Justice for Trayvon??

[busybody..]

So your sticking with the Zimmerman following someone makes him a victim defense? Just so I'm clear on all of this encase I ever happen to find you in Florida. I think I'll follow you for a few blocks. Call the police just so they know I'm following you, I'll even walk up to you and tell you I'm about to kill you, after all I want you to throw the first punch and since you won't be around to give your side of the story it won't much matter whether I swore to kill you or not.

No DUMMY

as a WATCH CAPTIAN of teh COMMUNITY.....with no doubt signs all around taht the community was under watch....He was SUPPOSED to do what he did and EXPECTED to do what he did

 

[RjThoughts]

So your sticking with the Zimmerman following someone makes him a victim defense? Just so I'm clear on all of this encase I ever happen to find you in Florida. I think I'll follow you for a few blocks. Call the police just so they know I'm following you, I'll even walk up to you and tell you I'm about to kill you, after all I want you to throw the first punch and since you won't be around to give your side of the story it won't much matter whether I swore to kill you or not.

To some, a police officer, or an official agent thereof, telling you to stop isn't an official and lawful order. So when a police officer shakes his head when you're about to touch him, that's not an official or lawful order.

 

[RjThoughts]

No DUMMY

as a WATCH CAPTIAN of teh COMMUNITY.....with no doubt signs all around taht the community was under watch....He was SUPPOSED to do what he did and EXPECTED to do what he did

Um, he was just a volunteer, not the official captain.

 

[Wrong Element]

See what I mean? You don't have the facts, yet you've determined that Zimmerman acted illegally, and that Martin is innocent. How do you know what happened just prior to the shooting?

:


She didn't say he acted illegally; in fact she drew the key distinction between "killing" and "murdering." Here's her original post:

I think Zimmerman shot and killed an innocent boy. Whether he can be found guilty of murder/manslaughter in a court of law, I dont know.

That Zimmerman killed Martin is not a fact in dispute. Murder and manslaughter are crimes, but not all killings are crimes. That's for the system to decide, and why I think a trial is going to be necessary in this case.

 

[unregistered]

 

[Wrong Element]

"We don't need to you do that"
It's an order to STOP!!! Common sense would tell you it is.

I don't think saying something like that is meant as an order. It's more along the lines of "advice it would behoove you to follow, because we know the best way to handle these situations." If Zimmerman ends up being arrested, failure to obey the guy on the phone isn't going to be one of the charges against him.

 

[KingOrfeo]

Apropos of nothing, yesterday for the first time I saw a full-face color pic of Trayvon Martin in a newspaper, and the first thing I thought was, "That's Denzel Washington!" Looks just like a young Denzel.

 

[BoyNextDoor]

This.

What is he going to be arrested and tried for?

 

[busybody..]

Um, he was just a volunteer, not the official captain.

where I live they have similiar volunters

there are also signs everywhere

EVERYONE WALKING AROUND KNOWS ABOUT IT

there is JUST one reason NOT to stop when they say stop

and no volunteer in his RIGHT mind would NOT find it

"alarming" when teh person doesnt stop

having said that

when GZ was told to go back to the car, he did, only to be confronted by the CRIME SEEKING THUG and attacked

 

[TexasWife25]

If, assuming there actually is one, the coroners report shows there was no bruising on Trayvons hands, the type of bruising one might get from punching someone so hard you break their nose. Does that add enough doubt to Zimmermans defense?

 

[unregistered]

 

[Dream59]

"We don't need to you do that"
It's an order to STOP!!! Common sense would tell you it is.

So your sticking with the Zimmerman following someone makes him a victim defense? Just so I'm clear on all of this encase I ever happen to find you in Florida. I think I'll follow you for a few blocks. Call the police just so they know I'm following you, I'll even walk up to you and tell you I'm about to kill you, after all I want you to throw the first punch and since you won't be around to give your side of the story it won't much matter whether I swore to kill you or not.

Telling someone not to do that or wether Trayvon was followed, pushed, or grabbed is not what this case hinges on. If you and I are in a verbal altercation and I push you or grab you, or even hit you, you have the right to self defense. But if for a minor assault you then get on top of me and start banging my head on the concrete, something that can reasonably be expected to cause severe brain injury, or death, you have exceeded your right to self defense. In the eyes of the law, once a person is on the ground, in most cases they are considered to NOT be an immediate threat. This case is going to hinge on wether Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman, and wether Zimmerman had reason to belive that he was in grave danger of death or of severe bodily harm.

Just because you do not like the outcome it does not change wether Zimmerman used leathal force legally. Trayvons age, skittles and tea, past transgressions in school, clothing, wether Zimmerman was following before or after being told not to do so, Zimmermans past, The number of burglaries, and wether one was armed and the other wasn't, has NOTHING to do with the final outcome of this incident.

 

[BoyNextDoor]

I give up.

Littering?

Uhmmm, Loiteing?


Uhmmmmm, jay walking.


Your turn.



Electricity. Best shit ever invented.

You are wicked funny.

The cops cuffed him and brought him to the station as soon as it happened. They let him go. He was not arrested. Why?

 

[Lorilei]

If, assuming there actually is one, the coroners report shows there was no bruising on Trayvons hands, the type of bruising one might get from punching someone so hard you break their nose. Does that add enough doubt to Zimmermans defense?

I don't know about the coroner, but the funeral home employee who prepared his body said there were no such injuries.

 

[Dream59]

To some, a police officer, or an official agent thereof, telling you to stop isn't an official and lawful order. So when a police officer shakes his head when you're about to touch him, that's not an official or lawful order.

Dispatchers rarely are commisioned law enforcement officers and telling someone something on the phone is rarely considered lawful anyway. Situations change too quickly and what is the right thing to do now may not be 20 secongs later.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Telling someone not to do that or wether Trayvon was followed, pushed, or grabbed is not what this case hinges on. If you and I are in a verbal altercation and I push you or grab you, or even hit you, you have the right to self defense. But if for a minor assault you then get on top of me and start banging my head on the concrete, something that can reasonably be expected to cause severe brain injury, or death, you have exceeded your right to self defense. In the eyes of the law, once a person is on the ground, in most cases they are considered to NOT be an immediate threat. This case is going to hinge on wether Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman, and wether Zimmerman had reason to belive that he was in grave danger of death or of severe bodily harm.

Just because you do not like the outcome it does not change wether Zimmerman used leathal force legally. Trayvons age, skittles and tea, past transgressions in school, clothing, wether Zimmerman was following before or after being told not to do so, Zimmermans past, The number of burglaries, and wether one was armed and the other wasn't, has NOTHING to do with the final outcome of this incident.

Which is still assuming that there is a case, which had you and yours won there wouldn't have been.

 

[Dream59]

If, assuming there actually is one, the coroners report shows there was no bruising on Trayvons hands, the type of bruising one might get from punching someone so hard you break their nose. Does that add enough doubt to Zimmermans defense?

Not really. He could have hit him with the heel of his hand, an elbow, or the fact that one punch may not leave extensive bruising. I actually feel like, with what I have heard, and I will admitt surmised, I believe that Trayvon may have been within his rights until he climed on top of Zimmerman and started to bang his head on the concrete. If he did bang his head on the concrete.

 

[Dream59]

Which is still assuming that there is a case, which had you and yours won there wouldn't have been.

I'm sorry Sean I do not understand what you are saying.

 

[TexasWife25]

Not really. He could have hit him with the heel of his hand, an elbow, or the fact that one puch may not leave extensive bruising. I actually feel like, with what I have heard, and I will admitt surmised, I believe that Trayvon may have been within his rights until he climed on top of Zimmerman and started to bang his head on the cncrete. If he did bang his head on the concrete.

What if they were rolling around? Ive read articles that say witnesses also saw Zimmerman on top of Trayvon .. in a fight theres lots of back and forth.

Also, if he did slam his head into the concrete, wouldnt the concrete have blood from the fight? So ... assuming the police took photos of the scene, they should confirm Zimmermans story.

 

[IrezumiKiss]

When I saw that the two Lit GB "Trayvon Threads" were being bumped up after a near three-day sink to the bottom of the pile, I wondered if they were being raised with new relevancy or more squawking.

Then I remembered that, much like the substance inside balloons that make them rise and float, squawking contains hot air and natural gas. Not by everybody of course, but the smell of desperate deflection sure is hard to mask.

Anyway, Vette's thread is a lost cause, so...

UPDATE 35, 1:15 p.m. EDT, Monday, April 2: Screams on 911 call aren't Zimmerman's, experts say; Ann Coulter weighs in

Two voice-analysis experts enlisted by the Orlando Sentinel have concluded that the screaming voice on a 911 recording of the Trayvon killing is not shooter George Zimmerman. Zimmerman and his family have insisted that the screaming—which precedes the fatal gunshot—came from Zimmerman himself, who was in fear for his life. But that's not possible, say experts Tom Owen and Ed Primeau. Both used different techniques to a analyze the recording and concluded the screaming couldn't have been the shooter:

"I took all of the screams and put those together, and cut out everything else," Owen says.

The software compared that audio to Zimmerman's voice. It returned a 48 percent match. Owen said to reach a positive match with audio of this quality, he'd expect higher than 90 percent.

"As a result of that, you can say with reasonable scientific certainty that it's not Zimmerman," Owen says, stressing that he cannot confirm the voice as Trayvon's, because he didn't have a sample of the teen's voice to compare...

Not all experts rely on biometrics. Ed Primeau, a Michigan-based audio engineer and forensics expert, is not a believer in the technology's use in courtroom settings.

He relies instead on audio enhancement and human analysis based on forensic experience. After listening closely to the 911 tape on which the screams are heard, Primeau also has a strong opinion.

"I believe that's Trayvon Martin in the background, without a doubt," Primeau says, stressing that the tone of the voice is a giveaway. "That's a young man screaming."

Rallies continued in Trayvon's hometown of Miami this weekend, and the Washington Post assembled a list of other recent deaths around the country with circumstances similar to Trayvon's.

Meanwhile, commentators on the right continue to downplay Trayvon's death and its implications. Ann Coulter told ABC this weekend that the case "has nothing to do with the 'Stand Your Ground' rule":

"The 'Stand Your Ground' law is only relevant if someone had the opportunity to retreat, and the law said that you don't have to retreat," she said. "In neither narrative is retreating an option. It has nothing to do with the 'Stand Your Ground' law. This is simple self-defense, on at least George Zimmerman's narrative."

Coulter is a lawyer, but she doesn't appear to be terribly familiar with the Florida self-defense law or its adjudication in state courts. As I explained on Countdown with Keith Olbermann last week, the law means a defendant doesn't have to prove self-defense, just argue it plausibly. That outcome, I argued, has "caused a lot of local police and law enforcers and a lot of local state's attorneys to just use their discretion and say, 'Well, look, if we can't get a solid conviction probability here, then what's the point of taking it to trial?'"

Alex Pareene of Salon has an excellent analysis of the right-wing reaction to the Trayvon case, and how criticizing the dead teen became a clarion call for conservatives. Also see two recent pieces from my colleague Adam Serwer, who was among the first to bring attention to the response of the far right.

UPDATE 36: Video walk-through of the scene where Trayvon Martin was shot: Questions abound

Joy-Ann Reid, managing editor of The Grio and an MSNBC contributor, has a fascinating video analysis of the townhouse development where George Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon Martin. It raises some serious questions about Zimmerman's account of the night, in which he claims to have spotted Trayvon while driving to the grocery store. That account in particular is difficult to explain when the physical layout of the area is analyzed. We've embedded the video here; take a look for yourself.

http://motherjones.com/politics/2012/03/what-happened-trayvon-martin-explained?page=1#fired

 

[busybody..]

MOTHERJONES?

MSNBC?

48% accurate?

 

[BoyNextDoor]

If this guy was not indited due to a "stand your ground" law that there is no way Zimmerman can be. Near the 7 minute mark you hear the guy rack his shotgun and shoot the thieves.


Hernando Riascos Torres and Diego Ortiz -- Pasadena, Texas (2007):

Torres, 38, and Ortiz, 30, were undocumented immigrants allegedly caught leaving the scene of a home burglary. Neighbor Joe Horn, 62, called 911. "I've got a shotgun," he told a dispatcher. "Do you want me to stop them?"

"Nope, don't do that," the dispatcher replied. "Ain't no property worth shooting somebody over, OK?"

But Horn ignored that advice. In his breathless 911 call, Horn can be heard opening his front door, racking his shotgun, and saying, "Hello. You're dead!" He shot Torres and Ortiz in the back, killing them both.

You can hear the fatal shots in the 911 recording:

Joe Horn

A grand jury declined to indict Horn, apparently believing his claim that he feared for his life, the Houston Chronicle reported.

 

[Dream59]

What if they were rolling around? Ive read articles that say witnesses also saw Zimmerman on top of Trayvon .. in a fight theres lots of back and forth.

Also, if he did slam his head into the concrete, wouldnt the concrete have blood from the fight? So ... assuming the police took photos of the scene, they should confirm Zimmermans story.

That is a lot of what ifs but even if they were rolling around, slamming someones head repeatedly into concrete would be considered a life threatening act, reguardless of what preceeded it.

I would assume the police took many photos, I know when I was an officer we all carried cameras for this purpose and The crime scene techs should have also taken photos. As it has been reported that it was raining I do not kow how much they would show, but if photos were not taken it is a terrible error on the part of the police and someones head should roll.

 

[Lorilei]

If this guy was not indited due to a "stand your ground" law that there is no way Zimmerman can be. Near the 7 minute mark you hear the guy rack his shotgun and shoot the thieves.


Hernando Riascos Torres and Diego Ortiz -- Pasadena, Texas (2007):

Torres, 38, and Ortiz, 30, were undocumented immigrants allegedly caught leaving the scene of a home burglary. Neighbor Joe Horn, 62, called 911. "I've got a shotgun," he told a dispatcher. "Do you want me to stop them?"

"Nope, don't do that," the dispatcher replied. "Ain't no property worth shooting somebody over, OK?"

But Horn ignored that advice. In his breathless 911 call, Horn can be heard opening his front door, racking his shotgun, and saying, "Hello. You're dead!" He shot Torres and Ortiz in the back, killing them both.

You can hear the fatal shots in the 911 recording:

Joe Horn

A grand jury declined to indict Horn, apparently believing his claim that he feared for his life, the Houston Chronicle reported.

So I can add Texas to my list of states to avoid. Awesome!

 

[Sean Renaud]

I'm sorry Sean I do not understand what you are saying.

If you wanted a trial, you'd be on myside of this argument. The only reason to debate against me in this is because you think Zimmerman should walk. No trial, what he and the cops did was 100% proper and a persons word should be legal proof of no-wrong doing.