BDSM and misogyny

[Edith_UK]

My theory on this has always been that, as society marginalises misogyny and male dominance, that people who were once just normals will find their way to BDSM. ( and other subcultural niches like Mormonism, etc).

I've seen plenty of online evidence that this is, indeed, the case.

Can you expand on that?

Do you mean as men and women who have 'traditional values' (i.e. men in charge, women does as she's bloody told) get marginalised by feminism then these people are gonna be sidling into munches?

Cos I've wondered that too.

 

[Netzach]

And that women take part time jobs for fuck all money cos we also bring up the kids, care for the neighbours and look after the house. But then I'm working class from the uk, not middle class US.

And I wonder how that all feeds into why the fuck I want to get flogged. And I just have no fucking idea

Absolutely. And here, when you take one of these part time jobs for fuck all, you have no access to health without going into an unrecoverable debt situation (not saying it's any easier to be UK working class, just different ways to be fucked over)

All of this makes debating high heels - or "is it ok if you get flogged" kind of - do what you wanna do, in my book.

 

[Edith_UK]

Absolutely. And here, when you take one of these part time jobs for fuck all, you have no access to health without going into an unrecoverable debt situation (not saying it's any easier to be UK working class, just different ways to be fucked over)

All of this makes debating high heels - or "is it ok if you get flogged" kind of - do what you wanna do, in my book.

Yep. Aint saying you can't. Just questioning the need and the way things are have led to this.

(and yer, I feel massively sorry for working class Americans without an NHS. Your fucked. No offence like, I mean the fuckin Tories are driving hard for it here but hopefully someone'll shoot the cunts in the back first )

 

[Netzach]

In my observation, people with complete buy in to traditional values are really in their own self-selected communities and realities - and a lot of other people are kind of adrift. Makes sense that they'd drift into BDSM as a marginalized sexuality where one might find acceptance by the unacceptable.

Like, ok, the traditional ideas of what it means to be a good man are sort of punctured, but we haven't really replaced them with any consistent messages.

This isn't one of those "feminization of men" arguments - if feminism had really won I think the whole culture, men included would be a little less sociopatically individualistic, but that's just me.

But I do think these guys are adrift without a sense of purpose, especially younger men. They've been told so many "never ever evers" and I see very little positive reinforcement of any masculine choices or options.

Also - single parent universe, hello. When there are decent role models, you have decent behaviors. However, the fantasy that "father" was always that role model is wishful looking at the past.

 

[Netzach]

The messaging in my family was such a weird concoction. Women ruled all - passive aggressively. The daughters could do NO right, the son could do NO wrong. Every mistake was an opportunity to flay the mistake-maker for years and years and years to come. I do find that other Jewish working class families of a generation have ONE gender which is golden and one which is crap among the children, in my family it happened to be the boys, but it's girls as often as not too. However, the men were in power only in theory, they were really hostages to women's self-imposed limitations and improvised "no I can't" for "no I won't."

I'm unsure why this would lead to my universe running on men-kiss-my-ass on principle, but I don't wonder why I disallow decisions being made for me unless delegated.

 

[Edith_UK]

Interesting posts Netzach.

I don't feel sorry for younger men really. They still got it made on the whole, working or middle class. Yer there might be some liberal middle class men who have identity crises, but most of em seem to struggle through that conflict to remain in charge.

Whip some arses for me, eh

 

[Edith_UK]

Yer I get what you mean about 'the hand that rocks the cradle...' but that's always seemed a little false to me, on a wider scale (not within your family right, cos what the fuck do I know bout that lol).

Maybe it's like, you know how people say it's really the submissive that holds the power in a bdsm relationship... what's your opinion on that?

 

[Netzach]

Yer I get what you mean about 'the hand that rocks the cradle...' but that's always seemed a little false to me, on a wider scale (not within your family right, cos what the fuck do I know bout that lol).

Maybe it's like, you know how people say it's really the submissive that holds the power in a bdsm relationship... what's your opinion on that?

Sometimes. Sometimes no.

When people codify these things it's crazy to me. We're talking about human relationships. There's someone who wants to fuck his window blinds out there somewhere, so who knows?

 

[midwestyankee]

Sometimes. Sometimes no.

When people codify these things it's crazy to me. We're talking about human relationships. There's someone who wants to fuck his window blinds out there somewhere, so who knows?

Would this come to be known as Venetian style (as an alternative to missionary style)?

 

[ownedsubgal]

When you say 'I am not a feminist' do you mean that you think men are better and more entitled to women to power, money and respect then just cos they are men?

no, that is not at all what i mean. nor do feminists hold a monopoly over those ideals.

 

[BonnyBlue]

Can that not be said for other types of relationships (familial or social) and even in religion? The one thing that may be hard to comprehend is that someone freely chooses to submit. If it's a well thought out, researched choice, why should it bother anyone else? True, it may not work for everyone but it does work. Would you take away someone's happiness just so you can feel better about your choices?

 

[BiBunny]

My opinion is that the majority of it is not so much misogyny as stupidity.

You see it in all age groups, but in men under 40 especially.

I have a theory as to why. I believe that most of these men go through their lives convinced that the sun shines out of their asses, and the women in their lives go out of their way to make them believe that this is so. It starts with their mothers and proceeds on up to all their girlfriends/wives/etc.

If you don't believe me, then take a look around. Often, if a woman works (or even if she doesn't), takes care of kids, cooks, cleans, goes to school, and negotiates world peace all at the same time, she's just doing what women are supposed to do. If a man changes a light bulb, then, goddamn, we're all supposed to drop everything we're doing and throw him a fucking parade.

And women encourage this entitled bullshit. I see it all the time on Facebook, for example.

"Oh, I have the best husband in the whole world. He cooked me dinner tonight!"

Yeah, but what about the other six nights of the week when you cook? Nobody falls all over themselves to tell you how awesome you are. It's just expected. But when a man does it, we have to stop the world and proclaim it from the housetops.

And these are not dumb country hicks, either. These are educated women with careers, people I went to college with. It's everywhere.

I feel like a lot of men in my age bracket, the Gen Xers and Gen Yers, have perfected this "I'm going to play stupid, and they'll pat me on the head patronizingly and let me off the hook, so I can go back to playing Xbox" act. They know, though, that if they decide to get up off their lazy asses and do the smallest thing, the women around them will act as though they've cured cancer.

So between their Mamas and their wives simultaneously infantilizing them and applauding their every deep breath like it's something to write home about, it's really no wonder these men believe that they're the Second Coming. When they show up, acting as though every woman in existence should throw herself at them, it's not because they hate women. It's because they've been conditioned to think that they're entitled to have anything they want without so much as lifting a finger to get it.

 

[DVS]

Would this come to be known as Venetian style (as an alternative to missionary style)?

Actually, I think it would be closer to an alternative to Greek.

 

[DVS]

Aside from the jokes, I'll put my twist on this. I was raised by parents that considered men and women to be equals. I'm the only son with 3 sisters, so maybe I didn't always believe that, because of sibling rivalry, but aside from that, I've grown up believing that and still do.

I know there are pictures of when my two older sisters would dress me up like a doll when I was just a baby boy, but unless they get out into the public, I think my secret is safe. And being just a baby, I was not responsible for how I looked.

I'm not a 24/7 dom, nor would I ever want to be one. As for a female partner, I'd prefer one who is equal in every way, but enjoys being submissive in her sexual life. I wouldn't care if she made more money than I do, or had a corporate job to my blue collar job. I'm not bothered by that kind of superiority.

I also don't bother trying to show my masculinity by owning a powerful muscle car. In fact, I have a dinky car, 4 cylinders/mild HP. It is red, but being the second owner, that wasn't my idea. Actually, I'd prefer another color, so the cops didn't see me so often.

 

[Curious_in_Cali]

Would this come to be known as Venetian style (as an alternative to missionary style)?

Actually, I think it would be closer to an alternative to Greek.

*gigglesnort*

 

[FurryFury]

How people choose to do things as long as they are all consenting adults misogyny or not is up to them.

I think most societies on this earth are rife with misogyny, nilla, kinked or not. I'm pretty sick of it in general but as I said, if they are above the age of consent and not trying to mess with me and my life, I really couldn't give a shit. However, when they DO try to mess with me and my life, that's when I get pissed. Right now there is a war on women politically. I'm mad as hell about it.

Personally, my kink isn't about misogyny at all. It's about two people fitting and caring for each other as well as they can. It's a win/win. Each person is treasured, regardless.

FF

 

[DVS]

I don't know how much I believe in Helen Gurley Brown's feminist ways, but like I said before, I believe in equality between the sexes. But, more power to her because she started it all and without her, women may still be considered a lesser gender to men.

This picture was the beginning for the feminists, with Cosmopolitan magazine taking the lead. And, from a male point of view, I think Burt was a good subject for the first picture. The next one was Arnold, long before he was California's "Govenater".

Just after Burt appeared in Cosmo (and mostly because of it), Playgirl magazine was started, and the movement was on. Women no longer had to be shy and say they only looked at a man's hands or his eyes, but were free to say they enjoyed the naked male body.

Burt in the buff

Edited to add:I'm sure this pissed off a few male chauvinist pigs.

 

[Jenneva]

Aside from the jokes, I'll put my twist on this. I was raised by parents that considered men and women to be equals. I'm the only son with 3 sisters, so maybe I didn't always believe that, because of sibling rivalry, but aside from that, I've grown up believing that and still do.

I know there are pictures of when my two older sisters would dress me up like a doll when I was just a baby boy, but unless they get out into the public, I think my secret is safe. And being just a baby, I was not responsible for how I looked.

I'm not a 24/7 dom, nor would I ever want to be one. As for a female partner, I'd prefer one who is equal in every way, but enjoys being submissive in her sexual life. I wouldn't care if she made more money than I do, or had a corporate job to my blue collar job. I'm not bothered by that kind of superiority.

I also don't bother trying to show my masculinity by owning a powerful muscle car. In fact, I have a dinky car, 4 cylinders/mild HP. It is red, but being the second owner, that wasn't my idea. Actually, I'd prefer another color, so the cops didn't see me so often.

wow i'm in love...

 

[DVS]

My opinion is that the majority of it is not so much misogyny as stupidity.

You see it in all age groups, but in men under 40 especially.

I have a theory as to why. I believe that most of these men go through their lives convinced that the sun shines out of their asses, and the women in their lives go out of their way to make them believe that this is so. It starts with their mothers and proceeds on up to all their girlfriends/wives/etc.

If you don't believe me, then take a look around. Often, if a woman works (or even if she doesn't), takes care of kids, cooks, cleans, goes to school, and negotiates world peace all at the same time, she's just doing what women are supposed to do. If a man changes a light bulb, then, goddamn, we're all supposed to drop everything we're doing and throw him a fucking parade.

And women encourage this entitled bullshit. I see it all the time on Facebook, for example.

"Oh, I have the best husband in the whole world. He cooked me dinner tonight!"

Yeah, but what about the other six nights of the week when you cook? Nobody falls all over themselves to tell you how awesome you are. It's just expected. But when a man does it, we have to stop the world and proclaim it from the housetops.

And these are not dumb country hicks, either. These are educated women with careers, people I went to college with. It's everywhere.

I feel like a lot of men in my age bracket, the Gen Xers and Gen Yers, have perfected this "I'm going to play stupid, and they'll pat me on the head patronizingly and let me off the hook, so I can go back to playing Xbox" act. They know, though, that if they decide to get up off their lazy asses and do the smallest thing, the women around them will act as though they've cured cancer.

So between their Mamas and their wives simultaneously infantilizing them and applauding their every deep breath like it's something to write home about, it's really no wonder these men believe that they're the Second Coming. When they show up, acting as though every woman in existence should throw herself at them, it's not because they hate women. It's because they've been conditioned to think that they're entitled to have anything they want without so much as lifting a finger to get it.

I agree with this, to a point, but I think they assume the sun is shaded by their hard cock, not shines out of their ass, as you mention. I'd guess that's why we see so many pics of hard cocks on this site. They are quite proud of them. From day one we are taught to fight for our honor, treat women as the weaker sex and be all macho in every way. We don't cry, no way!

And, I was an only son, and while I'm sure part of this was because my older brother died of SIDS a year before I was born, I think I was a bit of a favorite for my mother. It sometimes happens, when you are the only son. I'm sure it also happens when you are the only daughter. You become a daddy's girl. We usually grow out of it, but trust me, it isn't easy.

But, there are some males who don't really grow out of it, and just assume an adult role that fits the same template. And sadly, there are some women who allow them to do it or are forced to, because of their situation. We see a lot of it here, with women coming here to say they were abused by an ex or whatever. Most men wouldn't stand for that, but like I said, some men just never grow up.

 

[His_pet_slut]

I was told recently that all feminists looked like homely men. They never wore make up or had sex and were lesbians....

I replied, damn, I didn't get the memo. I am feminine...and bi, and submissive to my M~ who is very much a man... and a girly-girl through and through.

I believe in equality. I believe in equal wages for equal work. I do not believe there are certain things that are 'women's work' other than the actual act of pregnancy and giving birth...and lactating. Other than that...my son once made the mistake of saying he was glad his week to clean the bathroom was over because that was girl work. He found himself cleaning the bathroom for the next month. Funny thing. To this day, he keeps a cleaner house than either of his sisters.

I marched against the current political war on women this past Saturday. I marched with wives and mothers and grandmothers and daughters and sons and husbands and boyfriends. Some of us wore make up and skirts...and one of the little girls wore butterfly wings and some wore jeans and tee shirts and once fierce little girl carried a wooden sword with a sign on it that said Women and freedom, they go together...and it was a beautiful thing.

Misogynists come in all sizes, shapes and ages...and so do feminists and none of it really has anything to do with BDSM, in my opinion.

 

[Licia]

Misogyny?

The hubby recently said, "You've taught me to see beauty in every woman." After taking a second I asked if he meant physical attraction or their beauty as a person. "Beauty as a person," he nodded.

...

He'll be 39 this year. Strong, stable female leads weren't part of his earlier life.

Quite often I am told, "...he is afraid he will break me if he spanks me. He doesn't understand why I want to be treated rough. I live my life controlling every detail. I want to give it up when I go into the bedroom..." I suspect this translates into 'fuck me silly'.

Women were/are taught to deny 'perverse desires'; any explict sexual impulses were/are to be banished from her thoughts. *pokes at pregnancy and paternity* Growing up in that sort of society can be a recipe for a girl finding herself happy in chains. Not all masters are pricks of misery. I'd wager those with happy slaves are ahead of the game...and some folks are just born subbies.

Feminism?

If being a feminist means being equal to another human being, I've been a feminist all my life. It's impossible to be any less or any more human than the next homo sapien. If being a feminist means giving up my sexuality, that cause can use it's mouth to my arse.

 

[VanessaVixen]

Newbie poking her head in.

I'm more of a lurker than an active part of the community round here, so I'm not really sure how welcome my input is, but this thread was really fascinating to read and I wanted to join in a bit.

How much of this BDSM dynamic is misogyny in disguise?

I don't think BDSM as a whole is necessarily misogynistic at all. I think that some people who are misogynistic or abusive sometimes use BDSM as a mask for what they're getting up to - saying, 'I'm a PYL, so this is okay to do.' To me, there's a huge difference between being sadistic/dominant/what have you, and just being an abusive asshole. The former seeks out sexual activities or relationships with people whose kinks complement their own, and the latter simply does not see his/her bottom/sub/slave/whatever as a human being who should have choices at ALL.

During play, it's okay to objectify someone - that's a sexual thing, and it's acceptable if all parties are cool with it. But I have a harder time being accepting of the people who essentially say, 'You are nothing. You are worthless, and I hate you, and I will treat you like this whether we're fucking or not.' If a pyl agrees to be part of that dynamic, I don't see that as a healthy choice. It's one of the few situations where I actually have a problem with what adults consensually do in their own private homes.

Is it still abuse if someone agrees to it? I think it sometimes is. I think of the women who jump from drunken, abusive asshole, to drunken, abusive asshole and allow themselves to be treated like shit and I don't find that acceptable. In the same way, anyone who tries to grind down a pyl's sense of self-worth is being abusive, and just because s/he agrees to it doesn't make it okay.

It's probably a bad thing to make my first post round here saying I'm outright against a particular consensual activity. But it's pretty much the only one I have a problem with, and it's bothered me for a long time. I don't like to see anyone be treated like they're less than human, and the assholes who are hateful and emotionally cruel rather than supportive to their pyls, the people who say, 'This is how it will be and we will not decide the dynamics of this relationship together, because I am the amazing Grand Fucking Vizier and you are nothing,' make me furious.

If anyone's been in a relationship like that and enjoyed it, please, tell me why it's okay. I really do want to know if there's anyone who chooses that for any reason other than low self-esteem.

Sorry about the rant. It's just been nagging at my mind for a while.

 

[ownedsubgal]

I don't like to see anyone be treated like they're less than human, and the assholes who are hateful and emotionally cruel rather than supportive to their pyls, the people who say, 'This is how it will be and we will not decide the dynamics of this relationship together, because I am the amazing Grand Fucking Vizier and you are nothing,' make me furious.

If anyone's been in a relationship like that and enjoyed it, please, tell me why it's okay. I really do want to know if there's anyone who chooses that for any reason other than low self-esteem.

Sorry about the rant. It's just been nagging at my mind for a while.

no need to apologize, rants are commonplace around here.

my question to you, however, would be just how are you defining "hateful," or "emotionally cruel?" do you recognize that people can live a life of utter servitude and powerlessness, without being treated like crap or completely devalued?

i have been in a relationship for all of my adult life where i make no significant decisions, cannot refuse or deny him anything and cannot leave of my own volition. i am also loved dearly and treasured beyond description by this same man. and this is is the only kind of life i could ever tolerate. it does not all have to look like a lifetime sunday movie.

 

[VanessaVixen]

no need to apologize, rants are commonplace around here.

my question to you, however, would be just how are you defining "hateful," or "emotionally cruel?" do you recognize that people can live a life of utter servitude and powerlessness, without being treated like crap or completely devalued?

i have been in a relationship for all of my adult life where i make no significant decisions, cannot refuse or deny him anything and cannot leave of my own volition. i am also loved dearly and treasured beyond description by this same man. and this is is the only kind of life i could ever tolerate. it does not all have to look like a lifetime sunday movie.

That kind of relationship, while not something I really understand well, doesn't bother me the way it would if he treated you not with love, but with disdain. If he didn't care for you, didn't treasure you, constantly tore you down and told you you were worthless, I would consider that abusive even if you chose it. Since he loves you and values you, that's not what I'm ranting about. It's the people who insult their partners, who trap them by literally teaching them that they are inadequate and no one else would want them - those are the kinds of relationships I consider toxic, whether or not the BDSM label is slapped on it or not.

I admit I'm uncomfortable with the concept that you would not be able to leave if things went south, but I don't feel like that's really something I have a right to say anything about.

 

[Edith_UK]

Good posts Vanessa, glad you spoke up And yer, I agree (and most people here would I reckon) that abusive relationships can hide behind BDSM masks. Just as they hide behind 'normal' family life too. I think there's a case for saying that cos full-time bdsm relationships sail close to that line that it needs to be questioned. Like: it's ok to beat your wife if she wants you too and gets off on it, but not in anger in order to shut her the fuck up.

It's the pantomime aspect of bdsm again. The thing I'm concerned about with pantomime, is sometimes the mask slips and instead of consensual, sexy dominance you see ugly woman-hating rage.

Bonnyblue and Furryfury- yet again, I ain't saying you can't decide to make any decision you want about your personal life. Your flag-protected individualism and right to live how you see fit is safe wi me Do what you like, I fuckin do I just want to ask whether it's sexist