ management were intimidated enough to delete a whole bunch of accounts and communities (and then made things worse through inept communication, but if you're familiar with LJ you can take that as a given ;-)

Google "strikethrough" if you want the messy details.

 

[Stella_Omega]

So have other sex story sites been attacked by these organisations?

Yes.
Livejournal, which has a huge population of female writers, was attacked by a group of morality maniacs about four years ago. They partially caved-- The upshot of that was the new blogging community dreamwidth.com, and a legal defense board.

ETA: Jinx, Bramble!

ETA redux: http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=LJ_Strikethrough_2007

 

[isobelh]

Yes. A few years back, LiveJournal was targeted by a group called "Warriors For Innocence" who threatened to go after their advertisers with a boycott campaign if they didn't remove "pedophile material". LJ management were intimidated enough to delete a whole bunch of accounts and communities (and then made things worse through inept communication, but if you're familiar with LJ you can take that as a given ;-)

Google "strikethrough" if you want the messy details.

Hmm, yeah I see. But NC and incest were as much a part of the target as paedophilia apparently. And did the WFI define paedophilia as <18 or <16 or something else?

And what about xnxx, sexstorypost, asstr, Lush and all the others? They should be doomed along with Literotica .

So it doesn't seem like much of a reason for 18 to me, tbh.

 

[Cruel2BKind]

Hmm, yeah I see. But NC and incest were as much a part of the target as paedophilia apparently. And did the WFI define paedophilia as <18 or <16 or something else?

And what about xnxx, sexstorypost, asstr, Lush and all the others? They should be doomed along with Literotica .

So it doesn't seem like much of a reason for 18 to me, tbh.

If we're all doomed, then write your sweet-sixteen stories there.

I'm not sure why we are still talking about this.