Analogy to the Catholics being forced to pay for BC

[mikey2much]

wake up and get your head out of your cabinet

How's this for not an analogy: The stopgap plan is the government ordering the insurance companies to pay for the birth control.
Really? Government ordering a business to provide something to someone for free.
Do you actually support this? Do you really believe it's constitutional?

When government tells you that you have to buy something, the price goes up. Where in the hell do you figure that the ins companies aren't going to charge them for providing a service?

Check out the prices on car ins., baby car seats, or motorcylcle helmets, there aren't too many bargains on those things because there dosen't have to be. The public is forced to buy them, they have no choice. Why would any business do it for free?

 

[mikey2much]

I think the prists and bisops and such have a point though, and I can understand why they would be against birth control at any cost, because they don't need it. Alter boys don't get pregant.

 

[pornstarwannabe]

That's not what the government did at all. The government is mandating that insurance companies include reproductive health coverage as a component of the greater plan.

Okay, let me try this again. I quoted you but anyone can answer.

To create an analogy or similar situation (per my OP) that happened originally several weeks ago, we have to remember that Pres. Obama had originally mandated that catholic Institutions provide FREE BC. There was an uproar, and the Administration has since backed off. Now the compromise is that the Insurance companies will provide FREE BC.

We all get that.

Now... I am trying to create a similar situation that would be equally controversial, but instead of the Right accusing the Gov't of overreaching, it would be the Left.

So, I sate again:
Suppose there was a Small Business owner (an Atheist) that has to provide health insurance (or pay a fine). Okay. Now assume that Pres. Bush mandated that the Business Owner (all business, really) provide FREE Counseling whereby the counselors are member of the Clergy.

Am I the only one that sees the Gov't forcing an Atheist business owner to do this as unconstitutional?

 

[mercury14]

When government tells you that you have to buy something, the price goes up. Where in the hell do you figure that the ins companies aren't going to charge them for providing a service?

Check out the prices on car ins., baby car seats, or motorcylcle helmets, there aren't too many bargains on those things because there dosen't have to be. The public is forced to buy them, they have no choice. Why would any business do it for free?

Prices change in reaction to market supply and demand. But with insurance policies there is infinite supply. United Healthcare could insure the entire county.

Prices will not really go up for mandated contraception coverage since most plans already cover it. There will no longer be copayments, however insurance companies will save a lot of money not having to pay for prenatal care and 18+ years of a new family member's medical bills.

 

[mercury14]

To create an analogy or similar situation (per my OP) that happened originally several weeks ago, we have to remember that Pres. Obama had originally mandated that catholic Institutions provide FREE BC. There was an uproar, and the Administration has since backed off. Now the compromise is that the Insurance companies will provide FREE BC.

No this is incorrect. Catholic institutions are not mandated to provide free birth control. They're not even mandated to provide insurance of any kind.

Obama didn't mandate anything, he signed a bill. Birth control was put into the 'preventative care' bucket in the Affordable Care Act along with things like immunizations, coloscopies, checkups for babies, and mammograms. These are things that must be covered at minimum. There's nothing free about it though since the cost of all coverage is factored into the overall price of a plan. The law says coverage for preventative care shall not include co-payments, therefore the cost is diffused through the pool.

The administration never backed off. That's the point the bishops are making: the compromise didn't mean much and they're right.

We all get that.

No you still don't.

Now... I am trying to create a similar situation that would be equally controversial, but instead of the Right accusing the Gov't of overreaching, it would be the Left.

So, I sate again:
Suppose there was a Small Business owner (an Atheist) that has to provide health insurance (or pay a fine). Okay. Now assume that Pres. Bush mandated that the Business Owner (all business, really) provide FREE Counseling whereby the counselors are member of the Clergy.

Am I the only one that sees the Gov't forcing an Atheist business owner to do this as unconstitutional?

It's not in the government's power to force business owners (atheist or otherwise) to provide counseling (free or otherwise).

 

[ksmybuttons]

According to your analogy, the Catholic Church was mandated to pay for birth control. Now, my employer does not pay for any of my health care outside of my insurance. (I don't know why people would think the Church would be paying out of pocket, except they do have very deep pockets since they don't pay taxes and they could be self insured due to their extreme wealth...) Anyway, only a certain percentage of people would use the birth control benefit.

My work offers an employee assistance (counseling) program such as your first example. I do not consider my self religious. and I don't work for a religious organization. Counselors are available from Catholic, Jewish and Lutheran organizations. I would probably not avail myself of the religious counseling but I respect those who wish to use those options and do not begrudge them having the option as it fits their beliefs.

The minute you put individual beliefs into health care you set up ethical dilemmas. Most of the time they are decisions that should be left up to the individual accessing the services in conjunction with their care provider.

I don't believe people with chronic conditions should be kept alive. I believe they should be kept comfortable and at their highest level of function until they don't. Should my belief override yours if you want everything possible done to keep you alive?

 

[pornstarwannabe]

No this is incorrect. Catholic institutions are not mandated to provide free birth control. They're not even mandated to provide insurance of any kind.

Obama didn't mandate anything, he signed a bill. Birth control was put into the 'preventative care' bucket in the Affordable Care Act along with things like immunizations, coloscopies, checkups for babies, and mammograms. These are things that must be covered at minimum. There's nothing free about it though since the cost of all coverage is factored into the overall price of a plan. The law says coverage for preventative care shall not include co-payments, therefore the cost is diffused through the pool.

The administration never backed off. That's the point the bishops are making: the compromise didn't mean much and they're right.




No you still don't.




It's not in the government's power to force business owners (atheist or otherwise) to provide counseling (free or otherwise).

If you Google the story, the original hoopla was caused by this: Link

Call it what you will, but the NBC/CBS/ABC are all in agreement as to why the hoopla started,. It's in the link. Read it. I'll believe the Big 3 over you.

That being said, the controversy was what it was. According to this link, you can read the quote:
"The President announced that religious employers will not be required to offer free birth control to workers.

Instead, insurance carriers will have to offer the free coverage."

Certainly you must all agree what started the controversy, and you can see how the Administration backed off.

That being said, If a President wanted to Force Non-religious employers (Atheist for example) to supply a healthcare item fee of charge at their expense (pick any item you wish, does not matter to me, but pick one), and that healthcare item would be administered by Clergy (I picked counseling because Clergy are excellent counselors and can do no wrong), the LEFT would be up in arms. As would the ACLU.

In this situation it is analogous to what happened with Religious employers (read the links) - employers being forced to do something that conflicts with their beliefs.

 

[mercury14]

If you Google the story, the original hoopla was caused by this: Link

Call it what you will, but the NBC/CBS/ABC are all in agreement as to why the hoopla started,. It's in the link. Read it. I'll believe the Big 3 over you.

That being said, the controversy was what it was. According to this link, you can read the quote:
"The President announced that religious employers will not be required to offer free birth control to workers.

Instead, insurance carriers will have to offer the free coverage."

Certainly you must all agree what started the controversy, and you can see how the Administration backed off.

That being said, If a President wanted to Force Non-religious employers (Atheist for example) to supply a healthcare item fee of charge at their expense (pick any item you wish, does not matter to me, but pick one), and that healthcare item would be administered by Clergy (I picked counseling because Clergy are excellent counselors and can do no wrong), the LEFT would be up in arms. As would the ACLU.

In this situation it is analogous to what happened with Religious employers (read the links) - employers being forced to do something that conflicts with their beliefs.

Your link is outdated. It's an article written immediately after Obama's "compromise" before conservatives and the Catholic Church could rightly reject it as not a compromise. Not sure if you read your own article, but Obama denying the Catholic Church a religious exception doesn't really sound like "backing off the mandate" to me.

That being said, If a President wanted to Force Non-religious employers (Atheist for example) to supply a healthcare item fee of charge at their expense (pick any item you wish, does not matter to me, but pick one), and that healthcare item would be administered by Clergy (I picked counseling because Clergy are excellent counselors and can do no wrong), the LEFT would be up in arms. As would the ACLU.

In your unconstitutional, impossible, imaginary scenario, every American should be up in arms. The government forcing its people to receive religious services against their will is a policy fit for the Iranian theocracy.

In this situation it is analogous to what happened with Religious employers (read the links) - employers being forced to do something that conflicts with their beliefs.

It's not analogous at all. You're comparing something legal with something illegal/unconstitutional/impossible. Your comparison nonsense.

 

[mufdive4u]

You are off base. The real issue that has conservatives pissed off is the mandate period. Goverment should not be forcing private companies, institutions, or organizations to buy any goods or services. If they would get out of the health insurance business and let us buy our own insurance from any company we want like we do car insurances, then people could buy the coverage they wanted. Competition would drive down prices and improve service just like it has in the auto and home insurance industry. As for birth control pills. Give me a fucking break. Go to Walmart and buy thier $4 generics. When did it become the responsibility of the productive Americans to fund non essential medicine. If you chose to attend or work at a Catholic organization then you knew they didn't provide bc. If you don't like it quit. If the catholic organization can't get the employees they need because of they policies then they will have to change. That is how the free market works.

 

[Stewart_Pidd]

You are off base. The real issue that has conservatives pissed off is the mandate period. Goverment should not be forcing private companies, institutions, or organizations to buy any goods or services. If they would get out of the health insurance business and let us buy our own insurance from any company we want like we do car insurances, then people could buy the coverage they wanted. Competition would drive down prices and improve service just like it has in the auto and home insurance industry. As for birth control pills. Give me a fucking break. Go to Walmart and buy thier $4 generics. When did it become the responsibility of the productive Americans to fund non essential medicine. If you chose to attend or work at a Catholic organization then you knew they didn't provide bc. If you don't like it quit. If the catholic organization can't get the employees they need because of they policies then they will have to change. That is how the free market works.

you're smart bro

Stew

 

[mikey2much]

whats the difference

What is the difference between making churches provide birth control and making me support wars that I don't believe in. I mean I smoke pot as a lifestyle, yet my tax dollars are spent on the 'war on drugs'.

I think Israel is a police state and should be held accountable for the way the palestinians are treated but I send my tax dollars to support the jewish state.

In the first case I am forced to go against my own self interest, in the second case I am forced to go against my conscience. Yet I didn't start to rant and rave like the churches did. You tell me what is worst, making me pay for killing people and putting my own liberty at risk or helping people out with their healthcare?

You guys on the right are so fucked up.