On dialogue tags

[SydneyBlake]

The "On Adverbs" thread managed to slide into another topic that I think is important enough to warrant its own thread, so I started it. I'm sure there have been others on this topic, so please feel free to post a link to it.

Here's a link to the adverbs thread:

http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?p=40622996&posted=1#post40622996

 

[cocput]

This is what I posted as example of stories with absolutely no tags at all.


Check Charlie's Birthday Present by pop_54 for a story without tags involving 3 players. Of course, it was an academic exercise. But you can always make out who is talking. pop_.54 has one more story with just conversations. Millie's Valentine present. This one has more players. The first one is in incest category, the second in Loving wives.

 

[cocput]

However, in my opinion, apologised isn't a dialogue tag. A tag is what you verbalize.

Same case with exasperated. Doesn't get verbalized, and hence cannot be a dialogue tag.

INCORRECT: "You could've told me earlier," Alina exasperated.
CORRECT: "You could've told me earlier." Alina exasperated.


There is another thread about tags in AH or SDC. Haven't searched for it yet.

 

[cocput]

This one isn't like the easier bad tags to pick out, e.g., "'I looked into the room and saw that he was wearing a dress,' he snickered."

This one's bad because you can't really say that phrase while snickering. At the minimum, you'd have to build in some . . . pauses to accommodate the physical needs of snickering.

On the "apologized" example, it's mostly that it's redundant, I think. "Sorry" is already an apology.

This one was posted by sr.

 

[cocput]

I had asked the question:

Isn't the atmost-four-tagless-dialogue convention good enough for that?

which was further clarified as:

I believe it means never go more than four lines of dialogue without an identifier tag?

For which the response was:

Well, no, then. I don't think that has much use. Each story has its individual needs.

 

[cocput]

In another set of exchanges:

Trying to find hard and fast rules to write by, in my opinion is a waste of energy.

Learn the rules, know the rules, and then break the rules whenever your artistic sensibilities demand it. But know you are breaking the rules and know exactly why whenever you do.

They are there to maintain understanding and the flow of the read.

 

[SydneyBlake]

Before I started educating myself more formally on the subject, I just went with what felt right. I admit, with my inexperience, this may have landed me in a swamp of unnecessary adverbs and cheap verbs. I do have decent instincts, but nothing beats knowledge.

In Self-Editing for Fiction Writers (2nd ed.), King and Browne said we need to resist the urge to explain our characters' emotions through dialogue tags. What is said should convey their emotions, and if it doesn't, then you need to reexamine your dialogue. You should stick to the verb said because it's transparent. "The reason those well-intentioned attempts at variety don't work is that verbs other than said tend to draw attention away from the dialogue." The purpose of tags is to make clear who is speaking, that's it.

Works for me.

Go ye therefore and apply to your writing. (Thank God for the search feature.)

 

[cocput]

I think sr commented in the other thread that too many saids are a turn-off.

 

[SydneyBlake]

I think sr commented in the other thread that too many saids are a turn-off.

Yes, if they aren't necessary to maintain flow and understanding.

This is art, not math. There are no strict formulas.

 

[cocput]

Yes, if they aren't necessary to maintain flow and understanding.

This is art, not math. There are no strict formulas.

So they say.

Art is about bending rules, while math is about following them meticulously.

All artists, though, use some formula or other.
There are research papers on Beethovan's symphonies and math out there.

 

[SydneyBlake]

There are research papers on Beethovan's symphonies and math out there.

There may be. Beethovan was a composer of the Classical era. Classical music is all about timing. One could say the same about Handel and Mozart.

Beethovan was still composing when music started to morph into what we call the Romantic era. Chopin. Litz. Wagner. Smetana. The formulas changed, often within one work. That's what made it art. Unpredictable, but still beautiful.

Wow, the first page, and I've already hijacked my own thread.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. The point of using said most of the time (as opposed to another dialogue tag) is to avoid drawing attention away from your dialogue. If you don't need a tag to maintain flow and understanding, then you can omit it altogether.

 

[cocput]

Don't worry.

I have hijacked your thread.


I am still pretty unsure about dialogue tags--when yo use what.

 

[SydneyBlake]

I am still pretty unsure about dialogue tags--when yo use what.

I found these resources to be useful:

Self-Editing for Fiction Writers: How to Edit Yourself into Print (2nd. ed.) by Renni Browne and Dave King

Read Chapter 5 "Dialogue Mechanics."

And On Writing: A Memoir of the Craft by Stephen King.

I'm sure there are others, but I've read these recently.

 

[cocput]

Could you give some examples of don'ts?

 

[sr71plt]

Same case with exasperated. Doesn't get verbalized, and hence cannot be a dialogue tag.

INCORRECT: "You could've told me earlier," Alina exasperated.
CORRECT: "You could've told me earlier." Alina exasperated.

Eh what? Both of these are incorrect. Alina can't exasperate. ("exasperate" isn't a verb.) She can only be exasperated.

 

[cocput]

Eh what? Both of these are incorrect. Alina can't exasperate. ("exasperate" isn't a verb.) She can only be exasperated.

Eh what? I thought i wrote exactly that. Or was there a typo?

My dictionary says:
exasperate(tr. v): To make very angry or impatient; annoy greatly.


My earlier point being, Alina can't verbalize exasperated, though she can talk with annoyance.
Alina can say the same words with exasperation.

 

[mynameisben]

Eh what? I thought i wrote exactly that. Or was there a typo?

My dictionary says:
exasperate(tr. v): To make very angry or impatient; annoy greatly.

Exasperated can, indeed, function as a verb, but only when applied to someone other than the speaker.

Correct: "Dagwood, you have exasperated me for the last time!" Blondie fumed.
Incorrect: "Dagwood, you leave me fuming!" Blondie exasperated.

 

[sr71plt]

OK, everyone who thinks "Alina exasperated." is a good sentence, chime in.

 

[sr71plt]

On the issue of using "said" too much, I frequently encounter "said" used as a dialogue tag for a question, where "asked" or "queried" both would be better and would relieve that monotonous litany of "saids."

 

[cocput]

Exasperated can, indeed, function as a verb, but only when applied to someone other than the speaker.

Correct: "Dagwood, you have exasperated me for the last time!" Blondie fumed.
Incorrect: "Dagwood, you leave me fuming!" Blondie exasperated.

Ok. I think I should more research when I pick a word for example then.

--scorpio

 

[cocput]

Is there a limit on how many saids can be used before it is considered monotonous?

I will have to be formulaic at least in the beginning, before I can start doing improvisations a lot.

--scorpio

 

[_Lynn_]

On the issue of using "said" too much, I frequently encounter "said" used as a dialogue tag for a question, where "asked" or "queried" both would be better and would relieve that monotonous litany of "saids."

I come across that as well and every single one bugs me.

 

[_Lynn_]

Is there a limit on how many saids can be used before it is considered monotonous?

I will have to be formulaic at least in the beginning, before I can start doing improvisations a lot.

--scorpio

Each story will be different. For example, if you have two characters in a story, the reader can follow the conversation even when the author doesn't use a lot of tags. When the story has several characters speaking, the author needs more tags to help the reader keep track of who's speaking.

Devising a formula for using 'said' seems too . . . mechanical.

 

[cocput]

Devising a formula for using 'said' seems too . . . mechanical.

yeah, I know it. But it kinda takes my worry away from one place.

I probably should concentrate on writing better dialogue. But that's going to take a longer time.
Though my story ideas are a bit cocky, I know what I can't chew.
Formulas sort of help me stop worry about searching for an appropriate tag.

 

[_Lynn_]

yeah, I know it. But it kinda takes my worry away from one place.

I probably should concentrate on writing better dialogue. But that's going to take a longer time.
Though my story ideas are a bit cocky, I know what I can't chew.
Formulas sort of help me stop worry about searching for an appropriate tag.

Concentrate on writing better dialogue first. Then deal with the tags.