Conscience rights on life and death issues under assault worldwide

[renard_ruse]

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/heal...se+vague+conscience+rights/6414102/story.html

The article makes out like its no big deal to take freedom away from people to exercise their human right to freedom of conscience on life and death issues.

The fact that individual rights to freedom of conscience is even being discussed anywhere in the world, much less from the perspective that somehow its those advocating for this most basic of rights to be respected who are somehow wrong or "extreme" is beyond chilling. Liberalism started out as expanding rights for individuals and has over time become a tyranical totalitarian nightmare that takes rights away from those who deviate from it or from the majority whim of the day.

Is this part of the goal of Obamacare here as well? If the longterm goal of Obama is to force doctors against their will to commit elective, non-medically essential abortion, or frankly any other non-essential procedure they don't wish to perform, there will be a fight. The vast majority of doctors, even many who are politically pro-abortion themselves don't want to preform abortions. You will loose thousands of otherwise qualified talented medical professionals.

And what about other conscience rights? Will medical students be forced to experiment on live animals, or even high school students in biology classes? What about other positions where animal rights issues are raised? Where does this insanity stop?

As both a pro-life regarding the unborn and an animal rights advocate, and as someone who cherishes and values freedom in general, this is beyond chilling. How can we even be having this discourse in 2012? Liberalism was originally about expanding individual liberty, now it seems its about totalitarianism and anyone who has a problem with that is demonized as an "extremist."

Something is seriously wrong, and we much ensure this doesn't happen in the US.

 

[KingOrfeo]

The fact that individual rights to freedom of conscience is even being discussed anywhere in the world . . .

Is perfectly ordinary.

 

[fgarvb1]

I believe that I mention several years ago about a culture of death that was developing here in the USA as well as the world.

I warned of the implications.

Y'all thought that I was crazy and a funny fool.

Not so funny now is it.

 

[Liar]

Your right of conscience ends when it takes the form of power over desicions that affects me. What you do in your private life is none of my business. But what you do in interacting with other people is their business.

 

[renard_ruse]

Your right of conscience ends when it takes the form of power over desicions that affects me. What you do in your private life is none of my business. But what you do in interacting with other people is their business.

Read the article, liar? Its bad enough that all this immoral evil is now public policy but that is not the issue here. That isn't enough from the real extremists, they are now trying to FORCE consciencious objectors to aid and abet things they view as evil or murderous. It goes from something that was always considered wrong becoming legal, and then not stopping at that but then trying to force everyone to say they agree with it, and then not stopping at that forcing them to be involved in it themselves.

 

[renard_ruse]

One more, thing, liar. Conscience rights include the right to PUBLICALLY state your views and bring them into the public square.

 

[Frizzle_Fry]

The article makes out like its no big deal to take freedom away from people to exercise their human right to freedom of conscience on life and death issues.

The fact that individual rights to freedom of conscience is even being discussed anywhere in the world, much less from the perspective that somehow its those advocating for this most basic of rights to be respected who are somehow wrong or "extreme" is beyond chilling.

Only because you refuse to acknowledge the opposing views validity. Which make no mistake they have very valid points, that's why it's such a heated topic.

I'm sure you enjoy the plethora of benefits that have come from our medical knowledge through animal experimentation.

I'm sure you also enjoy not having US streets flooded with millions of unwanted and abandoned children over running our already overwhelmed CPS/orphanages like some Mumbai slum creating an over all happier and healthier citizenry....

say it with me...."Thank you voluntary abortion and birth control!"
.

And what about other conscience rights? Will medical students be forced to experiment on live animals, or even high school students in biology classes? What about other positions where animal rights issues are raised? Where does this insanity stop?

When have medical students not experimented on live animals? It's their fucking job.....doctors of all sorts operate on animals every day, that includes humans.

If the longterm goal of Obama is to force doctors against their will to commit elective, non-medically essential abortion, or frankly any other non-essential procedure they don't wish to perform, there will be a fight.

You mean like forcing doctors to do unnecessary sonograms and make their patients wait x amount of unnecessary days after said sonogram before having said elective procedures? You are absolutely right...the government has no place telling an MD how to administer legal and safe medical procedures.

 

[renard_ruse]

Only because you refuse to acknowledge the opposing views validity. Which make no mistake they have very valid points, that's why it's such a heated topic.

I'm sure you enjoy the plethora of benefits that have come from our medical knowledge through animal experimentation.

I'm sure you also enjoy not having US streets flooded with millions of unwanted and abandoned children over running our already overwhelmed CPS/orphanages like some Mumbai slum creating an over all happier and healthier citizenry....

say it with me...."Thank you voluntary abortion and birth control!"
.



When have medical students not experimented on live animals? It's their f**king job.....doctors of all sorts operate on animals every day, that includes humans.

Would you have enjoyed being aborted?

Would you have enjoyed being experimented on?

Its sort of like the old saying, those who support slavery should be willing to have it practiced on them.

Its bad enough you seem to lack compassion for defenseless life, but at the very very very very least you must not be allowed to force those who do to do things that they consider to be monsterous.

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

Would you have enjoyed being aborted?

Would you have enjoyed being experimented on?

Its sort of like the old saying, those who support slavery should be willing to have it practiced on them.

Its bad enough you seem to lack compassion for defenseless life, but at the very very very very least you must not be allowed to force those who do to do things that they consider to be monsterous.

I was going to ask you the same thing.

Why didn't you answer his question?

 

[Liar]

Read the article, liar? Its bad enough that all this immoral evil is now public policy but that is not the issue here. That isn't enough from the real extremists, they are now trying to FORCE consciencious objectors to aid and abet things they view as evil or murderous. It goes from something that was always considered wrong becoming legal, and then not stopping at that but then trying to force everyone to say they agree with it, and then not stopping at that forcing them to be involved in it themselves.

I did read the article. What makes you think I didn't read it?

The problem with conscience objections is that it's easy to feel strongly in favor of them when they are for a pet cause you support. The trick is to turn the scenario on it's head and see if you still support the principle.

Let's say I'm a member of a weird little cult which says that the greatest moral wrong there is, is for me to touch a woman unless she's my wife. Should I be allowed to work as a nurse in an ER if I refuse to do that? Yes? No? Why or why not?

 

[renard_ruse]

I was going to ask you the same thing.

Why didn't you answer his question?

Would I have enjoyed being aborted? No.

Would I have enjoyed being experimented on? No.

I didn't want to dignify his "questions" but since you ask, I will go back and respond to him. Frankly, no one is going to change his mind and based on his other posts / threads I don't think he thinks things through very deeply, so I don't see much use, but I will.

 

[renard_ruse]

Only because you refuse to acknowledge the opposing views validity. Which make no mistake they have very valid points, that's why it's such a heated topic.

There is no valid point other than mean spiritedness and spite to force someone to choose between their job and preforming a task that they consider to be murderous or otherwise cruelty, when there are other staff members who can preform such task. If someone can perform 99% of their job tasks at high levels, has a REASONABLE moral objection to one or two tasks, there is no reason other than spite or control to try to force them to do those tasks. As for conscious objection in general we already have it, its well established on war, for example.

I'm sure you enjoy the plethora of benefits that have come from our medical knowledge through animal experimentation.

I don't "enjoy" medical advancements that may have partially come from cruelty and abuse of animals. In fact, I feel bad about it. In this day and age, there are increasingly alternatives that are better (its called technological advancement).

You might want to check out this site for more information:

http://www.pcrm.org/

I'm sure you also enjoy not having US streets flooded with millions of unwanted and abandoned children over running our already overwhelmed CPS/orphanages like some Mumbai slum creating an over all happier and healthier citizenry....

say it with me...."Thank you voluntary abortion and birth control!"

Abortion is legal in India, so I'm kind of confused as to your point.

In West Germany, abortion was illegal. The birth rate was below replacement level.

Abortion really has next to nothing to do with birth rates. I am in fact a huge supporter of reducing population growth, I just don't believe there is any need to kill the unborn to do so and in fact its pretty much unrelated to the issue.

At any rate, that is not the subject of the thread. We are not talking here about whether it should be legal, or even whether taxpayers should pay for it, but of individuals being FORCED to assist in it.

When have medical students not experimented on live animals? It's their f**king job.....doctors of all sorts operate on animals every day, that includes humans.

Check out the website above for more on better and more up to date alternatives to abusing live animals in medical training.

You mean like forcing doctors to do unnecessary sonograms and make their patients wait x amount of unnecessary days after said sonogram before having said elective procedures? You are absolutely right...the government has no place telling an MD how to administer legal and safe medical procedures.

Not the subject of the thread. False analogy. Nevertheless, the individual is still able to have the abortion, its completely legal. You oppose fully informed consent? Honestly, I'm not sure how even the most ardent pro-choice advocate could be against sonograms, but as I said that is not the issue in this discussion.

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

Not the subject of the thread. False analogy. Nevertheless, the individual is still able to have the abortion, its completely legal. You oppose fully informed consent? Honestly, I'm not sure how even the most ardent pro-choice advocate could be against sonograms, but as I said that is not the issue in this discussion.

You're cherry picking the issue.

How can you be against forcing people to have a medical procedure they don't want, and be for forcing other people to have a medical procedure they don't want?

 

[Frizzle_Fry]

Would you have enjoyed being aborted?

Emotional dribble....I would have never known, I may or may not have even physically felt anything, and I certainly would have had no emotional feelings about it.

Would you have enjoyed being experimented on?

No...fortunately I am a part of the privileged species on earth in that aspect. However I have had more than one major surgery just like millions of other Americans each year that saved my life. And knowing that surgery was performed by a MD who attained the knowledge needed to save me through both animal and human experimentation bothers me not even a tiny bit when I wake up in the morning.

Its sort of like the old saying, those who support slavery should be willing to have it practiced on them.

Slavery is endorced by god, it says so right in the Bible...plus it get's shit done. How can it be wrong???

J/K IDK how you drew the comparison between what is essentially voluntary population control and indentured servitude but ok. Is it just an emotional appeal or is there a legit correlation between the two?

Its bad enough you seem to lack compassion for defenseless life, but at the very very very very least you must not be allowed to force those who do to do things that they consider to be monsterous.

I don't lack compassion for defenseless life, I just understand that sometimes rational thought and logic must sometimes over ride emotional dribble.

For example.

If I am fucking starving...I will kill defenseless animals to feed myself, doesn't mean I feel good about wasting Mr.Bunny Rabbit to do so.

If I need to kill a few hundred rats, cats and monkeys to develop a medication that will save thousands or millions of humans from a terrible disease....not a problem. Doesn't mean I would feel good or feel nothing about injecting one of them with something that might kill them in a horrid manner.

If a 15 y/o girl get's knocked up and she keeps the kid, she not only ruins her life but her child's as well. They will be eternally doomed to be a bunch of welfare sucking trailer trash. Which isn't inherently bad....someone has to scrub toilets and pick up trash right?

If she decides she would rather abort the child, make a life for herself where she can support and nurture her child to it's full potential first and then have a child at that later point in her life....that's a good thing for everyone and I support giving people (inc doctors involved) the right to do so or to not do so.

I already agreed...the government should not be forcing MD's to do anything they feel violates their hippocratic oath.

 

[Liar]

There is no valid point other than mean spiritedness and spite to force someone to choose between their job and preforming a task that they consider to be murderous or otherwise cruelty, when there are other staff members who can preform such task. If someone can perform 99% of their job tasks at high levels, has a REASONABLE moral objection to one or two tasks, there is no reason other than spite or control to try to force them to do those tasks. As for conscious objection in general we already have it, its well established on war, for example.

Who decide what's, as you say, "REASONABLE"? Is the Government gonna have a list of valid religions who get to object to stuff on the basis of conceience? Ethics panels? Moral courts? What?

See, there's the problem. If it's a principle, you don't half-ass it. You either have it, and it applies equally to all, or you don't have it. Who are you to say that my objection is not reasonable?

 

[Frizzle_Fry]

There is no valid point other than mean spiritedness and spite to force someone to choose between their job and preforming a task that they consider to be murderous or otherwise cruelty, when there are other staff members who can preform such task. If someone can perform 99% of their job tasks at high levels, has a REASONABLE moral objection to one or two tasks, there is no reason other than spite or control to try to force them to do those tasks. As for conscious objection in general we already have it, its well established on war, for example.

Oh I agree....no one should be forced to do something they are morally opposed to in order to keep their job.

I don't "enjoy" medical advancements that may have partially come from cruelty and abuse of animals. In fact, I feel bad about it. In this day and age, there are increasingly alternatives that are better (its called technological advancement).

No one enjoys medical shit.....but we enjoy living disease free and with the knowledge that even a lot of really nasty injuries can be treated. And while I support using more humane research methods, the entirety of our medical knowledge base is still built on hundreds of years of animal/human experimentation.

Abortion is legal in India, so I'm kind of confused as to your point.

In West Germany, abortion was illegal. The birth rate was below replacement level.

Abortion really has next to nothing to do with birth rates. I am in fact a huge supporter of reducing population growth, I just don't believe there is any need to kill the unborn to do so and in fact its pretty much unrelated to the issue.

So you don't think if we prevented abortion in america it would have zero effect on the population? How many million abortions are there each year in the US? 1.2- 1.5?? Sounds about right...that's a lot of mouths to feed.

At any rate, that is not the subject of the thread. We are not talking here about whether it should be legal, or even whether taxpayers should pay for it, but of individuals being FORCED to assist in it.

Indeed....and no doc's shouldn't be forced to do that.

.

You oppose fully informed consent? Honestly, I'm not sure how even the most ardent pro-choice advocate could be against sonograms

What dose taking a picture of a zygote/fetus have to do with informing a woman of any pertinent information?

Is it going to inform her that having a child at this point in her life would or would not completely fuck her over?

Is it going to inform her of anything to do with the procedure itself?

No....it is nothing more than an emotional appeal, an intentional guilt trip MD's are FORCED to put their patients through because a political group decided it had the right to legislate their brand of morality.

Give me ONE good reason a woman NEEDS to see a sonogram and have a waiting period in order to make an informed decision?

 

[KingOrfeo]

I believe that I mention several years ago about a culture of death that was developing here in the USA as well as the world.

I warned of the implications.

Y'all thought that I was crazy and a funny fool.

Not so funny now is it.

Neither funny nor sad. Nor a culture of death.

 

[patrick1]

<< Liberalism was originally about expanding individual liberty, now it seems its about totalitarianism and anyone who has a problem with that is demonized as an "extremist." >>

This theme seems common among many north American correspondents. It's not common in Europe. I don't accept that people are being labelled as extremist for having a different point of view. Where is this labelling going on? Why are you suggesting that somehow because I'm a social liberal I agree with such labelling? Or is this a phantom? Where are the actual examples?

I think if you trace the origins of 'liberalism' you find from early days a debate about how to arbitrate - if any institution has such a right at all - between different freedoms.

Interestingly the opening article was pretty much about same sex marriage, but has been diverted on to abortion rights. Should a public servant whose job is to register and conduct civil marriages have some kind of right of conscience? This is not a life and death issue, but it matters a lot to some people.

 

[Mike_Yates]

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/heal...se+vague+conscience+rights/6414102/story.html

The article makes out like its no big deal to take freedom away from people to exercise their human right to freedom of conscience on life and death issues.

The fact that individual rights to freedom of conscience is even being discussed anywhere in the world, much less from the perspective that somehow its those advocating for this most basic of rights to be respected who are somehow wrong or "extreme" is beyond chilling. Liberalism started out as expanding rights for individuals and has over time become a tyranical totalitarian nightmare that takes rights away from those who deviate from it or from the majority whim of the day.

Is this part of the goal of Obamacare here as well? If the longterm goal of Obama is to force doctors against their will to commit elective, non-medically essential abortion, or frankly any other non-essential procedure they don't wish to perform, there will be a fight. The vast majority of doctors, even many who are politically pro-abortion themselves don't want to preform abortions. You will loose thousands of otherwise qualified talented medical professionals.

And what about other conscience rights? Will medical students be forced to experiment on live animals, or even high school students in biology classes? What about other positions where animal rights issues are raised? Where does this insanity stop?

As both a pro-life regarding the unborn and an animal rights advocate, and as someone who cherishes and values freedom in general, this is beyond chilling. How can we even be having this discourse in 2012? Liberalism was originally about expanding individual liberty, now it seems its about totalitarianism and anyone who has a problem with that is demonized as an "extremist."

Something is seriously wrong, and we much ensure this doesn't happen in the US.

I don't want to sound cruel or evil, but I firmly believe in repressing the rights of disabled people, especially if they have mental disabilities. They are of very little use to society and can be enormous economic burdens to their community. It is equally important to perform abortions on destitute women and families.

I can say that as an individual with borderline intellectual functioning. Screw ethics and human rights, we need to stop these runts from being born! Most of them go on to have extremely difficult and dysfunctional lives. I would know this because my own disabilities (intellectual/cognitive) have prevented me from doing many things in my life.

I knew right from the very beginning that eugenics was the ultimate objective of Obamacare. If you look into it, you will conclude that the US healthcare system is closely structured around the philosophy of eugenics. The excessively high cost of health care is for a reason, it makes it practically unavailable to the poor, because the powers that be see them as being "unfit" and thus, should be eliminated. Don't even get me started on the socio-political reasons behind unaffordable college tuition costs!

Read here about Social Darwinism.

Eugenics laws in countries like China such as forced abortions and sterilizations should be implemented throughout the entire world. The only thing preventing this is bleeding heart liberalism and human rights advocacy. Since 9/11, the merger of corporate and state power and the erosion of democracy witnessed in free countries such as the US, Canada, Britain, and so forth will eventually circumvent the legal constraints prohibiting the kinds of eugenics policing the powerful corporations and wealthy globalists want to force on us.

Did I forget to mention there being chemical sterilants as well as live cancer viruses in virtually ALL vaccines? Did you know that fluoride in water causes fertility problems? What about the carcinogenic agents in processed foods and meats? You think this isn't intentional?

There is evidence to point out that HIV/AIDS is a "eugenics plague" and artificial laboratory-concoction meant to eliminate herds of hundreds of millions of "unfit" and "genetically inferior" populations throughout Africa and the rest of the world.

Whether you like it or not, eugenics is all around you! Corporations and governments are deliberately poisoning us and profiting from it. It has even stepped into the theaters of outright murder, genocide, and bio-terrorism!

Bill Gates and David Rockefeller along with the United Nations and World Health Organization sure do know an awful lot about eugenics.

The giant multinational corporations, social engineers, wealthy oligarchs, shadow government and other powers that be look at you like how biologists look at bacteria through a microscope. You are a germ!

YOUR GOVERNMENT IS NOT LOOKING OUT FOR YOUR HEALTH AND WELL BEING, THEY WANT YOU AND YOUR WHOLE FAMILY TO GET SICK AND DIE BECAUSE THEY THINK THAT YOU ARE WEAK AND STUPID! AND THEY ARE TIRELESSLY WORKING AROUND THE CLOCK TO SOLVE ALL OF THE WORLD'S PROBLEMS!